Amazing Spider-Man 53 Discussion

[Vortex85]

The one thing i want from all this is for Peter and MJ get back together, whether its by having OMD is removed cool or if they know of it and decide to pursue a new path together which leads them into conflict with Mephisto the also cool, but overall i want them together again even if it isn't like the old days. If Spencer can deliver that then i will sing his praises regardless of the quality of the event itself.

Spencer got them back together in the first issue of his run, LOL. If he did that before this, there must be more to the point than just getting them back together.

[Vortex85]

Well he does have 2 more issues of LR as well to help out but yea...going to be difficult since we are more then half way done with this story.

Issues #56-58 "End of an Era" may be aftermath / fallout issues that will deal with some of the ramifications of Last Remains so maybe he doesn't need to fit everything into just issue 54 and 55.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Issues #56-58 "End of an Era" may be aftermath / fallout issues that will deal with some of the ramifications of Last Remains so maybe he doesn't need to fit everything into just issue 54 and 55.

I mean as it is, Last Remains continues from Sins Rising, it's a really long extended Watchmen level saga.

And you know Watchmen, the major villain and his scheme, introduced and done away with in the last two issues. The Galactus Trilogy, just three issues. So it can be wrapped up in 2 issues.

Ok maybe I was confused between that and him not liking thought bubbles. From what you said since it was industry wide he probably didn't cause it then.

Joe Quesada has a lot of weird, in my view, very wrong ideas but I don't know if it's a case where he's in a position to outright dictate stuff and standards around. Or if it's a case that he's more bark than bite.

When he started as EIC at Marvel in 2000 or so, he gave writers a free hand. Morrison, JMS, and others. Sometimes too free (as with Chuck Austen, and also Morrison's final story arcs).

When he was editor for Marvel Knights, he worked with Christopher Priest on Black Panther, and allowed Priest to basically write his own way and encouraged him to use the third-person non-linear style he used in creator owned titles at the time.

So this bit about Quesada ixnaying thought bubbles or narration, I think that's more him taking credit for something that was already a thing of the past or some office rumor/joke. With Joey Q. it's both.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The Green Goblin identity was only “well-done” because his actual identity wasn’t very important (not to mention Lee and Ditko hadn’t actually thought about who he would actually be yet). You can’t really compare that to this.

Not this tired old song.

Ditko intended Norman Osborn to be Green Goblin all along. He introduced and inserted Norman into the background of his issues long before he gave the character the name, or introduced his son Harry Osborn. We see that in the Crime Master Saga.



As for general disillusionment of Nick Spencer's run...here's the thing, the longer runs on Spider-Man are far more inconsistent than the shorter ones. Lee Romita is less consistent than Ditko. Conway, Stern, Defalco are more consistent than Michelinie, JMS, Slott. With 50 issues under his belt, Spencer has a long run too, and a drop in consistency is not unexpected.

Still Spencer has been more consistent than others.

[Lukmendes]

The Green Goblin mystery came well...it's only the Hobgoblin getting f--ked up (by everyone, Stern included) that gives mystery stories in ASM a bad name.

But Spencer hewed close to the Ditko line. He honored his committment.

I don't think the Green Goblin one is good at all, since whenever he showed up, we had this tease that he had a secret identity, which was fine, the problem is that he was Norman, whose only presence was a bunch of cameos, which are very scarce to begin with (ASM#23, #25, and #26, and he debutted in ASM#14 as Green Goblin) until he becomes an actual character in ASM#37, and we learn that he's Green Goblin in ASM#39, so basically under normal conditions, there's just no way to guess Green Goblin is Norman until ASM#37 at least since the reader probably won't even remember that random guy who looks like Sandman, so by being a mystery that can't be solved, or even guessed, until this late, it's rather mediocre.

At the very least, what happened afterwards is better than Hobgoblin, since Norman was developed more as a character which gave Peter reasons to not have him arrested, even if really irresponsible and dumb to do that, but the mystery itself still sucks.

Hickman does use third person narration, like the landmark instant-classic "The Uncanny Life of Moira X" (HOX#2) used third person narration. His run on New Avengers and others used third person too...and then you have the famous charts.

So yeah he's an exception...and oh hey I guess that means that there's no ban on using third-person narration at Marvel at all.

HoX#2 using third person narration was really weird though, 'cause we see that Moira herself is telling the same story as the narration in two pages, but anywhere else when she's not telling the story, the narration goes to third person, when it'd make more sense to be first person, specially considering it was a blatantly personal story since while it's in third person, it's only talking about her, and her thoughts... So yeah, weird.

But yeah, Hickman is more than enough evidence that third person narration can be used just fine, writers are just choosing to not do it, which I can understand why, for most situations, first person works better.

The Green Goblin identity was only “well-done” because his actual identity wasn’t very important (not to mention Lee and Ditko hadn’t actually thought about who he would actually be yet). You can’t really compare that to this.

Even if that were true, that doesn't make the mystery look good, 'cause it'd mean that they didn't plan until ASM#37 started to show Norman's character, despite Green Goblin debutting in ASM#14, which is really late for that considering, again, we learn who he is in ASM#39.

But it's not true, Norman is even in that club with JJ, and ASM#25 has Peter seeing JJ talking with Norman and thinking Norman must be important since JJ was smilling, Ditko said somewhere that he planted Norman there for drama later, so having it planned since at most ASM#23, and doing fucking nothing with Norman until ASM#37? Meh.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

But it's not true, Norman is even in that club with JJ, and ASM#25 has Peter seeing JJ talking with Norman and thinking Norman must be important since JJ was smilling, Ditko said somewhere that he planted Norman there for drama later, so having it planned since at most ASM#23, and doing fucking nothing with Norman until ASM#37? Meh.

With Goblin and Norman, it was suspense more than surprise. You know Green Goblin has a secret identity and that he and Spider-Man are on some collision course but how it happens is what counts.

Kindred is similar, suspense more than surprise. There was never a series of red herrings or guesses about who Kindred is, the same with Green Goblin who Peter never stops wondering or investigating.

Hobgoblin was the story that made a to-do with red-herrings, false suspects, and Detective Spider-Man on the case...and it doesn't work. Roderick Kingsley wasn't set up well to have a big impact at the time Stern left the title. I agree with Defalco that Kingsley, at the time, was a weak culprit and Stern needed to do more work to make him being the bad guy land.

In general, Marvel doesn't do mystery or detective stories. Most of the time it's suspense...you know Surtur smashing and forging a blade in a galaxy over several issues before he shows up. DC for instance do have landmark mystery stories with detective work and investigation -- HUSH, The Long Halloween to name a few. But Marvel has never had that, even with Daredevil or The Punisher.

Think of Marvel and DC like Nite Owl and Rorschach in WATCHMEN. Nite Owl is the pragmatic dude with gadgets who's a little staid but who keeps his head level and knows how to sift through dead ends to see the larger pattern...then you have Rorschach whose approach to crime solving is f--k around, get into fights, and then stumble into messes before you get somewhere.

So Marvel storytelling is Rorschach school of deduction, and DC is Nite Owl. The death of Jean DeWolff bears that out too.

[PCN24454]

Not this tired old song.

Ditko intended Norman Osborn to be Green Goblin all along. He introduced and inserted Norman into the background of his issues long before he gave the character the name, or introduced his son Harry Osborn. We see that in the Crime Master Saga.



As for general disillusionment of Nick Spencer's run...here's the thing, the longer runs on Spider-Man are far more inconsistent than the shorter ones. Lee Romita is less consistent than Ditko. Conway, Stern, Defalco are more consistent than Michelinie, JMS, Slott. With 50 issues under his belt, Spencer has a long run too, and a drop in consistency is not unexpected.

Still Spencer has been more consistent than others.

And thus the biggest problem with Spencer’s run is said. It’s consistently bad.

None of the these problems are out of nowhere. They were there from the start.

[Lukmendes]

As for general disillusionment of Nick Spencer's run...here's the thing, the longer runs on Spider-Man are far more inconsistent than the shorter ones. Lee Romita is less consistent than Ditko. Conway, Stern, Defalco are more consistent than Michelinie, JMS, Slott. With 50 issues under his belt, Spencer has a long run too, and a drop in consistency is not unexpected.

Still Spencer has been more consistent than others.

Of all the places for the quality to drop though... Two years in the making, over 50 issues building up for the confrontation between Peter and Kindred, the quality drops here? In this moment that we've been waiting for? It's almost like waiting for train that's really late, and when it finally arrives, it explodes, then someone steals your wallet too.

With Goblin and Norman, it was suspense more than surprise. You know Green Goblin has a secret identity and that he and Spider-Man are on some collision course but how it happens is what counts.

I mean, if it's more about the suspense of Green Goblin's actions than the surprise of who hides behind the mask, then the mystery not only sucks, but is kinda pointless too, at least until the reveal, 'cause after Norman lost his memory, the guy behind the mask really mattered for Peter to not have him arrested.

Kindred is similar, suspense more than surprise. There was never a series of red herrings or guesses about who Kindred is, the same with Green Goblin who Peter never stops wondering or investigating.

Kindred is blatantly about the surprise since he has this personal connection with Peter, talking so often about how much he knows Peter, it's not a mystery for Peter since he was only vaguely aware of Kindred, it's a mystery for the readers even if Peter isn't actively investigating and wondering, because the story is made so the readers are investigating and wondering, ASM#24 is one such case where Kindred's past is briefly talked about to leave a few clues, but there's no better example than the Absolute Carnage tie-in, Peter had no idea that Kindred talked with Norman, but we saw that scene, and it left clues that made so many people make deductions like Harry, Gwen, uncle Ben, George, Pre-OMD Peter, the Burglar, Carlie, Ezekiel, Flash, whoever the **** else, so how much Peter was investigating is irrelevant, 'cause it kept the readers guessing.

But even if Kindred was only about the suspense, then that sucked too, because of how repetitive his "I'll do something very evil to you eventually Pete!" is, vague threats can only work for so long when the character does fucking nothing, and he's so vague we don't even know why Kindred waited that long to act since all he did was resurrect Sin Eater, didn't look like he was gatheting anything to actually need to wait that long, wasting time with all of those vague threats.

Hobgoblin was the story that made a to-do with red-herrings, false suspects, and Detective Spider-Man on the case...and it doesn't work. Roderick Kingsley wasn't set up well to have a big impact at the time Stern left the title. I agree with Defalco that Kingsley, at the time, was a weak culprit and Stern needed to do more work to make him being the bad guy land.

Whether or not Hobgoblin is worse as a mystery is irrelevant, 'cause my point is that none of them are good, and Kindred is continuing a disgraceful tradition lol.

In general, Marvel doesn't do mystery or detective stories. Most of the time it's suspense...you know Surtur smashing and forging a blade in a galaxy over several issues before he shows up. DC for instance do have landmark mystery stories with detective work and investigation -- HUSH, The Long Halloween to name a few. But Marvel has never had that, even with Daredevil or The Punisher.

Now that you point it out, Born Again under DC would have you wondering who is fucking over Matt's life, but we already know who it is by the first issue.

Think of Marvel and DC like Nite Owl and Rorschach in WATCHMEN. Nite Owl is the pragmatic dude with gadgets who's a little staid but who keeps his head level and knows how to sift through dead ends to see the larger pattern...then you have Rorschach whose approach to crime solving is f--k around, get into fights, and then stumble into messes before you get somewhere.

So Marvel storytelling is Rorschach school of deduction, and DC is Nite Owl. The death of Jean DeWolff bears that out too.

The way you described it makes Marvel sound so dumb and simplistic while DC knows what they're doing lol.

Imma just point out that Identity Crisis and Heroes in Crisis exists to remind y'all that DC's mysteries can be peak garbage

Anyways, if we're making weird comparisons, then Kindred is like Young Justice's The Light from season 1, only without the part where they spent the entire season gathering what they need for their plan, justifying why they waited so long to conquer the League, and so far in ASM we have nothing like that, so Kindred is sitting on his ass until he randomly decides to resurrect Sin Eater to finally do something.

Man, I really, really like talking about The Light... For better and worse, those fuckers left me an impression, congrats Weisman lol.

Also just realized that ASM#37 is when Norman finally starts doing ****, becoming an actual character and being active in the plot, and in Spencer's ASM, issue #37 is when Kindred actually starts his plan, wonder if that's a weird coincidence, or Spencer wanted to line that up lol.

[HypnoHustler]

Enough has been said about the story. Am I the only one disappointed in the art? This inker's scratchy style really didn't suit Bagley. I also feel like Bagley has fallen off a bit since the 90s and early 2000s.

[HypnoHustler]

As for the issue itself, everyone is down on it, but I thought the twisted reinterpretation of the BND birthday scene was pretty cool. And c'mon, why would that be included unless OMD was being undone soon. Otherwise that's such a random scene.

[HypnoHustler]

That entire replay of the OMD epilogue is basically redone to convey how readers felt as opposed to how that scene was originally intended. That part was master-level trolling on Spencer's part.

Totally agree. Spencer is probably well aware how unpopular that OMD/BND transition was (Slott was as well... the difference is Spencer actually cares and is taking steps to address it). I don't think it's "trolling." I think all this OMD/BND stuff is coming to a head soon. Whether that means it's undone, I don't know. Maybe it'll be technically undone, but so much time has passed Peter and MJ won't get remarried.

[FFJamie94]

I've not read the issue yet (but I feel like I know everything about it).
I will say this, Spencer had a lot of things going against him during his run. Now I don't think his run has been perfect. Is it the best Spider-man run since JMS? Nope, not really. Is it the best run on Amazing since JMS? Maybe, the only other run I can think of that matches it was Slott's Big Time to Superior era. I'll say that the amazing book is at the highest point since then, which isn't saying much as I don't really like a lot of Slott's post superior work.
I think for the most part, Marvel have tried to dance around the deal for way too long. It's gotten to a point where they wouldn't leave it alone, but they also wouldn't address it. A lot of praise I see for Spencer seems to be his willingness to tackle OMD head on instead of flirting with the idea.

I will admit, I do have issues with his run, the stretched out plot points can be kind of grating. Kindred wasn't one of those, I liked the mystery behind the character. He has been the underlying villain for the first 50 issues of the run and has made his presence known a few times to Spider-man.
No, I'm talking about the life tablet, that was a story point which started in the FCBD special and wasn't resolved until 40 issues later, where it was barely mentioned. What about the Ned Leeds Clone and his warning about Betty Brant? That plot point just seems to be forgotten about.
The underuse of the supporting cast too, I would like to see more with these characters. One of my favourite arcs was the two parter where Peter hung out with Boomerang. That was a lot of fun, I'd like to see more of that.

I do like the run, I like it a lot, but I feel like with most things, People feel way too strongly about it. What I'm getting from this is just a fun run which tackles the darker aspects of Spider-man storytelling and addresses a story from 15 years ago.

I don't know how much longer Spencer has on the book, from the ways things have been going, I'd say he doesn't plan to stay on it for too long. Right now all the plot points seem to be coming to a close. I'm hoping the next thing to be addressed will be the Betty Brant thing, I don't know when we'll see it however.

As for Last Remains, I'm honestly excited to see where it's going. I don't think we would have got a story like this is Slott's run. He was more focused on doing his own thing, Spencer just seems to be fixing a lot of the issues that People had with BND.

I'll be able to give my proper thoughts when this arc ends, maybe one day I'll do an overview of the whole of Spencer's run.

[RD155]

Enough has been said about the story. Am I the only one disappointed in the art? This inker's scratchy style really didn't suit Bagley. I also feel like Bagley has fallen off a bit since the 90s and early 2000s.

I’ve been saying this for a long time now and that’s coming from a die hard Bagley fan. He’s easily my favorite artist ever but the artwork has definitely dipped. I always felt he was in his absolute artistic prime during his first ASM and USM run. No one IMO penciled a better Spider-Man then he did during that timespan. The artwork is still great but when you compare it to his work in the past, it’s definitely fallen off.

[SplinteringHeart]

With Goblin and Norman, it was suspense more than surprise. You know Green Goblin has a secret identity and that he and Spider-Man are on some collision course but how it happens is what counts.

Kindred is similar, suspense more than surprise. There was never a series of red herrings or guesses about who Kindred is, the same with Green Goblin who Peter never stops wondering or investigating.

Hobgoblin was the story that made a to-do with red-herrings, false suspects, and Detective Spider-Man on the case...and it doesn't work. Roderick Kingsley wasn't set up well to have a big impact at the time Stern left the title. I agree with Defalco that Kingsley, at the time, was a weak culprit and Stern needed to do more work to make him being the bad guy land.

In general, Marvel doesn't do mystery or detective stories. Most of the time it's suspense...you know Surtur smashing and forging a blade in a galaxy over several issues before he shows up. DC for instance do have landmark mystery stories with detective work and investigation -- HUSH, The Long Halloween to name a few. But Marvel has never had that, even with Daredevil or The Punisher.

Think of Marvel and DC like Nite Owl and Rorschach in WATCHMEN. Nite Owl is the pragmatic dude with gadgets who's a little staid but who keeps his head level and knows how to sift through dead ends to see the larger pattern...then you have Rorschach whose approach to crime solving is f--k around, get into fights, and then stumble into messes before you get somewhere.

So Marvel storytelling is Rorschach school of deduction, and DC is Nite Owl. The death of Jean DeWolff bears that out too.

Like the analysis RJack

[SplinteringHeart]

If we get OMD addressed, and Pete and MJ remember the marriage, well then, what about the lost baby? Tricky...