Batfamily Explosion!

[oasis1313]

DC should never have allowed Dick Grayson to age--at all. 10-14 years old forever. We'd miss out on how hunky he grew up to be, but there wouldn't be the problem with aging all the characters--leave 'em all ageless.

[TheDarkKnightReturns]

Eww, no thanks. Barbara Gordon is a terrible Batgirl. She was best as Oracle. Bruce needs a daughter, which is Cassandra's role. Stephanie is the best Batgirl. Catwoman is Batman's main love interest, so she should be part of the family. Alfred, Leslie, Gordon and Lucius all belong as part of the Family, too. Jason Todd and Damian are both unnecessary, though.

So characters that are more interesting than Catwoman are ''unnecessary'' ? Batman own son and adopted sons are ''unnecessary'' ? And you are still wondering why Catwoman went so wrong since the start of the New 52 ?

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

DC should never have allowed Dick Grayson to age--at all. 10-14 years old forever. We'd miss out on how hunky he grew up to be, but there wouldn't be the problem with aging all the characters--leave 'em all ageless.

I'd rather have him 10 years as a kid training at the batcave and 10 a teenager sidekick and 10 as a college student with the titans. By the time the next crisis resets the whole thing, you don't even need a Robin II.

[EdwardNigma]

There's too many, I'd say myself.Bat,man for me works as as few Bat characters as possible in a movie. There is no way they will ever IMHO make a Batman movie down the road with that many Batfamily characters.

Completely agree!!!

[catbatfan]

DC should never have allowed Dick Grayson to age--at all. 10-14 years old forever. We'd miss out on how hunky he grew up to be, but there wouldn't be the problem with aging all the characters--leave 'em all ageless.

So basically you're interested in a Simpsons version of Batman? No thanks. I am invested in seeing these grow and change (and grow up). An ageless Robin would be just as bland, boring and static as Batman is now. The supporting cast gets to experience character development that ageless characters like Batman never get, and that is what interests me as a reader.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

So basically you're interested in a Simpsons version of Batman? No thanks. I am invested in seeing these grow and change (and grow up). An ageless Robin would be just as bland, boring and static as Batman is now. The supporting cast gets to experience character development that ageless characters like Batman never get, and that is what interests me as a reader.

Dick has lived though different things, but his character is generally the same. Also, it's not like Tim has grown up so much, which doesn't even make sense with Jason returning as a young adult. Same with Cass and Steph.

[SiegePerilous02]

I really don't think any of DC's major characters benefit too much from heavy continuity and storyline advancements. They're more meant to be enjoyed by younger audiences before said audience moves on to other things and leave them behind for others. The Batman vs. Joker conflict is extremely played out for a lot of us, but that's more on us for continuing to read the comics. A Joker story is always going to be new to somebody, just not us any longer. That's why, even though the Bat-mythos is my favorite, I've branched out to other superheroes or Indie publishers instead of demanding radical change from a franchise that is under no obligation to do so.

[CapeandCowl]

Oh yes I agree with your comment about the Joker. I have read and viewed a varied degree of Joker stories in my time, but feel there is little to gain for us older fans by continually bringing him out and doing a dance for the Batman. New fans might like it, though,so again we are in agreement.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

I really don't think any of DC's major characters benefit too much from heavy continuity and storyline advancements. They're more meant to be enjoyed by younger audiences before said audience moves on to other things and leave them behind for others. The Batman vs. Joker conflict is extremely played out for a lot of us, but that's more on us for continuing to read the comics. A Joker story is always going to be new to somebody, just not us any longer. That's why, even though the Bat-mythos is my favorite, I've branched out to other superheroes or Indie publishers instead of demanding radical change from a franchise that is under no obligation to do so.

The superhero tradition is static. It's not that Batman is becoming like the Simpsons, the Simpsons are following the model of superheroes. There are isolated, author-owned universes in which aging can even be done in real time, but that's not the deal with shared universes with many writers and editors like Marvel of DC.

And I'm not totally closed to the idea. With the New 52 or the past continuity, wouldn't be fair. But if the reboot is well planed and the progress is sheduled before hand. The fair thing would be:

YEAR - Debuts - Vibe
1 Batman, Superman, John Jones, Slam, Dr. Ocult, Spirit - 30s pulp
2 Green Arrow, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Dick Grayson, Black Canary, Catwoman, Captain Marvel, Plastic Man, Zatara - 40s golden age
3 Martian Manhunter, Pantom Stranger, Detective Chimp, Rex, Dr. Thirteen, Challengers of the Unknown, King Faraday, Doom Patrol, Swamp Thing - 50s horror, aliens and EC
4 Flash, Adam Strange, Robin, Green Lantern, Speedy, Elongated Man, Kid Flash, Hawkman, Atom, Hawkgirl, JLA - 60s New Frontier, silver age
5 Metamorpho, Animal Man, Zatanna, Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, the Question, Enchantress, Batgirl, Dolphin, Creeper, the Demon, Teen Titans - A bit more psychedelic 60s
12 Tim
15 Steph
25 Reboot again

So that the new generation has the chance to get the big picture. In the mean time, years 1 to 15, Tim could be seen in an Earth in which Batman died or got old. If it was up to me, I'd give the job to some fanfic writer, precisely the same kind of people that have a romantic idea of "the adopted daughter of Batman", so that people end up hating the characters and realizing how lame they are .

[oasis1313]

So basically you're interested in a Simpsons version of Batman? No thanks. I am invested in seeing these grow and change (and grow up). An ageless Robin would be just as bland, boring and static as Batman is now. The supporting cast gets to experience character development that ageless characters like Batman never get, and that is what interests me as a reader.

When you have "ageless" characters versus characters who are allowed to "age" means that eventually you have Bruce Wayne still at the "eternal 29" while Dick Grayson and Jason Todd are dead of old age, Tim Drake incontinent and drooling in a nursing home, and Damian Wayne taking out the pool at Wayne Manor and putting in a Lazarus Pit.

[John Venus]

Eww, no thanks. Barbara Gordon is a terrible Batgirl. She was best as Oracle. Bruce needs a daughter, which is Cassandra's role. Stephanie is the best Batgirl. Catwoman is Batman's main love interest, so she should be part of the family. Alfred, Leslie, Gordon and Lucius all belong as part of the Family, too. Jason Todd and Damian are both unnecessary, though.

Oh please, Steph as Batgirl was a sad attempt to have a Babs esque Batgirl without putting the actual Babs in the suit. Steph had a few things that set her apart but at the end of the day I don't need a poor man's substitute for Babs Batgirl. Classic Babs Batgirl (not the Nu 52 version) was genuinely amazing and fun. Cass was fun because she was a totally different Batgirl than Babs with a different focus.

So,

Barbara,
Dick,
Jason.

Two more? Tim and Damian.

That`s pretty much the core "Bat Family" you have now. Everyone else, save Alfred, is used for supportive system, a system created by Bruce that comes from the Pulp genre (The Shadow). It`s just a network of agents.

No Jason.

Just Babs, Dick and Tim. Then you have Lucius, Alfred and Leslie acting as the supporting characters. Then add in Cass and Kate Kane for the 'two others' slot. Finally, you've got my preferred Gotham crew.

After that just divide the remaining characters like Huntress and Azrael into 'Birds of Prey' and 'The Outsiders' who operate outside of Gotham.

[Agent Z]

Mmmmmmm no... I have to say no. I'm not a fan of either, but it's quite clear that the roar is for Steph. I could grant you that enough comic book fans would prefer her to Barbara as Batgirl, a number that diminishes as time passes. However, as either Oracle or Batgirl, Barbara, like Dick, Tim, Steph and (I dare to say) even Damian, is way more popular than Cass. Sorry, but that's the true. Kill Cass only a few early 00s fans would cry, kill Dick and poor Dan might get beaten on the streets (or the aisles of the convention centers).

And no, if Morrison was such a fan, he would have done more than including her in a cameo. Let's say DC hates her more than Ralph Dibny or Wally West (actually, it's quite probable)... in the end, Snyder did create one more female Batman sidekick that pushes Cass further aside.

I think even Damian would kick her ass.

Okay, I know you don't like Cass but is it really necessary to just dismiss her fans like this? Every character is someone else's favorite and Cass still has a considerably large fanbase. Here's proof if you need it:

http://www.themarysue.com/the-batfam...assandra-cain/
http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-...assandra-cain/

You're right about DC hating her though.

[DjessNL]

My Dream Bat-Family takes place after the death of Bruce Wayne (and the Joker is also gone, but that's another story)

It consists of Dickbats, in an almost pre-Beyond suit that has a blue rather then red bat on it's chest and is less sleek. His Robin is Carrie Kelly, in a modern design. Batmobile similair to Arkham Knight. The Blue is symbolic aswell, because Bruce's bat was yellow.. and where as he was the bringer of fear, Dick will be the bringer of hope.

Calvin Rose will take up the Nightwing persona. This was a hard choice for me, because I REALLY like Cheyenne Freemont but Calvin Rose would fit the role better, both storywise and once again, symbolic. Dick could've been a Talon, but what if a Talon becomes Nightwing? He could have a Cassandra Cain-like character arc, dealing with killing and such.

Bane has broken Batgirl's back, so we will have the return of Oracle, who will be Dick's Alfred. There will be more interaction with Batwoman, and Huntress, former SPYRAL agent has followed Dick and is now the Huntress.

Now.. In the fall-out of Bruce's death, there is.. a splitoff fraction of the Bat-Family. Jason and Damian will feature in Batman and Robin as Wingman and Redbird. Tim Drake will temporarily take up the Red X persona, until he later becomes the new Blue Beetle.

Characters who I love but who we won't see for a big part of this ''story'' (which will be more like.. a run) are Stephanie Brown, Cassandra Caine, Bluebird, Batwing, and Hawkfire aswell as lesser heroes such as Veil, Cheyenne Freemont and such. Depending on Lark's identity, I may add him to my line-up, even if just to even out the male-to-female ratio. But yeah. Hope you enjoyed reading.

[Lorendiac]

What's your thoughts on the increasing ranks in the Batfamily? There's a lot of characters:
Batman
Dick Grayson
Batgirl
Red Robin
Red Hood
Batwoman
Hawkfire
Batwing
Huntress - Helena Wayne... If Earth 2 meets it's World's End, will she find herself back on Prime Earth?

Upcoming:
Spoiler
Robin - ?
Bluebird
Lark - ?
Julia Pennyworth - will she take a crimefighting role?

And this doesn't even cover the potential of Cassandra Cain showing up in the future or Helena Bertinelli joining Dick Grayson in some costumed crimefighting once Grayson runs its course. The ranks keep growing and I have to admit that I love it. I was never a fan of the 90s deal of cutting back on the characters so there was just Batman, Nightwing and Robin, to "make Batman seem special." I like a big cast of costumes and the soap opera drama, if they're well developed and given a chance to shine in their own way. Batman Eternal has made me appreciate the mix of different characters showing up and interacting together. Instead of repetitive, I find it intriguing as they are all a different shade of Batman thematically.

Gotham rooftops are busy, and I'm all the happier for it.

I'm just reacting to the original post before I take a look at all the other replies this thread has already acquired.

A few months ago, right after these boards had been rebooted, someone started a thread asking for opinions about how we would reboot Batman (and his "Batman Family") if it were all up to us -- we could have a free hand from DC to trim away anything we felt was no longer necessary! Here was my idea for "a streamlined version":

Bruce is Batman. He has been for several years as we "tune in" to his rebooted continuity in new comic book stories.

Dick used to be Robin, but now he isn't. He's Nightwing, based in New York, working with the Titans, and almost never does anything in Gotham City or any of the Batman books.

Tim is the second Robin.

Barbara Gordon used to be Batgirl. Now she's too busy as a Congresswoman in Washington, D.C.

Cassandra Cain is starting her training to qualify her to take over the role of Batgirl.

None of the other costumed figures of the Pre-Flashpoint versions of the "family" have ever existed. (Or if they exist, they have never yet put on costumes and done any superhero stuff -- they are just living offstage somewhere, until further notice.) Kathy Kane, Bette Kane, Jason Todd, Damian, Jean Paul Valley, Stephanie Brown, etc.

That would trim it down to 1 Batman, 1 Robin, and 1 Batgirl currently on "active duty," running around in costume every night in Gotham City, with such old friends as Dick and Babs only showing up onstage in a Batman title once in a blue moon. (Say, every 100th issue, or something.)

That does not mean I have no affection in my heart for any of the other characters who have been affiliated with the Batman Family at some point, but it does mean that I think it's about time to clear away a lot of clutter to make Batman's continuity a heck of a lot more user-friendly for new readers who don't know and don't care what was happening back in the Silver Age, or the Bronze Age, or the 1990s, or whatever. Superman and Wonder Woman have been "rebooted" from time to time, for much the same reason, so why shouldn't Batman get equal treatment?

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Okay, I know you don't like Cass but is it really necessary to just dismiss her fans like this? Every character is someone else's favorite and Cass still has a considerably large fanbase. Here's proof if you need it:

http://www.themarysue.com/the-batfam...assandra-cain/
http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-...assandra-cain/

You're right about DC hating her though.

It wan't really necessary, but what I said is true and the logical thing to think when someone calls her the only kid Batman needs. In popularity, despite her loyal following, she comes after the rest of the Battie Bunch. At this point probably even Jason is more popular. Her popularity is so bad, if DC threw her a bone, she'd probably had to fight Ace for it. The publishers don't like her, writers are not doing much for her, she has a thin history, she makes a property less iconic, no other media presence, in universe she is a middle child in an overcrowded show. No way she is the only kid Batman need (he doesn't need a kid to begin with) Face it, she is screwd. And that comes from someone who likes screwed characters... unless they are legacies.

If I was DiDio I wouldn't know what to do with her. She does have a nice following, but a publisher that owns characters needs to stick with iconic characters and invest on them as properties. Hell, if it was up to me Dick would be Robin, if he gets old all black with a red wing is a good way to go, no name changing needed. I'd probably have to create an Earth-# focusing on them with Bruce dead. Whatever I do, I certainly wouldn't let writers create more of them. The Batcave has become a Mary Sue factory. No wonder one of those links that supposedly "prove" Cass' popularity is called The Mary Sue.

I'm just reacting to the original post before I take a look at all the other replies this thread has already acquired.

A few months ago, right after these boards had been rebooted, someone started a thread asking for opinions about how we would reboot Batman (and his "Batman Family") if it were all up to us -- we could have a free hand from DC to trim away anything we felt was no longer necessary! Here was my idea for "a streamlined version":

Bruce is Batman. He has been for several years as we "tune in" to his rebooted continuity in new comic book stories.

Dick used to be Robin, but now he isn't. He's Nightwing, based in New York, working with the Titans, and almost never does anything in Gotham City or any of the Batman books.

Tim is the second Robin.

Barbara Gordon used to be Batgirl. Now she's too busy as a Congresswoman in Washington, D.C.

Cassandra Cain is starting her training to qualify her to take over the role of Batgirl.

None of the other costumed figures of the Pre-Flashpoint versions of the "family" have ever existed. (Or if they exist, they have never yet put on costumes and done any superhero stuff -- they are just living offstage somewhere, until further notice.) Kathy Kane, Bette Kane, Jason Todd, Damian, Jean Paul Valley, Stephanie Brown, etc.

That would trim it down to 1 Batman, 1 Robin, and 1 Batgirl currently on "active duty," running around in costume every night in Gotham City, with such old friends as Dick and Babs only showing up onstage in a Batman title once in a blue moon. (Say, every 100th issue, or something.)

That does not mean I have no affection in my heart for any of the other characters who have been affiliated with the Batman Family at some point, but it does mean that I think it's about time to clear away a lot of clutter to make Batman's continuity a heck of a lot more user-friendly for new readers who don't know and don't care what was happening back in the Silver Age, or the Bronze Age, or the 1990s, or whatever. Superman and Wonder Woman have been "rebooted" from time to time, for much the same reason, so why shouldn't Batman get equal treatment?

Let me try it. 10 years into Batman's career, from closer to more distant:

Alfred: Batman's main partner and accomplice, he helps from the cave. He has the military training of the later versions, without sacrificing the charm of the previous.
Gordon: Batman's main ally and contact with the world.
Dick Grayson. Current and only Robin. He is now a young adult. Leader of the Titans, lives in NYC, teams up with Batman quite often and wears the post-flashpoint Nightwing uniform. Because those are the colors of a Robin.
Catwoman: A thief who often runs into Batman. They play games.
Lucius: The Q. Bruce supplies Batman, but he does it through Lucius, who is in charge of Wayne Enterprises and it's technological innovations.
Barbara Gordon: Current Batgirl. However, she is quite irregular with her uniform, she mostly operates behind a screen. Batgirl sounds like an internet name, anyway.
Ace: A hound Batman has in the cave and sometimes uses as a sort of police hound. Not much to him.
Bullock and Montoya: They became an allies of Batman, Gordon assigns them to the cases Batman is working. Bullock is unorthodox and all gut, Montoya is extremely orthodox and all common sense. Pretty much the animated versions.
Chief O'Hara: He runs the police department's daily operations so he often helps Batman and Gordon.
Lessile Thompins: Batman's surrogate mother figure and reluctant ally. On her terms, she runs the Wayne Foundation and, as a trauma doctor he takes care of Bruce's health issues. She is a bit more distant than the others.
Vicky Vale and Alexander Knox: Batman's main contacts from the press.

Other recurring contacts: Summmer Gleeson, Jeremiah Arkham, Mayor Linseed and then Hamilton Hill, Kirk Langstrom, Father Michael Stromwell, Professor Carter Nichols, Batmite, Joe Potato.

Related heroes operating in other cities:
Huntress (Helena Wayne from E2): Bludhaven (I kind of see her as a Jersey girl).
Azrael: JPV grew up in Gotham, but now lives in some fake French city.

And if death treats arise:
Sparrow: Tim training in a Happy Harbor boarding school
Spoiler: Maybe far. In Gotham's equivalent of Westchester. Away. Batman hates her. About 0 contact.
Redbird: Jason... He didn't make it. Way too red, and not fast enough. We'll always remember him, with the costume in the glass, behind the Tyrannosaurus.