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  1. #46
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Was Clark a fully developed person when they met him?
    well,silverage superman had perfect recall.So,he was.He just needed a place to grow and people to love.He just need to adapt human customs and america.Max fliescher superman wasn't raised by kents.He was raised in an orphanage.Radioshow superman got to earth as an adult.He was essentially shown around the town by jimmy.And superman was originally just supposed to be taken to an orphanage motorcyclist.
    Finally,dude!this question being asked by op means that there is an inherent belief among casuals that superman can't tie his shoes without the kents.I mean,it has got to a point where he needs his wife alive to keep him from going "injustice" and keep him "grounded".
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    People aren't just born helpful and altruistic.
    what literature do you have to back that claim?That there is'nt a genetic and biological component to morality,societal structure and altruism in general.And coming from snyder superman fan is funny.Superman is a product of chance and choice.Not sociological and societal programming by his parents.
    "Artificial population control was established. The outposts and space exploration were abandoned. We exhausted our natural resources. As a result, our planet's core became unstable. Eventually, our military leader, General Zod, attempted a coup, but by then it was too late. Your mother and I foresaw the coming calamity and we took certain steps to ensure your survival. This is a genesis chamber. All Kryptonians were conceived in chambers such as this. Every child was designed to perform a predetermined role in our society as a worker, a warrior, a leader, and so on. Your mother and I believed Krypton lost something precious, the element of choice, of chance. What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society had intended? What if a child aspired to something greater? You were the embodiment of that belief Kal. Krypton's first natural birth in centuries. That's why we risked so much to save you."
    Even if you are right,clark is an alien.Heck!someone on this very forum said to me that might be the reason siegel and shuster decided to make him alien.That he would be good with power.He doesn't have to play by our rules.
    Finally,superman is about there being inherent good in people.Yet,you are saying otherwise.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-26-2020 at 02:57 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    well,silverage superman had perfect recall.So,he was.He just needed a place to grow and people to love.He just need to adapt human customs and america.Max fliescher superman wasn't raised by kents.He was raised in an orphanage.Radioshow superman got to earth as an adult.He was essentially shown around the town by jimmy.And superman was originally just supposed to be taken to an orphanage motorcyclist.
    Finally,dude!this question being asked by op means that there is an inherent belief among casuals that superman can't tie his shoes without the kents.I mean,it has got to a point where he needs his wife alive to keep him from going "injustice" and keep him "grounded".
    Perfect recall isn't being a fully developed human being, that just means being able to memorise things with accuracy, which people in the real world do. Silver Age Superman was Golden Age Superman and he was raised by the Kents. That's an opinion, not fact and who's the casual? That's a straw man, no-one in this thread is making that argument. That's a separate issue, and one I also find frustrating.

    what literature do you have to back that claim?That there is'nt a genetic and biological component to morality,societal structure and altruism in general.And coming from snyder superman fan is funny.Superman is a product of chance and choice.Not sociological and societal programming by his parents.
    "Artificial population control was established. The outposts and space exploration were abandoned. We exhausted our natural resources. As a result, our planet's core became unstable. Eventually, our military leader, General Zod, attempted a coup, but by then it was too late. Your mother and I foresaw the coming calamity and we took certain steps to ensure your survival. This is a genesis chamber. All Kryptonians were conceived in chambers such as this. Every child was designed to perform a predetermined role in our society as a worker, a warrior, a leader, and so on. Your mother and I believed Krypton lost something precious, the element of choice, of chance. What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society had intended? What if a child aspired to something greater? You were the embodiment of that belief Kal. Krypton's first natural birth in centuries. That's why we risked so much to save you."
    Even if you are right,clark is an alien.Heck!someone on this very forum said to me that might be the reason siegel and shuster decided to make him alien.That he would be good with power.He doesn't have to play by our rules.
    Clark may be an alien but his mind and personality are distinctly human. He's not Cthulhu. Clark being born naturally in Man of Steel was special because of how he was birthed, it didn't make him a being beyond human comprehension and the Kryptonians were very human from what we saw in their culture. Except when he does but pretending to be Clark Kent and to have relationships with people like his parents, bosses, and girlfriend. They're not friends with him because they fear he's going to crush them into paste. This is very confusing, since the argument being made by you is that Superman needs nobody to become a good person - he just knows it naturally.

  3. #48
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Perfect recall isn't being a fully developed human being, that just means being able to memorise things with accuracy, which people in the real world do. Silver Age Superman was Golden Age Superman and he was raised by the Kents. That's an opinion, not fact and who's the casual? That's a straw man, no-one in this thread is making that argument. That's a separate issue, and one I also find frustrating.



    Clark may be an alien but his mind and personality are distinctly human. He's not Cthulhu. Clark being born naturally in Man of Steel was special because of how he was birthed, it didn't make him a being beyond human comprehension and the Kryptonians were very human from what we saw in their culture. Except when he does but pretending to be Clark Kent and to have relationships with people like his parents, bosses, and girlfriend. They're not friends with him because they fear he's going to crush them into paste. This is very confusing, since the argument being made by you is that Superman needs nobody to become a good person - he just knows it naturally.
    No,silverage superman is a different character in outlook,way he is written..etc.In his first origin superman wasn't raised by kents.well,yeah!but ,opinions matter.why does that opinion not matter and yours does?


    Says who?He has eaten metal,rocks..etc.He doesn't need to be cthulhu.the fact that you brought up a horror lovecraftian creature shows that you can't comprehend a being that can be inherently good.It is not beyond human comprehension.why?superman exists.he was created as a concept.That comment with man of steel wasn't aimed at you it was aimed @AgentZ who does believe dceu superman is good.Just ignore it cause you don't Believe that superman is good at all.Anyways,Kryptonian's look human.Superman and his stories believe humans have inherent good.That biological processes can lead to altruism,not just social darwinism.Granted,this whole topic is very controversial.I don't know if altruism is biological or socio-cultural phenomenon.

  4. #49
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    I hate Superman having a Hard No Kill Rule. I'd prefer he didn't kill because he believes in his heart of hearts that people can change if given time. That's how I feel about it but what do you do with those the can't change no matter how much time you give them? Or those that are far too powerful to contain for long? Funny how Superman's Answer to "What if he goes Rogue?" is to kill him. Also Injustice Superman may have stepped foot onto the Dark Path when he Killed the Joker but it was Batman's constant Attacks and Schemes that kept him walking down it.
    Phantom Zone?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    No,silverage superman is a different character in outlook,way he is written..etc.In his first origin superman wasn't raised by kents.well,yeah!but ,opinions matter.why does that opinion not matter and yours does?
    Superman though his early years evolved and remained a single character which became Earth Two Superman. A new Superman didn't just form in place whenever they updated his origins. Opinions are subjective, facts aren't. This its why the fulcrum of my arguments aren't based on my opinion they are backed by facts. You didn't explain what you meant with my questions so I'm going to assume they're not relevant to the conversation.


    Says who?He has eaten metal,rocks..etc.He doesn't need to be cthulhu.the fact that you brought up a horror lovecraftian creature shows that you can't comprehend a being that can be inherently good.It is not beyond human comprehension.why?superman exists.he was created as a concept.That comment with man of steel wasn't aimed at you it was aimed @AgentZ who does believe dceu superman is good.Just ignore it cause you don't Believe that superman is good at all.Anyways,Kryptonian's look human.Superman and his stories believe humans have inherent good.That biological processes can lead to altruism,not just social darwinism.Granted,this whole topic is very controversial.I don't know if altruism is biological or socio-cultural phenomenon.
    We're discussing his psychology, not his biology and we have generations of Kryptonian culture to draw from and none of them are truly "alien," they're just humans with a wacky culture and a strange biology. They even do this in the DCEU. Cthulhu is an actual alien intellect because his mind is something that we can't fully understand without going insane, that's what "alien" means in literature mentally. Superman exists proves nothing, there have been dozens of canon interpretations (including of Golden Age Superman himself!), and as a concept he changed. A big factor in your complaints is because he did change over time and want to discard elements created by Siegel and Shuster, who have been made to be the ultimate word on Superman in other threads in our conversations. I have a right to respond to statements even if they're not aimed at me and my opinion on that Superman is valid, you don't have to agree with it. The discussion was about Kryptonian's thinking state not their biology. Yes, they do - this is a term in literature is called "morality tales," a concept which we've argued over and you've disagreed with their conclusions. Except your argument is that Superman only became a good man by his genetics, it had nothing to do with nurturing he got from the Kents or his real parents when they spoke to him as an adult, like in numerous versions. If you don't know the gist of what that subject why champion the belief that it's biological? That was stringently defended as a fact, not an assumption.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    I hate Superman having a Hard No Kill Rule. I'd prefer he didn't kill because he believes in his heart of hearts that people can change if given time. That's how I feel about it but what do you do with those the can't change no matter how much time you give them? Or those that are far too powerful to contain for long? Funny how Superman's Answer to "What if he goes Rogue?" is to kill him. Also Injustice Superman may have stepped foot onto the Dark Path when he Killed the Joker but it was Batman's constant Attacks and Schemes that kept him walking down it.
    Threw them into Apokolopis? Phantom Zone? Put them into the bottle city of Kandor?

  7. #52
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    The short answer is no. Homelander was raised as a lab experiment and deliberately denied human connections in order to make him tough and brutal. So long as he isn't subjected to that sort of thing I don't think he would.

  8. #53
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Possibly. The Superboy from Earth Prime was basically the same character as Superman except being the sole superhero of his world, and he turned into an asshole

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    Possibly. The Superboy from Earth Prime was basically the same character as Superman except being the sole superhero of his world, and he turned into an asshole
    To be fair he wasn't an asshole at first. That only came after he spent 20 years locked away like a Phantom Zoner with only Kal-L, Grammy Lois, and Alex Luthor Jr. for company. That's a little more extreme than just having different parents.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I know there are a few stories where Kal is raised by someone else and becomes a monster or a weapon, like the episode of Superboy where he's raised by a fascist and becomes a fascist for example, or the brief and depressing Elseworld where he's raised by Luthor after his rocket kills the Waynes and then Bruce shows up and kills them both - but ultimately, I think those stories are all really really freaking boring.

    The most compelling counter-argument to me is Master Men, in which Kal is literally raised by Adolf Hitler. Yes, he becomes a tool of Nazi imperialism, but he's also fundamentally a much more moral person than that statement would imply. He doesn't know about or participate in the holocaust, he only finds out about it when it's too late, and he's stuck trying to build a worthwhile society on the bones of a genocide - and he ultimately feels a lot of guilt about the world he's inherited. There's even an argument to be made that he's the Freedom Fighters' inside source on the New Reichsmen, and he only fails to save his version of the Watchtower from crashing because ultimately he doesn't think it deserves to be saved.
    In the end, Overman is not an egotistical monster like Homelander, instead he's recognizably Kal-El, even though he's too distorted to be Superman.

    There's a fundamental morality to the character. It's not all nuture, there's nature at play too. At the end of the day, Clark Kent or no, Kal-El is just a good man, someone who will try to do the right thing. He might not always succeed, but he will never operate simply to gain power.
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  11. #56
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    To be fair he wasn't an asshole at first. That only came after he spent 20 years locked away like a Phantom Zoner with only Kal-L, Grammy Lois, and Alex Luthor Jr. for company. That's a little more extreme than just having different parents.
    True, but it proves that Superman, under extreme circumstances, can be corrupted.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member The Kid's Avatar
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    I think there's some natural goodness and just not being raised by the Kents wouldn't cause him to be like Homelander who has very specific backstory explaining why he is the way he is. Homelander is essentially a Superman analogue where 'Clark' was raised from birth in the name of neo-liberalism and ultra Capitalism. I think there's a big chasm of Kents raising him and corporate America and the military-industrial complex raising him. I think most people who raised Clark, he'd be a decent person at worst most of the time
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  13. #58
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    Well, we kind of have an example from within DC continuity: Kon-El. Superboy was more or less designed to be like a young Superman if he didn't have the Kents to raise him and sand off his rougher edges. Heck, Kon didn't even really have parents in any traditional sense. He was independent at first and then under the guiding hand of Cadmus. And at least until he got revamped a bit in Teen Titans, the end result was like a '90s cross between Superman, Johnny Storm and one of S.E. Hinton's Outsiders but still a good kid. I suppose it does get a bit muddy when you factor in the Westfield or Luthor DNA though (feel free to pick your back story of choice).

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    If Clark was not raised by the Kents, would he have ended up like Homelander? Homelander is a Superman pastiche that is the main villain of the series the Boys, someone who has the powers like Superman's, but grew up in a lab with no love and became a psychopath as an adult.

    There have been stories where Superman was raised by Stalin or Darkseid and was less heroic as a result, but was not as vile as Homelander.
    Homelander is what Ennis really thinks of Superman.
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  15. #60
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod G View Post
    Homelander is what Ennis really thinks of Superman.
    homelander is highly image concious.isn't he?He does the whole politician like fakery and pr.Doesn't he?
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 12-07-2020 at 01:06 AM.
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