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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    I was familiar with the Greek myths before I learned about Wonder Woman, so I do have some issues with the 'artistic license'. I just know how the gods are related and what their responsibilities are, and it rubs me the wrong way if there are significant deviations. For example, in the first Rucka run, when suddenly Demeter was shown with bow and arrow, because the goddess Artemis could not be used to avoid confusion with the amazon Artemis. (Did DC think their readers are imbeciles?)
    Yeah, that is another angle at this, but I think a lot depends on what the focus is, and why there is a change.

    Things like the attributes of the mythological characters should be largely left unchanged. You can probably add or remove some responsibilities or areas of influence for some gods, but nothing too big, and any such change should be motivated by the story. Their familial relations should largely be left unchanged, though you also have some room to fiddle (like that Circe and Medea should be related, but it doesn't matter much if they're aunt and niece, or sisters, or something else).

    But if a change—or perhaps better put, reinterpretation—is motivated by story, then I see no reason to hold back. Achilles as a trans woman and her mother an Amazon could make for some great reinterpretation of both his time on Skyros and of the Illiad. If Odysseus comes off as an ass in that story rather than someone admirable, it would still be fine.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    i'd rather writers stop ascribing Judeo-Christian motifs to the Greek myths would be great and if they have a problem with Patriarchy, then Diana should tackle Monotheism far more than any Pagan myths.

    But then again, I think that marston idea of warrior-philosophers who loves peace is incredibly dumb and simply can't work. Either the Amazons are a warrior people who lives secluded and hate the rest of the world and we have the New 52 Amazons which made sense, or they are peace-loving people who actually don't spend all their time training to fight a war against something or someone or whatever the fuck they are supposed to be doing and actually pursue higher knowledge, philosophy and beliefs, with Diana the outlier who actually wants to make use of what her people have achieved for the whole world to grow into a better place.

    Marston infused so much of his own kinks and ideology in the characters of the Wonder Woman's comics that doing so would probably not work with readers however.

  3. #18
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    i'd rather writers stop ascribing Judeo-Christian motifs to the Greek myths would be great and if they have a problem with Patriarchy, then Diana should tackle Monotheism far more than any Pagan myths.

    But then again, I think that marston idea of warrior-philosophers who loves peace is incredibly dumb and simply can't work. Either the Amazons are a warrior people who lives secluded and hate the rest of the world and we have the New 52 Amazons which made sense, or they are peace-loving people who actually don't spend all their time training to fight a war against something or someone or whatever the fuck they are supposed to be doing and actually pursue higher knowledge, philosophy and beliefs, with Diana the outlier who actually wants to make use of what her people have achieved for the whole world to grow into a better place.

    Marston infused so much of his own kinks and ideology in the characters of the Wonder Woman's comics that doing so would probably not work with readers however.
    They're not really ascribing Judeo-Christian motifs to Greek myths though. Aside from pitting Aphrodite vs. Ares as a God vs. Devil figures (which has been downplayed in modern times), this has never been an actual thing.

    Stuff like criticizing Zeus for being an abusive misogynist is right out of the myths based on his behavior.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    i'd rather writers stop ascribing Judeo-Christian motifs to the Greek myths would be great and if they have a problem with Patriarchy, then Diana should tackle Monotheism far more than any Pagan myths.

    But then again, I think that marston idea of warrior-philosophers who loves peace is incredibly dumb and simply can't work. Either the Amazons are a warrior people who lives secluded and hate the rest of the world and we have the New 52 Amazons which made sense, or they are peace-loving people who actually don't spend all their time training to fight a war against something or someone or whatever the fuck they are supposed to be doing and actually pursue higher knowledge, philosophy and beliefs, with Diana the outlier who actually wants to make use of what her people have achieved for the whole world to grow into a better place.

    Marston infused so much of his own kinks and ideology in the characters of the Wonder Woman's comics that doing so would probably not work with readers however.
    Outside of elseworlds like Morrison's Earth 1, the comics haven't directly followed what Marston set up in decades.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    They're not really ascribing Judeo-Christian motifs to Greek myths though. Aside from pitting Aphrodite vs. Ares as a God vs. Devil figures (which has been downplayed in modern times), this has never been an actual thing.

    Stuff like criticizing Zeus for being an abusive misogynist is right out of the myths based on his behavior.
    Even in modern times, Ares has flipped between evil, good and "whatever is in-between" since post-crisis.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Yeah, that is another angle at this, but I think a lot depends on what the focus is, and why there is a change.

    Things like the attributes of the mythological characters should be largely left unchanged. You can probably add or remove some responsibilities or areas of influence for some gods, but nothing too big, and any such change should be motivated by the story. Their familial relations should largely be left unchanged, though you also have some room to fiddle (like that Circe and Medea should be related, but it doesn't matter much if they're aunt and niece, or sisters, or something else).

    But if a change—or perhaps better put, reinterpretation—is motivated by story, then I see no reason to hold back. Achilles as a trans woman and her mother an Amazon could make for some great reinterpretation of both his time on Skyros and of the Illiad. If Odysseus comes off as an ass in that story rather than someone admirable, it would still be fine.
    Worth nothing there's a precedent for stuff like Odysseus being reinterpreted along those lines as how Roman writers viewed him more negatively for largely the same traits the Greeks honored him for. So going back to how even when Hellenism was widely worshipped there were varying views on it.

    So something like that could work in a franchise where Circe is a prominent character.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    They're not really ascribing Judeo-Christian motifs to Greek myths though. Aside from pitting Aphrodite vs. Ares as a God vs. Devil figures (which has been downplayed in modern times), this has never been an actual thing.
    There is more than that. Pérez's retelling of the Amazon backstory could come right out of Exodus, with the Amazons being the chosen people that are given divine edicts, the ocean being parted for them, and the promised land. The movie also gave more than a bit of Christ symbolism to Diana.

    Now, I don't think this is by design. Rather that the creators behind this are steeped in Christian mythology, and have too little understanding of polytheistic belief systems. Even Rucka, who expressed that Diana's relation to the Amazons Patrons was very different from modern monotheism, fell back onto modern monotheistic patterns.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    i'd rather writers stop ascribing Judeo-Christian motifs to the Greek myths would be great and if they have a problem with Patriarchy, then Diana should tackle Monotheism far more than any Pagan myths.

    But then again, I think that marston idea of warrior-philosophers who loves peace is incredibly dumb and simply can't work. Either the Amazons are a warrior people who lives secluded and hate the rest of the world and we have the New 52 Amazons which made sense, or they are peace-loving people who actually don't spend all their time training to fight a war against something or someone or whatever the fuck they are supposed to be doing and actually pursue higher knowledge, philosophy and beliefs, with Diana the outlier who actually wants to make use of what her people have achieved for the whole world to grow into a better place.

    Marston infused so much of his own kinks and ideology in the characters of the Wonder Woman's comics that doing so would probably not work with readers however.
    Also, why is the idea that people can be good at fighting to defend themselves and prefer to live in peace so impossible to believe? The New 52 versions didn't make any more sense than any other version especially when you consider that a culture that does nothing but fight all day would have been wiped out ages ago. You're essentially complaining that the Amazons are being written as a multifaceted people instead of one-dimensional tropes about "warrior cultures".

  9. #24
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    There is more than that. Pérez's retelling of the Amazon backstory could come right out of Exodus, with the Amazons being the chosen people that are given divine edicts, the ocean being parted for them, and the promised land. The movie also gave more than a bit of Christ symbolism to Diana.

    Now, I don't think this is by design. Rather that the creators behind this are steeped in Christian mythology, and have too little understanding of polytheistic belief systems. Even Rucka, who expressed that Diana's relation to the Amazons Patrons was very different from modern monotheism, fell back onto modern monotheistic patterns.
    Very true, I overlooked all those.

    It'll be interesting to see how Historia tackles the various Gods, though one of the sneak peeks for Poseidon makes me think the "parting of the ocean" may still make an appearance. The Well of Souls will be showing up too, and though it looks like a gorgeous sequence, I kind of wish they went for something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Also, why is the idea that people can be good at fighting to defend themselves and prefer to live in peace so impossible to believe? The New 52 versions didn't make any more sense than any other version especially when you consider that a culture that does nothing but fight all day would have been wiped out ages ago. You're essentially complaining that the Amazons are being written as a multifaceted people instead of one-dimensional tropes about "warrior cultures".
    Agreed, there is the fact that the Amazons are immortal and live for thousands of years. There is plenty of time for them to hone warrior skills and pursue higher knowledge. We have no realistic situation to accurately depict the psychology or culture of people who live that long in magical settings since it is obviously completely impossible. Any argument for what the Amazons would "realistically/believably" do (especially if it means reducing them to the same sexist myths told about them originally) is usually built on sand.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Also, why is the idea that people can be good at fighting to defend themselves and prefer to live in peace so impossible to believe? The New 52 versions didn't make any more sense than any other version especially when you consider that a culture that does nothing but fight all day would have been wiped out ages ago. You're essentially complaining that the Amazons are being written as a multifaceted people instead of one-dimensional tropes about "warrior cultures".
    I guess this is just no fictional nations will really ever be as in depth as real world cultures, but yeah even in comparison to real world “warrior cultures” like the Spartans or something, the New 52 Amazons weren’t exactly multifaceted.

    And related to what you said, didn’t last very long in the form people think of it as.

  11. #26
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    In the original Hellenistic "canon," Hercules kills Hippolyta during one of his twelve labours. One of the first things the chad Marston did when writing Wonder Woman was errata this story and this was during an era where Greek mythology was better understood by the public at large. So I would say fidelity isn't very important at all.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

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  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Also, why is the idea that people can be good at fighting to defend themselves and prefer to live in peace so impossible to believe? The New 52 versions didn't make any more sense than any other version especially when you consider that a culture that does nothing but fight all day would have been wiped out ages ago. You're essentially complaining that the Amazons are being written as a multifaceted people instead of one-dimensional tropes about "warrior cultures".
    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    This isn't simply a use of Latin to sound cool.

    When a society starts to believe that they have to be prepared to war against enemies they revile and consider particularly dangerous, a true blight on the world, then, sooner rather than later, toxicity and brutality will take over anything else and they'll feel the need to go to war or to ever greater length to prevent those peoples from ever approaching them. And the Amazons' beliefs are well documented, and fall right into this type of toxic ideology. They largely hate Men as a whole and consider them terrible peoples who destroy the world. Men. Not Humans, Men precisely. They live in an isolated island and segregate entirely from half of the world's population because this half happened to have another set of chromosomes.

  13. #28
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    This isn't simply a use of Latin to sound cool.

    When a society starts to believe that they have to be prepared to war against enemies they revile and consider particularly dangerous, a true blight on the world, then, sooner rather than later, toxicity and brutality will take over anything else and they'll feel the need to go to war or to ever greater length to prevent those peoples from ever approaching them. And the Amazons' beliefs are well documented, and fall right into this type of toxic ideology. They largely hate Men as a whole and consider them terrible peoples who destroy the world. Men. Not Humans, Men precisely. They live in an isolated island and segregate entirely from half of the world's population because this half happened to have another set of chromosomes.
    Except they never go to war with men as the aggressors. You act as if their attitude towards men came out of nowhere or that it's simplified black and white when it isn't. They actively tried to interact with the rest of the world only to have their reputations slandered, their home destroyed, and were enslaved where they were beaten and raped. The only time they went to war was when they fought to break free, then most of them left this world when the opportunity presented itself where they just wanted to be left alone. And they not only had that experience with Heracles and his men, a lot of them were reincarnated women who were killed by men's violence in previous lives, so this was already strike two and they were not obligated to go for a third if they were in danger. Their attitudes are more nuanced than Azzarello allowed, and it's too reductive to say it's "toxic" when you consider their experiences. I'm a man and I would feel uncomfortable if I were around the Amazons and they were side eyeing me for being a man, but if I knew their experience I would have at least basic empathy and leave them alone because I haven't walked a day in their shoes. It'd be an entitled attitude to demand rape victims let me into their home/island. Their healing of Steve and making sure he gets home safely but being uncomfortable with him staying there is perfectly understandable, and it's not like Steve didn't have a home to go back to.

    This is also an unrealistic scenario in a fantasy setting where immortality is a factor, so you can't accurately bring in real world warrior based cultures into this. I also don't think the beliefs your connecting to them are actually all that documented outside of the New 52, which you seem to accept as the only "true" depiction.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Except they never go to war with men as the aggressors. You act as if their attitude towards men came out of nowhere or that it's simplified black and white when it isn't. They actively tried to interact with the rest of the world only to have their reputations slandered, their home destroyed, and were enslaved where they were beaten and raped. The only time they went to war was when they fought to break free, then most of them left this world when the opportunity presented itself where they just wanted to be left alone. And they not only had that experience with Heracles and his men, a lot of them were reincarnated women who were killed by men's violence in previous lives, so this was already strike two and they were not obligated to go for a third if they were in danger. Their attitudes are more nuanced than Azzarello allowed, and it's too reductive to say it's "toxic" when you consider their experiences. I'm a man and I would feel uncomfortable if I were around the Amazons and they were side eyeing me for being a man, but if I knew their experience I would have at least basic empathy and leave them alone because I haven't walked a day in their shoes. It'd be an entitled attitude to demand rape victims let me into their home/island. Their healing of Steve and making sure he gets home safely but being uncomfortable with him staying there is perfectly understandable, and it's not like Steve didn't have a home to go back to.

    This is also an unrealistic scenario in a fantasy setting where immortality is a factor, so you can't accurately bring in real world warrior based cultures into this. I also don't think the beliefs your connecting to them are actually all that documented outside of the New 52, which you seem to accept as the only "true" depiction.
    There comes a point when something which happened thousands of years ago stop beings a valid reason to foster a sexist and isolationist society in my eyes. That's as simple as that. And, again, if writers truly insist to make the Amazons sexists, then at the very least they shouldn't be warriors ! Make them entirely peaceful and have Diana learning how to fight in "Man's World" precisely because it's so corrupt that she can't help by simply being herself, enlightened and emphatic. With her powers and abilities, no matter their origin, she wouldn't need to be an expert fighter when she arrives to be affective, and considering that the Amazons could have taught her a real ability to focus on things to achieve them, she could learn fighting styles really fast (and, frankly, DC isn't realy great at depicting that she is more than a flying brick nowadays, anyway...).

    But if peoples insists for the Amazons to be an isolationnist society based on segregation which see battle prowesses as great. I'm sorry but I don't want that kind of society being put in a good light. And that said members of said society are all women who have suffered abuses before isn't an excuse to present that kind of society in a good light. That's why Diana's mythos is fundamentaly flawed and Marston work, while certainly enlightened in his time, has become extremely problematic in today's world. At least for me, it does.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    There comes a point when something which happened thousands of years ago stop beings a valid reason to foster a sexist and isolationist society in my eyes. That's as simple as that. And, again, if writers truly insist to make the Amazons sexists, then at the very least they shouldn't be warriors ! Make them entirely peaceful and have Diana learning how to fight in "Man's World" precisely because it's so corrupt that she can't help by simply being herself, enlightened and emphatic. With her powers and abilities, no matter their origin, she wouldn't need to be an expert fighter when she arrives to be affective, and considering that the Amazons could have taught her a real ability to focus on things to achieve them, she could learn fighting styles really fast (and, frankly, DC isn't realy great at depicting that she is more than a flying brick nowadays, anyway...).

    But if peoples insists for the Amazons to be an isolationnist society based on segregation which see battle prowesses as great. I'm sorry but I don't want that kind of society being put in a good light. And that said members of said society are all women who have suffered abuses before isn't an excuse to present that kind of society in a good light. That's why Diana's mythos is fundamentaly flawed and Marston work, while certainly enlightened in his time, has become extremely problematic in today's world. At least for me, it does.
    If the Amazons weren't immortal and it happened to their ancient ancestors, than maybe this would have a point but most depictions of DC's Amazons of the present day is that they're the same people who Hercules enslaved/raped back ancient times.

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