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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The female goddesses are often portrayed as a positive force for women when in the myths they were more often the opposite. While I don't believe the WW stories are inherently misandrist, it can be hard to argue against that when the flaws of the goddesses get ignored or downplayed while the male gods' are played up in some regards. Admittedly, this is only really the case with Ares and to a lesser extent Zeus most of the time.
    I think it's more to fair say that the Greek myths in general were rather misogynistic, and also that many of the gods and goddesses are more akin to forces and themes than simply good or bad. To take some exemples, Demeter is both famine and a bountiful harvest; Poseidon is the sea in all aspects; Apollo is both sickness and cure. They do not conform to the modern view of gods as beings of ethics at all.

    And yes, I agree that any feminist (because feminism in some form is the core of Wonder Woman) take on the Greek mythology is likely to run into the problem of goddesses good; gods bad. It's a problem I struggled myself in the old Revisiting Olympus thread.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #47
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    I've said before I have no issues with Ares becoming neutral or an ally while Zeus takes his role as Diana's main antagonistic gods.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I've said before I have no issues with Ares becoming neutral or an ally while Zeus takes his role as Diana's main antagonistic gods.
    Eh, I think Ares role as a God of War sort of requires him to be Diana's enemy.

    A better solution to the "Gods bad, Goddesses good" issue would be to make Athena antagonistic, since she's also a war god

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    Eh, I think Ares role as a God of War sort of requires him to be Diana's enemy.

    A better solution to the "Gods bad, Goddesses good" issue would be to make Athena antagonistic, since she's also a war god
    Not necessarily. Diana isn't a pacifist, despite what some seem to think, but she is against pointless bloodshed. Zeus is a better villain given he represents everything the Amazons hated about men and is far worse than Ares ever was.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    Eh, I think Ares role as a God of War sort of requires him to be Diana's enemy.

    A better solution to the "Gods bad, Goddesses good" issue would be to make Athena antagonistic, since she's also a war god
    The key here is to go from thinking good/bad to thinking forces. Depending on context, Diana might have to treat a god as an antagonist or an ally. I think that Pérez missed a golden opportunity in making Athena into Diana's main antagonist in his early run, given that the whole idea of the Cold War and MAD is much more Athena than it is Ares. Or if you do some sort of retelling of the Persephone myth, Demeter could be both an adversary and the person that Diana is trying to help.

    (Come to think of it: Rucka's story of Veronica Cale and her daughter in Rebirth has some clear parallels with the Persephone myth.)

    Now, in most cases Ares will be in an antagonistic relation to Wonder Woman, but I also think that it shouldn't be personal, and that they can end up as allies at times. If there should be a long-term antagonistic relation to a god, I agree with many others here that it should be Zeus.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  6. #51
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    That wasn't even Athena's doing originally, it was Minerva's. Same with the myth of Arachne, these horrible deeds were retroactively given to Athena. So there's a good reason not to associate it with her if she and Minerva are treated as seperate entities.
    I've heard this as well, it's because the Romans had less use/fondness for Athena than the Greeks did right?

    I think this is also why Perez gave Cheetah the last name "Minerva," to establish she's an opposite to Diana who has Athena as one of her main patrons.

  7. #52
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    I don't expect strict fidelity to Greek mythology in the WW comic. But if public domain characters are going to appear in the book, then use them.

    There's a three thousand year old tradition depicting those characters in fiction. If a writer is going to draw on names from that tradition, I expect them to have done at least some of the reading. Not saying they need to be classical scholars, but the personalities and abilities of Greek gods have histories that broad familiarity helps with.

    There's also a three thousand year old tradition depicting these characters in art. I don't expect comic book artists to refrain from trying to add a bit of pizzazz, but you still need to look at the drawings and recognize them at a glance.

    These are the things that public domain characters have going for them: established personalities, established canons of lore, and established imagery. These things are shortcuts that let the writers sidestep establishing all that stuff for a new character. If you're not going to make use of that stuff you may as well create a new character.
    "At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I've heard this as well, it's because the Romans had less use/fondness for Athena than the Greeks did right?

    I think this is also why Perez gave Cheetah the last name "Minerva," to establish she's an opposite to Diana who has Athena as one of her main patrons.
    Well, the Romans saw Mars (Ares) as their titular god and ancestor of their Kings/rulers until they converted to Christianity, so yeah, it's logical that Ares' opposing God of War would be depicted in a less favorable way.

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Diana being Zeus' daughter, probably the one God most at odds with what the Amazons are supposed to represent, may offer some interesting parallels, but its also an overused trope. Hermes or even Hephaestus, if people are so determined to make her a Demi-Goddess, make more sense in regards to the WW mythos.

    As for Herakles... A good part of his existence had been to be tormented by Hera. Even though his name was to "pacify" her rage towards yet another symbol of Zeus' infidelity, she tormented him and targeted him since before his birth. I'm not saying to place all the blame on Hera for what happened to the Amazons, but the Greek God pettiness is one of the most defining things about them. So Hera influencing Herakles to further make life more awful, without caring much for the Amazons at the time, wouldn't be all that out of character for her.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The key here is to go from thinking good/bad to thinking forces.
    Normally I agree with you but this interpretation sounds way too much like the same arguments used to justify ignoring Zeus's indiscretions. The Olympians are not "forces". They are sentient, sapient creatures. They aren't unknowable eldritch abominations from another dimension.

  11. #56
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    While I like for them to adhere to the myths, I'm not adverse to them taking liberties with it.

    Portraying Heracles as a whitewashed character is a brilliant writing move that lends to history's mistreatment of women.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Normally I agree with you but this interpretation sounds way too much like the same arguments used to justify ignoring Zeus's indiscretions. The Olympians are not "forces". They are sentient, sapient creatures. They aren't unknowable eldritch abominations from another dimension.
    True to a degree. But this partially comes down to the difference between the role the gods have in myths and the role have in worship (though there is overlap). Today, our only relation to the Greek gods (or the Norse gods, for that matter; that is where I learnt this particular distinction) is via the myths, but to the Amazons, Diana, and the ancient Greek their role in cultic practice or as beings of worship was much more important. You thanked Demeter for a bountiful harvest, and for her forgiveness during famines. Hecate was both the goddess who could keep the ghosts of the dead away from the living and the one who could let them through. And so on.

    As for interpreting the mythical stories about the gods, you have to step away from the monotheistic view of the gods as a source for morals. Because the Greek (or Norse) gods are not really moral beings, or a source of ethics. They are larger-than-life characters, with exaggerated virtues and flaws.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    True to a degree. But this partially comes down to the difference between the role the gods have in myths and the role have in worship (though there is overlap). Today, our only relation to the Greek gods (or the Norse gods, for that matter; that is where I learnt this particular distinction) is via the myths, but to the Amazons, Diana, and the ancient Greek their role in cultic practice or as beings of worship was much more important. You thanked Demeter for a bountiful harvest, and for her forgiveness during famines. Hecate was both the goddess who could keep the ghosts of the dead away from the living and the one who could let them through. And so on.

    As for interpreting the mythical stories about the gods, you have to step away from the monotheistic view of the gods as a source for morals. Because the Greek (or Norse) gods are not really moral beings, or a source of ethics. They are larger-than-life characters, with exaggerated virtues and flaws.
    I get that but to me that sounds very different from "treat them like forces". Being larger than life characters with exaggerated virtues and flaws applies to a lot of characters in fictions, gods or no.

    I agree they shouldn't be looked at as a source of morals which is why I don't think their flaws should be ignored.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I get that but to me that sounds very different from "treat them like forces". Being larger than life characters with exaggerated virtues and flaws applies to a lot of characters in fictions, gods or no.

    I agree they shouldn't be looked at as a source of morals which is why I don't think their flaws should be ignored.
    When I said good/bad I was more thinking of them being treated as inherently good or bad: God is good because he's god. The devil is bad because he's the devil. Batman is good because he's a hero. Poison Ivy is bad because she's a villain.

    It is much more important to look at and judge the individual actions taken here.

    And yeah, Zeus is totally the god of male privilege and patriarchy. No getting around that.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    An example of where I think change was ultimately good is in the Netflix Blood Of Zeus series. It got away from Bullfinchian and Hamiltonian interpretations of the Olympians, where Zeus is the almighty and supremely powerful and played around with subsequent findings and interpretations of Hera being incredibly powerful and linked to other and previous Great Goddess worship.

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