Being to powerful is actually detrimental to a heroes storytelling potential.

[The Darknight Detective]

Wonder Woman is the child of gods, it doesn't really make sense to base her strength on our human context. Even with Kryptonians, there are plenty of species where the roles are flipped and females are stronger.

Understood and I don't disagree, but creators (and readers of both genders decades ago) just accepted, as in the real world, that the male superheroes would be stronger than the female ones.

[Rightoya]

Except Captain Marvel was actually shown as strong or even stronger than Superman (as shown in DC comics presents 49 against Black Adam).

So what do you take as a proof? Sorry, your opinion isn't proof.

You are in the Bronze Age again, and i have to say almost nobody would believe Billy was on par with Superman in the Silver Age.

Do you want me to give you an overview about how DC mistreated Wonder Woman for literal decaes, examples for sexism from DC back then, examples of Superman being their golden child back then, or what exactly are you asking for?

[Rightoya]

It's less politics or anything else, but based on reality - women are physically weaker than men. It's understandable that they were presented as such, even if anything is possible fictionally. Now if men and women were equal in strength and still were portrayed the way you state in comics, then you would have a valid point.

Wait, are you telling me DC ever gave such a crazy statement as justification for their political decisions in fiction? I don't think people even all the way back in the 1940s were unable to understand that:

- Superman and Wonder Woman are neither humans nor even from the same species.

- Superman and Wonder Woman don't gain their strength from their muscles, but from alien physiology, the sun, magic, and so on.

- Wonder Woman was supposed to be a completely fictional character specifically as strong as Superman, and was so blatantly portrayed as such, that they even let her replicate quite a few of Superman's most iconic feats to make it clear.

- That there existed since thousands of years fiction with woman that are as strong or stronger than men already, i don't think even the least educated men in ancient times assumed they were stronger than goddesses or the likes, and specifically the Amazons are even an ancient myth about superhuman women.

- And this point is surely a lot less true for the 1940s than it's nowadays, but even in reality exist some women that are stronger than men, and men that are weaker than women.

[The Darknight Detective]

You are in the Bronze Age again, and i have to say almost nobody would believe Billy was on par with Superman in the Silver Age.

Captain Marvel was never around during the Silver Age, FWIW. During the Bronze Age, he was clearly comparable to Superman in the comics. It was post-COIE when things changed.

[The Darknight Detective]

Wait, are you telling me DC ever gave such a crazy statement as justification for their political decisions in fiction? I don't think people even all the way back in the 1940s were unable to understand that:

- Superman and Wonder Woman are neither humans nor even from the same race.

- Superman and Wonder Woman don't gain their strength from their muscles, but from alien physiology, the sun, magic, and so on.

- Wonder Woman was supposed to be a completely fictional character specifically as strong as Superman, and was so blatantly portrayed as such, that they even let her replicate quite a few of Superman's most iconic feats to make it clear.

- That there existed since thousands of years fiction with woman that are as strong or stronger than men already, i don't think even the least educated men in ancient times assumed they were stronger than goddesses or the likes, and specifically the Amazons are even an ancient myth about superhuman women.

- And this point is surely a lot less true for the 1940s than it's nowadays, but even in reality exist some women that are stronger than men, and men that are weaker than women.

The vast majority of fiction has portrayed women as weaker than men for millennia. Yes, there are exceptions, but there is a reason why they are defined that way. It's only recently that the tide has changed. At any rate, the idea that DC was doing something different from other companies is simply not correct.

[Rightoya]

Captain Marvel was never around during the Silver Age, FWIW. During the Bronze Age, he was clearly comparable to Superman in the comics. It was post-COIE when things changed.

Oh sorry you are right i confused it and thought DC bought him in the 1960s, but it was in the 1970s, in the Silver Age was he still on ice at Fawcett Comics.

[The Darknight Detective]

Oh sorry you are right i confused it and thought DC bought him in the 1960s, but it was in the 1970s, in the Silver Age was he still on ice at Fawcett Comics.

No problems. I only made my post because I wasn't sure how you defined the Silver Age, since some people (incorrectly) use it interchangeably with the Bronze Age.

[Rightoya]

The vast majority of fiction has portrayed women as weaker than men for millennia. Yes, there are exceptions, but there is a reason why they are defined that way. It's only recently that the tide has changed. At any rate, the idea that DC was doing something different from other companies is simply not correct.

Right, but Wonder Woman was specifically created to be a counter point to that, which is what i meant with DC screwed her over and betrayed what she stands for.

Hold on, why do you think i would think DC made something different from other companies? I am well aware that most if not all companies back than were sexist, many companies in and outside of the entertainment sector were more or less incompetent at times, and that most companies made many questionable or outright bad decision in their history, sometimes political and sometimes for other reasons. Marvel is of course just as bad, and others too.

[The Darknight Detective]

Right, but Wonder Woman was specifically created to be a counter point to that, which is what i meant with DC screwed her over and betrayed what she stands for.

Did Marston ever portray her as strong or stronger than her male super-counterparts? I can't think of a GA story offhand, but I haven't read all of them. At any rate, I'm certainly all for her being comparable.

Hold on, why do you think i would think DC made something different from other companies? I am well aware that most if not all companies back than were sexist, many companies in and outside of the entertainment sector were more or less incompetent at times, and that most companies made questionable or outright bad decision, sometimes political and sometimes for other reasons. Marvel is of course just as bad, and others too.

Okay, I thought you were singling out DC. My apologies.

[SiegePerilous02]

Characters from those shows were ported to the comics, they modernized Superman instead of repeating Chris Reeves, and they made Clark likable and popular as a person, not just as a tank. Critics view the first and third seasons of STAS as more consistently great than B:TAS. It's just that B:TAS debuted on Fox Primetime, while S:TAS was a Saturday morning cartoon. Tim Daly and Tom Welling are still appreciated, and I can only imagine how much lower in popularity the Superman brand would be today if it weren't for those shows.

It might very well be lower. It may also be higher. How many solo superhero cartoons do we have where the producer says the main character isn't as good as another character (Batman in this case)?

Like we haven't gotten a Wonder Woman cartoon yet, but if/when we do I hope they don't say anything like "she's harder to make relevant than Superman or Batman, but eh we'll see what we can do."

[Rightoya]

Did Marston ever portray her as strong or stronger than her male super-counterparts? I can't think of a GA story offhand, but I haven't read all of them. At any rate, I'm certainly all for her being comparable.



Okay, I thought you were singling out DC. My apologies.

Yeah he usually portrayed her even as stronger than the male superhumans in his comics, and Wonder Woman specifically replicated many of Superman's most iconic feats in her early days, i would say Marston tried really hard to portray what he also described in an article from 1943:

"Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power... The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman."


No worries, i was criticizing DC pretty harshy in this thread after all.

[PCN24454]

Wonder Woman is the child of gods, it doesn't really make sense to base her strength on our human context. Even with Kryptonians, there are plenty of species where the roles are flipped and females are stronger.

Actually, in the original myths, Heracles was actually an anomaly in terms of strength. Most demigods didn’t have any special powers from their DNA. They only came with the prestige of having such important parents.

[Rightoya]

But i also want to talk about another point that got made in this thread. Can someone explain to me, why Smallville should be a good example that allegedly overpowered characters should be less powerful?

Clark wasn't even truly Superman for a big part of the series, grew in power, and reached a point where he pushed Apokolips through space as Superman:

https://streamable.com/8j99zq

[Alan2099]

Being overpowerful isn't a trouble for manga characters. But maybe is a cultural problem.

Manga doesn't have to worry about Lupin III, Goku, and Vash the Stampede standing side by side and being viewed as equals.

[PCN24454]

Manga doesn't have to worry about Lupin III, Goku, and Vash the Stampede standing side by side and being viewed as equals.

Don't forget that they sh*t all over physics.

Luffy has the same powers as Elongated Man yet they're portrayed on two totally different levels. Being human means nothing in the face of training.