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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's true. Again this proves my point, Morrison's New X-Men run is an outstanding example of a great and influential run building to terrible conclusions and still commanding value in spite of how badly it ended.

    The same could be said of JMS but BACK IN BLACK, the last full story he had control over is a disaster.

    I'd say Sins' Past is JMS' Planet X, a story with no lasting real-estate.
    Fixed it for you.

  2. #197
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    3) The third strike is that...Planet X is a bad story. Having Magneto return from the dead as a psycho drug-addicted mass murdering terrorist and making a mockery of some 20 years of character development and iconic stories and so on, that would never have landed well. It's not out of character for Magneto to experience Genosha, survive, and come out of it as an avenging villain and bad guy...but the way Morrison did that had no tragedy or poignancy to it, acknowledged nothing of what came before. It took Cullen Bunn's wonderful Magneto series, and Hickman's current run, to give us Magneto's experience of Genosha and how it shaped and affected him and transformed him.
    To be fair, while it's shitty to make Magneto return as a mutant terrorist like he was in Silver Age, at the very least he was being controlled by that sentient super bacteria dude (I'm rather bad with names lol), think Wolverine even said at some point that "Magneto was under orders he didn't understand", so there's the brainwashing angle, even if it's really stupid to bring a character to be killed off like that.

    There's some similarities between Kindred/Harry and Xorn/Magneto, in that Spencer has manufactured a second identity around an established villain. He has arguably reversed character development to have him backslide into a villain. The difference is that Kindred was always established as a villain from the get-go. There was never a sense that he was a cool good guy like Xorn was introduced so convincingly. He was a villain under wraps (heh...lame pun...get it wraps because of the bandages), and Harry Osborn unlike Magneto isn't quite an iconic and beloved figure in the same way. And Harry Osborn's turn to villainy is still grounded by humanity (for instance the fact that he cares for Mary Jane, tries to get her out of the way and calls her an innocent). He's also shown in the last issue to care for Normie. So it's not like Harry went insane and decided to murder his family and so on.
    Spencer better make a proper explanation with what's going on with Harry though, since ASM#53 really makes it look like that Kindred is BND Harry, who was a good guy last we saw of him, and while it won't be Xorn bad if there isn't an explanation, it's still gonna look really bad to have Harry be a good guy who's friends with Peter, only to change his mind suddenly and try to torment him, resurrect villains to attack people, possess people to blackmail Peter, and whatever, so there'd better be good explanations for this, otherwise Kindred is gonna be wack in his motivations for going evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    At least Dust grew on people during New X-Men, as did Emma and Scott's relationship across subsequent comics.
    Yeah, bad representation can be less important that one may think, as long as the character is good enough, plus apparently she got better representation on top of that later on, 'cause that's honestly easier to fix than being a boring character, and if so, plenty going on for her. Scott's and Emma's relationship... I don't think it's controversial to say it started as horribly as Peter and Cindy's at the very least, even if back then people were too stupid to see how colossally fucked up it was, but hey, if other comics managed to make that look healthy, that's cool I guess lol.

  3. #198
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    To be fair, while it's shitty to make Magneto return as a mutant terrorist like he was in Silver Age, at the very least he was being controlled by that sentient super bacteria dude (I'm rather bad with names lol), think Wolverine even said at some point that "Magneto was under orders he didn't understand", so there's the brainwashing angle, even if it's really stupid to bring a character to be killed off like that.
    Morrison in interviews said that Magneto was supposed to be a terrorist jackass in that story and he wanted to finish him as a villain for good. Which, wow, talk about hubris, huh. The entire Sublime possessing him seems like a backdoor he offered to get the story out. But Planet X was so damaging the decision was made to totally disconnect the Magneto everybody loved from the one that Morrison wrote.

    Spencer better make a proper explanation with what's going on with Harry though, since ASM#53 really makes it look like that Kindred is BND Harry, who was a good guy last we saw of him, and while it won't be Xorn bad if there isn't an explanation, it's still gonna look really bad to have Harry be a good guy who's friends with Peter, only to change his mind suddenly and try to torment him, resurrect villains to attack people, possess people to blackmail Peter, and whatever, so there'd better be good explanations for this, otherwise Kindred is gonna be wack in his motivations for going evil.
    We'll have to wait and see. My point is that Kindred-Harry backsliding back to villainy isn't the same because Kindred does show that he cares for people, namely Normie, and also MJ.

  4. #199
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    And again there are great runs for comics that set up a big reveal that lands like a lead balloon and it doesn't diminish it.

    Grant Morrison's New X-Men is a landmark run all built to a conclusion (Planet X, Here Comes Tomorrow) that were controversial and huge letdowns when it happened. People still value that run for the early issues.
    The Xorn reveal was a great moment, though.

    A specific problem with this issue of Amazing Spider-Man is that the cliffhanger is a moment that was *******phed.

    There are some ways to get around that, like having two big moments at once.

    When Brubaker killed off Captain America, that twist was spoiled by the news, but there was the additional reveal that Sharon Carter was responsible.

    The Xorn moment wasn't just that he was Magneto, but that he had defeated the X-Men.

    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    I see this a lot but I never get the chance to ask why people hate the second half so much? Granted that i absolutely do not like Here Comes Tomorrow but what is wrong with everything else?
    I just reread the omnibus recently, and I can appreciate why some fans didn't like Planet X.

    The people who don't want Magneto to be a villain, and prefer a more nuanced take, don't care for a story where he is an out and out bad guy.

    It's also a story about a really unsuccessful return for a villain. The message is that he was better off dead. So that's going to piss off some of the fans of Magneto as a villain as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montressor View Post
    I remember people for some reason thinking Morrison haphazardly pulled the Xorn reveal out of nowhere, as if he hadn't thought it all out, when in actuality the clues were all there. Personally I disliked the ending because of how rushed it seemed to me, in spite of all the major events that were happening as a result of 'Xorn' revealing himself.
    The omnibus includes Morrison's original pitch, and Xorn being Magneto is definitely part of that.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  5. #200
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    Im been thinking about what can happen in amazing spider-man 53.Since One more Day and Brand new day maybe after the deal that spider-man made to the Devil,and all of Brand new Day.Spider-man crated a new world of retuning harry back and Parker didn't relise it,In This Last Remans Harry as kindred is the Before OMD where sometine happened to him and BND is the After and i think thats why when Spider-man made the deal with kindred to save his friends' He went back to BND and thats why in that reality was the same as BND but with some people you can see are different with eyes glowing and thats why there are 2 petter parker on from BND with Kindred and the other petter parker That Kindred killed and brought back to life

  6. #201
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Morrison in interviews said that Magneto was supposed to be a terrorist jackass in that story and he wanted to finish him as a villain for good. Which, wow, talk about hubris, huh. The entire Sublime possessing him seems like a backdoor he offered to get the story out. But Planet X was so damaging the decision was made to totally disconnect the Magneto everybody loved from the one that Morrison wrote.
    Weird, I mean, while Magneto is treated as a villain there, the reveal later that kick drug was actually Sublime should mean that Magneto was pretty much innocent... Looks like my guess when I said months ago about Morrison letting his silver age fanboyism take over too much when making Magneto into a villain was correct after all.

    We'll have to wait and see. My point is that Kindred-Harry backsliding back to villainy isn't the same because Kindred does show that he cares for people, namely Normie, and also MJ.
    Like I said, even if there's no explanation, it still won't be as bad as Xorn, just sayin' that "not as bad as X" doesn't meant "it's not bad".

  7. #202
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    It's also a story about a really unsuccessful return for a villain. The message is that he was better off dead. So that's going to piss off some of the fans of Magneto as a villain as well.
    Again, trying to essentially nuke and make unusable one of Marvel's most beloved and respected characters, which is who Magneto has become, would never have worked out.

    The omnibus includes Morrison's original pitch, and Xorn being Magneto is definitely part of that.
    The funny thing about Morrison's original pitch is that it didn't include stuff like the Emma Frost-Cyclops romance. That thing developed incidentally, because X-Fans had asked him if he had plans for Emma, and Morrison had to look her up and realize that she could be interesting. Emma Frost is Morrison's signature character in the run, he's the writer who overwrote and defined Emma the way Claremont defined Magneto, Conway defined Mary Jane. And it's interesting how that development, incidental to his original plans, ultimately became more lasting than his long-term plans.

    That goes to highlight Morrison's strengths and weaknesses, and the common strengths and weaknesses of most writers. The incidental issue-by-issue stuff ultimately matters more than the long-term stuff they bet their barn on. There are writers who mix the incidental and long-term well, Hickman is a good example, Moore even moreso but most I think, even talented ones like Morrison, falter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Weird, I mean, while Magneto is treated as a villain there, the reveal later that kick drug was actually Sublime should mean that Magneto was pretty much innocent... Looks like my guess when I said months ago about Morrison letting his silver age fanboyism take over too much when making Magneto into a villain was correct after all.
    It's not Silver Age fanboyism so much, it's just Morrison's own dark reaction to 9/11 overwhelming his artistic instincts. Morrison's manifesto does talk about the X-Men needing to change and evolve and so on. So this isn't at all like John Byrne (who was hateful to Magneto as a character and repeatedly went out of his way to undermine Chris Claremont's work redeeming him multiple times). I just think it's a case of a talented writer making a mistake from a place of sincerity. That can happen. Sometimes talented people make mistakes and they do it for the most understandable reasons.

    About the only writer who had a proper reaction to 9/11 at Marvel in that time was JMS. His 9/11 tribute issue includes a plea for tolerance and an insistence that USA don't persecute Muslims for the actions of the few. He was a vocal opponent to the Iraq War at a time it was popular and his famous issue of DOOMED AFFAIRS can be seen as an allegory for America's involvement in the War on Terror. You have Latverian terrorists attacking Doom at Denver Airport but in the process they inflict collateral damage and Spider-Man and Captain America save everyone, including Doom from those attacks. That goes at the heart of the "take out the Dictator" argument used to justify Iraq. And JMS presented the terrorists attacking Denver as driven by understandable motivations to doing something terrible.

    Everybody else just took it badly -- Mark Millar's schizoid Civil War, his hyper-militaristic propaganda in The Ultimates (which he said was intended to be criticial of Bush but came out in fact as pro-War on Terror), Morrison with Planet X. And of course in independent comics, you had Frank Miller tanking his career with Holy Terror.

  8. #203
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Again, trying to essentially nuke and make unusable one of Marvel's most beloved and respected characters, which is who Magneto has become, would never have worked out.



    The funny thing about Morrison's original pitch is that it didn't include stuff like the Emma Frost-Cyclops romance. That thing developed incidentally, because X-Fans had asked him if he had plans for Emma, and Morrison had to look her up and realize that she could be interesting. Emma Frost is Morrison's signature character in the run, he's the writer who overwrote and defined Emma the way Claremont defined Magneto, Conway defined Mary Jane. And it's interesting how that development, incidental to his original plans, ultimately became more lasting than his long-term plans.

    That goes to highlight Morrison's strengths and weaknesses, and the common strengths and weaknesses of most writers. The incidental issue-by-issue stuff ultimately matters more than the long-term stuff they bet their barn on. There are writers who mix the incidental and long-term well, Hickman is a good example, Moore even moreso but most I think, even talented ones like Morrison, falter.



    It's not Silver Age fanboyism so much, it's just Morrison's own dark reaction to 9/11 overwhelming his artistic instincts. Morrison's manifesto does talk about the X-Men needing to change and evolve and so on. So this isn't at all like John Byrne (who was hateful to Magneto as a character and repeatedly went out of his way to undermine Chris Claremont's work redeeming him multiple times). I just think it's a case of a talented writer making a mistake from a place of sincerity. That can happen. Sometimes talented people make mistakes and they do it for the most understandable reasons.

    About the only writer who had a proper reaction to 9/11 at Marvel in that time was JMS. His 9/11 tribute issue includes a plea for tolerance and an insistence that USA don't persecute Muslims for the actions of the few. He was a vocal opponent to the Iraq War at a time it was popular and his famous issue of DOOMED AFFAIRS can be seen as an allegory for America's involvement in the War on Terror. You have Latverian terrorists attacking Doom at Denver Airport but in the process they inflict collateral damage and Spider-Man and Captain America save everyone, including Doom from those attacks. That goes at the heart of the "take out the Dictator" argument used to justify Iraq. And JMS presented the terrorists attacking Denver as driven by understandable motivations to doing something terrible.

    Everybody else just took it badly -- Mark Millar's schizoid Civil War, his hyper-militaristic propaganda in The Ultimates (which he said was intended to be criticial of Bush but came out in fact as pro-War on Terror), Morrison with Planet X. And of course in independent comics, you had Frank Miller tanking his career with Holy Terror.
    Morrison is non-binary. Please do not use he/him pronouns when referring to them.

  9. #204
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Morrison is non-binary. Please do not use he/him pronouns when referring to them.
    Did not know that.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Morrison is non-binary. Please do not use he/him pronouns when referring to them.
    So what pronoun would you recommend be used?

    A quick search came up with this: "Many non-binary people use “they” while others use “he” or “she,” and still others use other pronouns."

    It appears that the use of "he" is not wrong. Has Morrision stated a preference?

  11. #206
    Mighty Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wleakr View Post
    So what pronoun would you recommend be used?

    A quick search came up with this: "Many non-binary people use “they” while others use “he” or “she,” and still others use other pronouns."

    It appears that the use of "he" is not wrong. Has Morrision stated a preference?
    they makes it sound like 2 or more people. Just to be safe and not piss anyone off just say Morrision but wikipedia says They so maybe They
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

  12. #207
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It's not Silver Age fanboyism so much, it's just Morrison's own dark reaction to 9/11 overwhelming his artistic instincts. Morrison's manifesto does talk about the X-Men needing to change and evolve and so on. So this isn't at all like John Byrne (who was hateful to Magneto as a character and repeatedly went out of his way to undermine Chris Claremont's work redeeming him multiple times). I just think it's a case of a talented writer making a mistake from a place of sincerity. That can happen. Sometimes talented people make mistakes and they do it for the most understandable reasons.
    Right, I tend to forget 9/11 is a thing, much less that it affected comics lol.

    At the very least, Morrison had enough decency to not make a muslim super terrorist shit, though using Magneto for that is still bad, guess he wanted that shit to have impact and kill off someone known to the fans, as opposed to just using a new character for that.

    About the only writer who had a proper reaction to 9/11 at Marvel in that time was JMS. His 9/11 tribute issue includes a plea for tolerance and an insistence that USA don't persecute Muslims for the actions of the few. He was a vocal opponent to the Iraq War at a time it was popular and his famous issue of DOOMED AFFAIRS can be seen as an allegory for America's involvement in the War on Terror. You have Latverian terrorists attacking Doom at Denver Airport but in the process they inflict collateral damage and Spider-Man and Captain America save everyone, including Doom from those attacks. That goes at the heart of the "take out the Dictator" argument used to justify Iraq. And JMS presented the terrorists attacking Denver as driven by understandable motivations to doing something terrible.

    Everybody else just took it badly -- Mark Millar's schizoid Civil War, his hyper-militaristic propaganda in The Ultimates (which he said was intended to be criticial of Bush but came out in fact as pro-War on Terror), Morrison with Planet X. And of course in independent comics, you had Frank Miller tanking his career with Holy Terror.
    I'll never find Ultimates not amusing, how does someone fuck up this bad when trying to pass a message when the message is the exact opposite of what the story says? 'Cause while the story shows awful people being involved there, specially with the disgusting lies about the Hulk not being involved with Ultimates to save face, they still end up saving the world in the end, so it comes across as necessary evil.

  13. #208
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    When people talk about Ultimates, the only thing that comes to me is "Are you sure that this wasn't a parody?".

    Is just such a bizarre story, that is hard for me to see it as some sort of modernization

  14. #209
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    When people talk about Ultimates, the only thing that comes to me is "Are you sure that this wasn't a parody?".

    Is just such a bizarre story, that is hard for me to see it as some sort of modernization
    The Ultimates actually began production before 9/11. But in the middle of it the attacks happened and that changed the mood of the comic completely. Which is why Mark Millar's claims later that he was being critical of US policy is baloney, because in the immediate aftermath of the attacks the global opinion was on America's side. Originally Millar and Bryan Hitch had intended The Ultimates to be a light-hearted thing closer in spirit to the classic stories. It was Bryan Hitch who was the one who pushed for that and Hitch is in a sense the more defining and influential creative force than Millar on The Ultimates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Right, I tend to forget 9/11 is a thing, much less that it affected comics lol.
    So much for "never forget"...we repeated it so often that people ended up forgetting. That and I think the Pandemic (which kills double the 9/11 deathtolls every week in USA) has kind of overshadowed it now.

    I'll never find Ultimates not amusing, how does someone fuck up this bad when trying to pass a message when the message is the exact opposite of what the story says? 'Cause while the story shows awful people being involved there, specially with the disgusting lies about the Hulk not being involved with Ultimates to save face, they still end up saving the world in the end, so it comes across as necessary evil.
    Mark Millar is fundamentally an opportunist and a hack. He's out to do and say the most provocative things to get attention and fame. So I think with Ultimates and his other comics, he was catering to a certrain strain of conservative or conservative-curious comics fan.

  15. #210
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    There is a great article about last Remands,reading it seems it could be spot on. In OMD when spider-man made a deal he resurrected harry to
    reading the posts somehow we got away from it

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