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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    There comes a point when something which happened thousands of years ago stop beings a valid reason to foster a sexist and isolationist society in my eyes. That's as simple as that. And, again, if writers truly insist to make the Amazons sexists, then at the very least they shouldn't be warriors ! Make them entirely peaceful and have Diana learning how to fight in "Man's World" precisely because it's so corrupt that she can't help by simply being herself, enlightened and emphatic. With her powers and abilities, no matter their origin, she wouldn't need to be an expert fighter when she arrives to be affective, and considering that the Amazons could have taught her a real ability to focus on things to achieve them, she could learn fighting styles really fast (and, frankly, DC isn't realy great at depicting that she is more than a flying brick nowadays, anyway...).

    But if peoples insists for the Amazons to be an isolationnist society based on segregation which see battle prowesses as great. I'm sorry but I don't want that kind of society being put in a good light. And that said members of said society are all women who have suffered abuses before isn't an excuse to present that kind of society in a good light. That's why Diana's mythos is fundamentaly flawed and Marston work, while certainly enlightened in his time, has become extremely problematic in today's world. At least for me, it does.
    But like Gaius said, they were the very women who were enslaved and raped before, and you don't have a realistic basis to compare what the psychology of an immortal, ageless woman would be like. They could remember it like it was yesterday. Nobody has the right to tell them (or any rape victim) to essentially "get over it," least of all men who have literally the entire rest of the world to live in while the Amazons have one corner to themselves where they aren't harming anybody while they are left alone. This also ignores the fact that stories have been published where they've decided to communicate with the outside world despite their hesitation and facing various challenges as a result of that. This is what makes them nuanced characters instead of one note, flat monsters the New 52 made them. See also Philippus angrily saying they should throw Steve back into the see considering the last time she saw a man and the stressful manner in which he crashed, and then cooling down and apologizing to him later. This is more layered and interesting than a culture that has a tendency to toss male babies off cliffs or dish out cliché threats of castration to even Hermes.

    Even real life warrior based cultures have more nuance than that depiction. And there is no logic in saying they can't be warriors and enlightened in other areas. Wise warriors are common in sci-fi/fantasy fiction (Yoda being the obvious example), plus they have had thousands of years to explore different fields of study, there is no justifiable reason to nerf them. Any reasoning here is on very shaky ground.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 11-21-2020 at 03:33 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    This isn't simply a use of Latin to sound cool.

    When a society starts to believe that they have to be prepared to war against enemies they revile and consider particularly dangerous, a true blight on the world, then, sooner rather than later, toxicity and brutality will take over anything else and they'll feel the need to go to war or to ever greater length to prevent those peoples from ever approaching them. And the Amazons' beliefs are well documented, and fall right into this type of toxic ideology. They largely hate Men as a whole and consider them terrible peoples who destroy the world. Men. Not Humans, Men precisely. They live in an isolated island and segregate entirely from half of the world's population because this half happened to have another set of chromosomes.
    The only version of the Amazons that behaved like this were the Azzarello versions. You keep talking about the toxic ideology of the Amazons while ignoring that only one iteration of them has acted this way. There have been multiple stories about the Amazons reestablishing communication with the outside world. It seems like you dislike the Amazons so much you deliberately ignore any and all evidence they aren't the monsters you say they are.

    And I have no idea how you think using that Latin phrase was some kind of "gotcha" moment. That's exactly what the Amazons do. The point of that phrase is that peace is not constant and those who want peace should be ready to fight for it when it is threatened. In other words, what any sane country does. But you seem to think the Amazons did nothing but train for war when that is not the case so I expect this little tidbit to fall on deaf ears as well.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    There comes a point when something which happened thousands of years ago stop beings a valid reason to foster a sexist and isolationist society in my eyes. That's as simple as that. And, again, if writers truly insist to make the Amazons sexists, then at the very least they shouldn't be warriors ! Make them entirely peaceful and have Diana learning how to fight in "Man's World" precisely because it's so corrupt that she can't help by simply being herself, enlightened and emphatic.
    By your own logic, it would be impossible for Diana to be like this because a sexist, isolationist society cannot be enlightened or empathetic.

    (and, frankly, DC isn't realy great at depicting that she is more than a flying brick nowadays, anyway...).
    A problem that also started with the New 52. Seeing a pattern here?

    But if peoples insists for the Amazons to be an isolationnist society based on segregation which see battle prowesses as great.
    I'll stop you right there. No one is insisting on that except, ironically enough, you.


    I'm sorry but I don't want that kind of society being put in a good light. And that said members of said society are all women who have suffered abuses before isn't an excuse to present that kind of society in a good light. That's why Diana's mythos is fundamentaly flawed and Marston work, while certainly enlightened in his time, has become extremely problematic in today's world. At least for me, it does.
    Again, the WW mythos has not directly followed everything Marston has done since the 80s. You have stubbornly refused to accept that this character's world has grown and evolved since Marston, before the New 52.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The only version of the Amazons that behaved like this were the Azzarello versions. You keep talking about the toxic ideology of the Amazons while ignoring that only one iteration of them has acted this way. There have been multiple stories about the Amazons reestablishing communication with the outside world. It seems like you dislike the Amazons so much you deliberately ignore any and all evidence they aren't the monsters you say they are.

    And I have no idea how you think using that Latin phrase was some kind of "gotcha" moment. That's exactly what the Amazons do. The point of that phrase is that peace is not constant and those who want peace should be ready to fight for it when it is threatened. In other words, what any sane country does. But you seem to think the Amazons did nothing but train for war when that is not the case so I expect this little tidbit to fall on deaf ears as well.
    I'm not ignoring anything. I say that when they aren't depicted like Azzarello's, they are extremely toxic because they put horrible ideas like segregation and sexism on a pedestal.

    And frankly, considering how bad Perez's works was (I couldn't stand to read more than a handful of issues because the art and the writing and the very story itself was horribly dated - if not outdated - when I tried), and yet is considered the Golden Era of WW comics... Yeah, I've got a problem with some very large elements of this mythos.

    But I'm not surprised that it works, especially for anglo-saxons readers. But I'm not one of those and I can't help but see the toxicitiy and the horrible elements of the WW mythos.

    When replacing but one element makes it a far-right wet dream, something is irredeemably rotten and needs to be depicted as such or entirely excised. Here, replacing "Man" by "Woman" on the Amazons, or "PoC" makes Themyscyra an atrocious place to be, and everyone would agree to that. But because it's for women whow ere victims of rape and abuses thousands of years ago, apparently it gets a pass and it's okay to be presented in a positive light.

    Well, no. It doesn't. Paradise Island society, when not depicted as it was in New 52 is even more horrible because it paints ideas which should be quashed in a good light. Again, if they want to keep the all-female society, drop the warrior aspect. No society ever, especially one with Antiquity mindset can be enlightened and warlike. Knights, Samuraï, Hoplites... all their stories as we know them today are fairy tales when the real ones were more often than not hopelessly violent. To say that just because those are women is different is just plain all sexism. To say that their society is better because they are isolated from the outside world is just isolationism. That they hold the whole world in contempt because of a vision of Man as an essentialised vision of it is jsut as much segregations than if they said "PoC are by nature vicious and violent and cruel".
    Last edited by Korath; 11-22-2020 at 12:07 AM.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I'm not ignoring anything. I say that when they aren't depicted like Azzarello's, they are extremely toxic because they put horrible ideas like segregation and sexism on a pedestal.

    And frankly, considering how bad Perez's works was (I couldn't stand to read more than a handful of issues because the art and the writing and the very story itself was horribly dated - if not outdated - when I tried), and yet is considered the Golden Era of WW comics... Yeah, I've got a problem with some very large elements of this mythos.

    But I'm not surprised that it works, especially for anglo-saxons readers. But I'm not one of those and I can't help but see the toxicitiy and the horrible elements of the WW mythos.

    When replacing but one element makes it a far-right wet dream, something is irredeemably rotten and needs to be depicted as such or entirely excised. Here, replacing "Man" by "Woman" on the Amazons, or "PoC" makes Themyscyra an atrocious place to be, and everyone would agree to that. But because it's for women whow ere victims of rape and abuses thousands of years ago, apparently it gets a pass and it's okay to be presented in a positive light.

    Well, no. It doesn't. Paradise Island society, when not depicted as it was in New 52 is even more horrible because it paints ideas which should be quashed in a good light. Again, if they want to keep the all-female society, drop the warrior aspect. No society ever, especially one with Antiquity mindset can be enlightened and warlike. Knights, Samuraï, Hoplites... all their stories as we know them today are fairy tales when the real ones were more often than not hopelessly violent. To say that just because those are women is different is just plain all sexism. To say that their society is better because they are isolated from the outside world is just isolationism. That they hold the whole world in contempt because of a vision of Man as an essentialised vision of it is jsut as much segregations than if they said "PoC are by nature vicious and violent and cruel".
    Again, this seems to ignore the only depictions of Themyscira which lean hard into the the warrior race cliches or misandrist attitudes is Azzarello’s New 52 run. Plenty of writers before him showed there were more aspects and nuances to Amazon society than just being “warrior-woman”.

    And honestly saying “replacing one element makes it a far-right wet dream”, ignoring it’s a pretty major element to replace, doesn’t seem any better than those “Superman’s a Aryan wet dream” or “Batman’s only beats up poor people” pseudo-intellectual takes.

  6. #36
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I'm not ignoring anything. I say that when they aren't depicted like Azzarello's, they are extremely toxic because they put horrible ideas like segregation and sexism on a pedestal.
    Um, no they don't because they weren't as blatantly sexist as Azzarello's Amazons were before he got there. The Bana tribe were, but they were first depicted as villains who went through a redemption arc. And then the so called "perfect" Amazons of Themyscira acted as aggressors towards them because they came from the outside world and both tribes went to war before resolving their differences and building a better Themyscira that opened itself to the outside world. All without making them one note, cliché monster that threatened men with castration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    And frankly, considering how bad Perez's works was (I couldn't stand to read more than a handful of issues because the art and the writing and the very story itself was horribly dated - if not outdated - when I tried), and yet is considered the Golden Era of WW comics... Yeah, I've got a problem with some very large elements of this mythos.
    Then I'm sorry, you're not going to know what you're talking about and it's going to be hard to take the opinion on the Amazons seriously when you dropped it before the issues that really explored their motivations and attempts to re-connect with the outside world took place. Yes, the writing and art styles are old in style...so what? That doesn't mean they don't exist just because you don't read them.

    If you're not going to engage with the comics or eve acknowledge that there are contradictions to your views already published, your stance is going to be shaky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    But I'm not surprised that it works, especially for anglo-saxons readers. But I'm not one of those and I can't help but see the toxicitiy and the horrible elements of the WW mythos.
    And you know this how? I'm doubtful everyone who posts here is an anglo-saxon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    When replacing but one element makes it a far-right wet dream, something is irredeemably rotten and needs to be depicted as such or entirely excised. Here, replacing "Man" by "Woman" on the Amazons, or "PoC" makes Themyscyra an atrocious place to be, and everyone would agree to that. But because it's for women whow ere victims of rape and abuses thousands of years ago, apparently it gets a pass and it's okay to be presented in a positive light.
    No, it's ok to present them as overall good people who raised one of the world's greatest superheroes that otherwise have some biases/prejudices. Prejudices that are also not borne from nothing, and have also shown attempts to get over it before Azzarello tried to convince everyone that they didn't and that they otherwise have nothing of value.

    The WW franchise goes beyond just Marston and Azzarello whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Even the Marston run has establishes Diana choosing to leave to help out world instead of remain isolated without the Amazons putting up much resistance, so even that is shaky.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post

    But I'm not surprised that it works, especially for anglo-saxons readers.
    For the record, I'm Nigerian.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 11-22-2020 at 09:39 AM.

  8. #38
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    Moving on to something else so this doesn't become yet another thread about Azzarello's take on the Amazons vs other writers.

    The female goddesses are often portrayed as a positive force for women when in the myths they were more often the opposite. While I don't believe the WW stories are inherently misandrist, it can be hard to argue against that when the flaws of the goddesses get ignored or downplayed while the male gods' are played up in some regards. Admittedly, this is only really the case with Ares and to a lesser extent Zeus most of the time.

  9. #39
    Fantastic Member wonder39's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    ..."Knights, Samuraï, Hoplites... all their stories as we know them today are fairy tales when the real ones were more often than not hopelessly violent.".
    There's your explanation for why it works. We aren't reading history books or even a book of mythology. It's a comic book. Basically a fairy tale. It doesn't depict reality. Therefore it's not bound by reality's restrictions. Men fly. A millionaire is able to become an unstoppable detective hero. And the Amazons can live peacefull lives on an isolated island.

    Ps the Amazons as depicted by Perez and others were a well rounded society of teachers, poets, artists, historians, politicians, craftswomen, farmers, etc. And yes, there were also warrior soldiers.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Moving on to something else so this doesn't become yet another thread about Azzarello's take on the Amazons vs other writers.

    The female goddesses are often portrayed as a positive force for women when in the myths they were more often the opposite. While I don't believe the WW stories are inherently misandrist, it can be hard to argue against that when the flaws of the goddesses get ignored or downplayed while the male gods' are played up in some regards. Admittedly, this is only really the case with Ares and to a lesser extent Zeus most of the time.
    Hermes is usually portrayed pretty fine as far as Olympians go, even being involved in Diana’s creation in Perez’s origin. Hephaestus also whenever he comes up.

    I think Rucka in his first run was the only one who actually portrayed Hades as an active villain, even when in comparison to other Olympians.
    Last edited by Gaius; 11-23-2020 at 06:17 AM.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Of the patron goddesses, the only one with a clean record from the myths (to my admittedly casual knowledge) is Hestia. She seemed pretty chill and didn't hurt anybody. Demeter may be second, there is the way she messed with the seasons in her grief over Persephone. Which is understandable, except for turning Persephone's handmaidens into the Sirens as punishment for losing her to Hades and/or to help widen the search. And then leaving them like that. After that, Aphrodite, Athena, Artemis and especially Hera all have track records. I can understand the WW mythos downplaying that if they want the goddesses to be beneficial. There is no way you can spin Diana loving the patrons if someone like Athena is cursing a rape victim. So for that reason I can see why Rucka went with the older interpretation (although that is still a OTT response by mortal standards and resulted in a monster that turned countless people to stone).

    Hera is an interesting case. In the Perez run, Heracles mentioned that she cursed him to be driven mad with rage like in the myths, but it's possible that that is just him deflecting the blame for his own actions and she has nothing to do with it. It would fit in with the general deconstruction of his myth, and while it may let her off the hook, "blaming the woman" as an excuse for a man's actions is something WW was designed the tackle. It'll be interesting how this plays out in Historia, as Hera seems to have a major role and I can't see DeConnick pulling any punches with making Heracles a bastard and calling him out on it.

    Of the male Gods, the only consistent ones who are antagonists are Ares, Zeus and Poseidon, and there is more than enough precedent for all of them being total assholes in the myths. Hermes and Hephaestus are almost consistently on the side of the Amazons, and Apollo and Hades usually seem neutral outside of some outliers. They also don't really do much with Dionysus outside of the New 52, he could be another male God on mostly good terms with the Amazons.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Of the patron goddesses, the only one with a clean record from the myths (to my admittedly casual knowledge) is Hestia. She seemed pretty chill and didn't hurt anybody. Demeter may be second, there is the way she messed with the seasons in her grief over Persephone. Which is understandable, except for turning Persephone's handmaidens into the Sirens as punishment for losing her to Hades and/or to help widen the search. And then leaving them like that. After that, Aphrodite, Athena, Artemis and especially Hera all have track records. I can understand the WW mythos downplaying that if they want the goddesses to be beneficial. There is no way you can spin Diana loving the patrons if someone like Athena is cursing a rape victim. So for that reason I can see why Rucka went with the older interpretation (although that is still a OTT response by mortal standards and resulted in a monster that turned countless people to stone).

    Hera is an interesting case. In the Perez run, Heracles mentioned that she cursed him to be driven mad with rage like in the myths, but it's possible that that is just him deflecting the blame for his own actions and she has nothing to do with it. It would fit in with the general deconstruction of his myth, and while it may let her off the hook, "blaming the woman" as an excuse for a man's actions is something WW was designed the tackle. It'll be interesting how this plays out in Historia, as Hera seems to have a major role and I can't see DeConnick pulling any punches with making Heracles a bastard and calling him out on it.

    Of the male Gods, the only consistent ones who are antagonists are Ares, Zeus and Poseidon, and there is more than enough precedent for all of them being total assholes in the myths. Hermes and Hephaestus are almost consistently on the side of the Amazons, and Apollo and Hades usually seem neutral outside of some outliers. They also don't really do much with Dionysus outside of the New 52, he could be another male God on mostly good terms with the Amazons.
    I always thought there could be some potential in doing in a WW depiction doing a flip on Hera's traditional characterization in the myths, in the same way the Amazons are a flip on their mythological counterparts. And that since in Perez's run, Ares is the one pegged for instigating Hercules going after the Amazons, it largely leaves no reason for animosity between the two.

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I always thought there could be some potential in doing in a WW depiction doing a flip on Hera's traditional characterization in the myths, in the same way the Amazons are a flip on their mythological counterparts. And that since in Perez's run, Ares is the one pegged for instigating Hercules going after the Amazons, it largely leaves no reason for animosity between the two.
    Yeah, though on the flip side that means Ares becomes a villain. As big of a bastard as he was in the Greek myths, Hippolyta and some of the other Amazons were his daughters so he was not thrilled with Heracles killing her for essentially a glorified panty raid.

    It would be interesting to have Hippolyta and Antiope be his daughters who worship both him and the Goddesses, and Heracles largely acts as a villain on his own without any divine interference from either Hera, Ares or even Zeus.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah, though on the flip side that means Ares becomes a villain. As big of a bastard as he was in the Greek myths, Hippolyta and some of the other Amazons were his daughters so he was not thrilled with Heracles killing her for essentially a glorified panty raid.

    It would be interesting to have Hippolyta and Antiope be his daughters who worship both him and the Goddesses, and Heracles largely acts as a villain on his own without any divine interference from either Hera, Ares or even Zeus.
    That'd be interesting take. Especially since I think the best uses of Ares in modern-ish stuff are where his villainy is toned down/less overt (Jimenez, Rucka's first run) or removed (Azzarello, Rucka's second run).

  15. #45
    Incredible Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    There is no way you can spin Diana loving the patrons if someone like Athena is cursing a rape victim. So for that reason I can see why Rucka went with the older interpretation (although that is still a OTT response by mortal standards and resulted in a monster that turned countless people to stone).
    That wasn't even Athena's doing originally, it was Minerva's. Same with the myth of Arachne, these horrible deeds were retroactively given to Athena. So there's a good reason not to associate it with her if she and Minerva are treated as seperate entities.

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