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  1. #106
    Fantastic Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    I feel like "Kindred" was much, much different when Spencer first started this run, and that the "Kindred" we're getting now is a reworked and edited version of the original character, because none of this makes any sort of sense.
    This. I totally agree. We got kindred hyped up as this demonic entity, with powers beyond our imagination... And now it's a Harry with a mask.

    Could it be editorial meddling? :P

    The reveal feels kind of weak tbh. I hope it's not something like "Hello Pete, ya see... I've got this magic thingmajiggy so I can now mess up with everything". I kinda liked Harry Osborn after his resurrection, and I hoped that this Kindred would be some kind of evil OMD one...

    Still, the reference that if Peter dies, he is going to wake in BND is funny.

  2. #107
    Astonishing Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    This. I totally agree. We got kindred hyped up as this demonic entity, with powers beyond our imagination... And now it's a Harry with a mask.

    Could it be editorial meddling? :P

    The reveal feels kind of weak tbh. I hope it's not something like "Hello Pete, ya see... I've got this magic thingmajiggy so I can now mess up with everything". I kinda liked Harry Osborn after his resurrection, and I hoped that this Kindred would be some kind of evil OMD one...

    Still, the reference that if Peter dies, he is going to wake in BND is funny.
    Nah. It’s been Harry from the start. We barely SAW Kindred at the beginning other than affecting Mysterio in his dreams and creeping over Peter/MJ. He’s doing the pretty much exact same here in Last Remains.

  3. #108
    Fantastic Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    Nah. It’s been Harry from the start. We barely SAW Kindred at the beginning other than affecting Mysterio in his dreams and creeping over Peter/MJ. He’s doing the pretty much exact same here in Last Remains.
    I think the mask is my main problem. Kindred feels so... Normal, when he has Harry's face. Maybe next thing he'll do will be to take out his face, and reveal Kindred's face again

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    Count me in on the “minority”, too. Its wonderfully atmospheric.

    As much as others are complaining about this story, they’re still equally anticipating the next issue. I’ve not had that for such a long time on Spider-Man.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    Yeah, despite it being short read it was done masterfully and I've spent more time with it than the majority of other issues that I just read once and never revisited. I've gone back to these pages over and over to look at them and dwell in them.

    Currently I'm fixated on the line "Speak of the devil and he appears." I remember that line thinking it was another one done in poor taste so seeing that called out in the way it was really hits home with me. This book was just so cinematic I really love it the more I return to it.
    It was not done "masterfully" though: the creepy atmosphere here is done well, admittedly, and recontextualizing the dialogue in this context is intriguing. But masterfully? Cinematic? That's just more hyperbole that'll get us mediocre Spider-Man stories for the next ten years.

    If you hate OMD and want to see it undone, then yes, this would be a perfect issue. But if you want that AND good Spider-Man stories that are well-made comics, then this issue is not that. I don't think it's unfair to ask for both, especially because Spencer CAN do that, as he has in the past.

    This notion that it's just complaining is incredibly shortsighted. There are those who expect more from their superhero comics besides the bare minimum.

  5. #110
    Incredible Member stillanerd's Avatar
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    I'm also thinking maybe, after Mephisto made his deal with Peter and MJ in "One More Day," he then went to Norman Osborn with another deal to bring Harry Osborn back from the dead. That would line up with things "Sensitive Norman" has been saying during this arc, and explains away some of the contradictions about Harry's return in "Mind on Fire" (like how did the same defective Goblin formula that killed him also revived him? etc). Not to mention it's totally in Mephisto's MO. He promised both Peter and MJ that he'd never interfere in their lives ever again...but that didn't mean somebody else wouldn't.
    --Mike McNulty, a.k.a. Stillanerd. Contributor for Bam Smack Pow! and Viral Hare
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  6. #111
    Fantastic Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillanerd View Post
    I'm also thinking maybe, after Mephisto made his deal with Peter and MJ in "One More Day," he then went to Norman Osborn with another deal to bring Harry Osborn back from the dead. That would line up with things "Sensitive Norman" has been saying during this arc, and explains away some of the contradictions about Harry's return in "Mind on Fire" (like how did the same defective Goblin formula that killed him also revived him? etc). Not to mention it's totally in Mephisto's MO. He promised both Peter and MJ that he'd never interfere in their lives ever again...but that didn't mean somebody else wouldn't.
    I really like that theory.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rzerox21xx View Post
    That shot of Harry and Carlie at the party, looking evil, I can't help to see thats how I always viewed Carlie lol, and maybe she's in on this?
    That could explain Carlie’s weird behavior in Spencer’s run. Or maybe that was just a red herring for Kindred theorists.
    Man, I know a lot of people didn’t seem to care for this issue as not much happened, but I think the whole point of this is to feel nightmarish as though time doesn’t make sense. As with the preview we’re getting OMD with Bagley following the same panel layout, nearly identically. I’ve said this before, but I want Spencer to stay on this book forever. If he wrote Spider-Man till he passed away, I would still buy every issue Interesting Harry looks normal under the mask. I know every artist has drawn Kindred differently, but we’ve seen a lot of rotten teeth(especially with Ottley’s interpretation) just feels a bit odd for him to look 100 percent normal beneath the mask. Interesting to see that Kindred resurrected Peter already. Thought for sure he was taking him to hell.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty20 View Post
    That could explain Carlie’s weird behavior in Spencer’s run. Or maybe that was just a red herring for Kindred theorists.
    Man, I know a lot of people didn’t seem to care for this issue as not much happened, but I think the whole point of this is to feel nightmarish as though time doesn’t make sense. As with the preview we’re getting OMD with Bagley following the same panel layout, nearly identically. I’ve said this before, but I want Spencer to stay on this book forever. If he wrote Spider-Man till he passed away, I would still buy every issue Interesting Harry looks normal under the mask. I know every artist has drawn Kindred differently, but we’ve seen a lot of rotten teeth(especially with Ottley’s interpretation) just feels a bit odd for him to look 100 percent normal beneath the mask. Interesting to see that Kindred resurrected Peter already. Thought for sure he was taking him to hell.
    If Spencer wrote Spider-Man forever, he would eventually be unreadable.

  9. #114
    Astonishing Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    It was not done "masterfully" though: the creepy atmosphere here is done well, admittedly, and recontextualizing the dialogue in this context is intriguing. But masterfully? Cinematic? That's just more hyperbole that'll get us mediocre Spider-Man stories for the next ten years.

    If you hate OMD and want to see it undone, then yes, this would be a perfect issue. But if you want that AND good Spider-Man stories that are well-made comics, then this issue is not that. I don't think it's unfair to ask for both, especially because Spencer CAN do that, as he has in the past.

    This notion that it's just complaining is incredibly shortsighted. There are those who expect more from their superhero comics besides the bare minimum.
    You didn’t like it. I did.

    Please don’t tell me what this issue is and isn’t. If it didn’t work for you, that’s absolutely fine.

    I appreciate the complaints, but I also think if this was condensed into smaller issues it would also risk the complaint that Spencer is rushing through this story and missing the scary, atmospheric beats that we are getting at the moment. So it’s a fine line.

    As I said before, its still got pretty much all of us on this forum pretty anxious and dying to pick up the next issue. It’s still got us anxious as to what will and won’t be addressed in terms of OMD. I, personally, haven’t been left really wanting to know what happens next for quite some time like I am with this.

    Spencer is crafting something crazy big here. I’d allow him the space he wants to tell it in

  10. #115
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    why don't we all agree that this story is definitely polarizing us fans. There isn't enough info right now to give a decent opinion. I am not really a fan of what is going on but some of you like it. To each their own. I feel like i may have to sit back until the whole story is done and read it as a whole before i can make anymore judgments or complaints.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    You didn’t like it. I did.

    Please don’t tell me what this issue is and isn’t. If it didn’t work for you, that’s absolutely fine.

    I appreciate the complaints, but I also think if this was condensed into smaller issues it would also risk the complaint that Spencer is rushing through this story and missing the scary, atmospheric beats that we are getting at the moment. So it’s a fine line.

    As I said before, its still got pretty much all of us on this forum pretty anxious and dying to pick up the next issue. It’s still got us anxious as to what will and won’t be addressed in terms of OMD. I, personally, haven’t been left really wanting to know what happens next for quite some time like I am with this.

    Spencer is crafting something crazy big here. I’d allow him the space he wants to tell it in
    Alright, if I can't tell you what this issue is or isn't, then you can't do the same to me. Quid pro quo, right? Or rather, is it that instead of seeing this issue's faults, you ignore them and blaze right on to the "good stuff"?

    And what is actually crazy about this story? More supernatural elements in Spider-Man that fans didn't like before? Bringing characters back from the dead when they didn't need to be? Retconning retcons because retcons gotta retcon?
    When does it end? When does this become more about moving the story forward rather than just referencing or winking to the past again and again? I mean, come on: Spencer's run has done entirely that - whether it's restoring past relationships, killing off Kraven and explaining stuff for Mysterio and Sin-Eater, or even now with Kindred/Harry...it's just a retconning run which is not bad, but doesn't make for the most exciting superhero book either.

    What has Spencer done with Peter that is truly new or crazy?
    Peter dies? He's died like twice before.
    Peter has Gog as a pet? Okay...?
    Peter is friends with Boomerang? Big whoop, he dated a former thief in Black Cat.
    Peter has the Clairvoyant device? Except he doesn't, because he used it twice (that sure would've come in handy for "Sins Rising")
    Peter and MJ get back together? Cool, next.
    Peter remembers OMD? Okay, sure, but that's still reliant on OMD being there to begin with and retconning that.

    The only new thing is Spider-Man and Green Goblin teaming up. Outside of that, Peter himself hasn't experienced anything new - everyone else around him has.

    Giving Spencer the benefit of the doubt is one thing; making him seem like the best Spider-Man writer since JMS is another. Like I mentioned, I've been guilty of that, and I've since rescinded that claim.

  12. #117
    Astonishing Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    why don't we all agree that this story is definitely polarizing us fans. There isn't enough info right now to give a decent opinion. I am not really a fan of what is going on but some of you like it. To each their own. I feel like i may have to sit back until the whole story is done and read it as a whole before i can make anymore judgments or complaints.
    Completely agree.
    You have to remember this story has come from 2 years of speculating and build up. There was already a ****-ton of expectations on this, so it might not be how people expected it to go down. It’s hard for any story to deliver against hype.

    But as you say, when taking a step back and looking at this story, we might all think differently.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    why don't we all agree that this story is definitely polarizing us fans. There isn't enough info right now to give a decent opinion. I am not really a fan of what is going on but some of you like it. To each their own. I feel like i may have to sit back until the whole story is done and read it as a whole before i can make anymore judgments or complaints.
    But haven't we had enough polarization? Why does every freakin' Spider-Man story involve some type of polarization now? Like with the PS4 game: that story was incredible, and celebrated the legacy of Spider-Man without polarizing people. Sure, some had issues with a few minor things, but overall, widely regarded as the best Spider-Man adaptation since Spectacular. Did it have to polarize? No, so why do the comics get a pass?

    I'm so sick and tired of superhero comics going to controversy or shock value first before good storytelling.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    I'm so sick and tired of superhero comics going to controversy or shock value first before good storytelling.
    On this we agree.

    Except I don't think Spencer's issue is polarizing in terms of content, it's the execution that's the issue.

    The debate if there is one, is if a single bad issue undoes the entire run which is otherwise as we agree pure perfection...

    I've always said I liked Spencer's run but it doesn't rank as high for me as JMS' or the Pre-OMD glory days.

  15. #120
    Astonishing Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Alright, if I can't tell you what this issue is or isn't, then you can't do the same to me. Quid pro quo, right? Or rather, is it that instead of seeing this issue's faults, you ignore them and blaze right on to the "good stuff"?

    And what is actually crazy about this story? More supernatural elements in Spider-Man that fans didn't like before? Bringing characters back from the dead when they didn't need to be? Retconning retcons because retcons gotta retcon?
    When does it end? When does this become more about moving the story forward rather than just referencing or winking to the past again and again? I mean, come on: Spencer's run has done entirely that - whether it's restoring past relationships, killing off Kraven and explaining stuff for Mysterio and Sin-Eater, or even now with Kindred/Harry...it's just a retconning run which is not bad, but doesn't make for the most exciting superhero book either.

    What has Spencer done with Peter that is truly new or crazy?
    Peter dies? He's died like twice before.
    Peter has Gog as a pet? Okay...?
    Peter is friends with Boomerang? Big whoop, he dated a former thief in Black Cat.
    Peter has the Clairvoyant device? Except he doesn't, because he used it twice (that sure would've come in handy for "Sins Rising")
    Peter and MJ get back together? Cool, next.
    Peter remembers OMD? Okay, sure, but that's still reliant on OMD being there to begin with and retconning that.

    The only new thing is Spider-Man and Green Goblin teaming up. Outside of that, Peter himself hasn't experienced anything new - everyone else around him has.

    Giving Spencer the benefit of the doubt is one thing; making him seem like the best Spider-Man writer since JMS is another. Like I mentioned, I've been guilty of that, and I've since rescinded that claim.
    Not once have I told you what to think of this issue. I asked you not to. Then explained that there would be similar problems if this story was more condensed. The only thing I expressed was that the way Spencer was writing this story was a fine line, and it seems the two of us have fallen on either side. Both sides aren’t wrong, both sides aren’t right.

    Spencer is addressing OMD. Something that occurred 10 years ago that has been a huge elephant in the room for so long and a recurring conversation amongst Spidey fans. That’s what’s crazy about it. You can’t tell me you were simply “expecting” a story like this to address it? A lot of people are hyped about this run (maybe rightly or wrongly so. For all we know it might not go as far as we are hoping it will in terms of OMD)...but Spencer knows this, too. I mean this whole issue was pointing out OMD. I appreciate if you don’t think it’s a big story. But I do. Especially by also trying to respect everything that came AFTER too.

    I don’t know where I stand on Spencer’s run. There’s been great moments (Sins Rising) and piss poor moments (2099, Clairvoyant stuff - all of which I absolutely agree with you on.) I’m just expressing my thoughts and appreciating what I THINK Spencer is trying to do.

    And if he does address OMD, and deal with the ramifications, and manage to remove that horrible black stain it’s left on the franchise for as long as it has...then I’d warrant that as “crazy big”

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