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  1. #241
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingkalamari View Post
    Who are some other characters that were introduced as a new character but revealed to be an existing character just glowed up? Kindred and Hush are the immediate two that come to mind for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Actually Hush was new, is one of the reasons for why many people mock that story "oh my god who could be Hush, this new never mentioned long lost childhood friend of Bruce or everyone else" the story didn't exactlty have many suspects.
    Yeah, Hush doesn't count. The original story presented HUSH as a new villain and the finale presented him as being Tommy Elliot, this new supporting character inserted into the backstory.

    Xorn and Magneto is a good example from recent Marvel history. Morrison introduced Xorn, this new Chinese mutant with a cool mask and presented him as a good guy. What helped was that Morrison introduced many new characters in his run, and so Xorn seemed to fit in with the new class of characters. The way Morrison of course executed that denouement though ruined his entire scheme.

    There are other examples I am sure.
    -- The Thunderbolts Issue #1 is a good example of this being done with a whole team. An entire new team of superheroes was promoted in a build up to issue#1 and then it was revealed that this is the Masters of Evil in disguise.
    -- Technically Red Hood being Jason Todd? I mean the original "Under the Red Hood" story had Red Hood introduced as a legacy villain, someone taking over Joker's original identity. And then it was revealed that it was Jason Todd resurrected.

  2. #242
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingkalamari View Post
    Who are some other characters that were introduced as a new character but revealed to be an existing character just glowed up? Kindred and Hush are the immediate two that come to mind for me.
    Wouldn't say Kindred is exactly this case, 'cause even back in ASM#1 he was heavily implying that he's someone Peter knows, and over time this only became more obvious.

  3. #243
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    I'd say so just because his personality, powerset, and design is totally different from everything we knew about Harry up to that point, especially with Harry using Goblin tech in a heroic way in Absolute Carnage immediately parallel to ASM.

    Oh yeah Xorn for sure. In fact I think I recall Morrison saying similar stuff about Magneto that Spencer said about Harry, in which both of them felt the character belonged as a villain and they didnt like the way they went away from that.

    And oh of course! T-Bolts are 100% this for sure, but at least no waiting game there to uncover their identity. What interesting about the original lineup is the entire team minus Zemo maintained their original costumes over their old ones, with even Melissa and Abe maintaining their Thunderbolt names over their villian names.

    I'm not too good with Bats stuff so apologies on the Hush goof. Red Hood makes sense though for sure.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingkalamari View Post
    Who are some other characters that were introduced as a new character but revealed to be an existing character just glowed up? Kindred and Hush are the immediate two that come to mind for me.
    Kinda cheating since itís a video game, but Arkham Knight.

  5. #245
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    Like others said, the Decompression really kinda ruins both this issue and almost the story as a whole. I also am concerned the Harry reveal is a fake out and it will be re-revealed it's someone else, but the Norman stuff suggests otherwise. Altogether I do think it could have been executed better.

    However, I almost don't care because this story line is definitely about OMD and is going to be about Peter both knowing what he did and regretting it completely. So the big picture sells me on it just like how the big picture kinda ruins BND for me. All I need now is reformed Norman to admit that abomination from 2004 never happened and the Twins are clones.



    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I find it funny how many people said that they didn't read Slott's run yet believe that they had the right to criticize it.

    His run until Superior was great, except for The Gauntlet/Grim Hunt.
    Remember when Spider-Man started shouting "No One Dies" everywhere like a small child having a tantrum? Ha.....bad times.

    Slott was always bad. New Ways to Die is almost good but the ending ruins it.


    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    I think Spencer is definitely comparable to Tom King on "Batman" for me. Great ideas, even better than how he executes them compared to King, but my goodness both love their decompression. Thankfully, with Spencer, he assured people that it's going somewhere, and I trust that it will. But yeah: two extensive runs that are, at least for now, redefining these characters in new/old ways, for better or worse.

    Both have their faults, but I ultimately enjoy/enjoyed both.
    I only caught the back half of King's run but I will say I found it to be pretty disappointing, honestly. So this comparison Scares me.

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanParkerMan View Post
    I've been disappointed overall with Spender's run. I agree with everything you're saying. For me, Last Remains is certainly more interesting because of the OMD stuff but if you take OMD off the table, Last Remains is the conclusion to this 2+ year-50-ssue-$200+ investment to this point in Spencer's time with ASM. Nail it Spencer. C'mon...
    this is basically where I'm at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    then why do the deal in the first place
    I mean....he should not have done the deal. So.....yeah. That's a good question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    "Reversing OMD" is a phrase that compresses a lot of complex stuff. In the broadest sense it includes basically two things.
    1) Remembering the deal and remembering the marriage, and remembering that the continuity Peter knows Post-BND is a new reality imposed on the original, i.e. that OMIT didn't actually happen.
    2) Having Peter and Mary Jane get married again.

    The thing about OMD that irritated fans and infuriated people is both of these things. Undoing the marriage is Injury. Retconning 20 years of stories and trying to pretend that the Peter and Mary Jane in those stories weren't married and that somehow that the stories could have worked even if they weren't married...that's Insult on top of Injury. So if Spencer has Peter remember the marriage and the deal and explores the fallout of that, that itself has material to explore for multiple issues and story-arcs. And remembering the marriage and the deal does in fact undo OMD at least in part. As for having Peter and MJ get married again, well obviously that will depend on the aftermath of that and where it takes the story going forward. Would people be satisfied with Peter merely remembering, would the continuity and characters work with the character knowing that the deal happened? That's what it works. I think Spencer is trying to work with what he has to address this stuff as best as he can.

    Now of course, "Reversing OMD" also has another definition, i.e. undoing every story after OMD and making all the stuff in-between disappear and relegated out of continuity. For a lot of people "reversing OMD" extends to this, and this is a hardline position. I personally don't endorse it because I think it's extreme and unnecessary and I don't think you can complain about a retcon that broke 20 years of continuity with another retcon that breaks 13 years of stories. My personal feeling is that simply have the current Peter and MJ get married and have them remember the deal, that way every story upto OMD and every story between OMD and its undoing gets to be open and present for writers going forward.



    That's the thing readers felt that the epilogue was in poor taste and just not reflective of how readers felt about that story.

    This is a good assessment and I want to give you kudos. Honestly I'm also surprised that we're going to have Peter actually address the whole "deal with the Devil" aspect of the story. I did not think we would get that when they dealt with OMD.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Alright, if I can't tell you what this issue is or isn't, then you can't do the same to me. Quid pro quo, right? Or rather, is it that instead of seeing this issue's faults, you ignore them and blaze right on to the "good stuff"?

    And what is actually crazy about this story? More supernatural elements in Spider-Man that fans didn't like before? Bringing characters back from the dead when they didn't need to be? Retconning retcons because retcons gotta retcon?
    When does it end? When does this become more about moving the story forward rather than just referencing or winking to the past again and again? I mean, come on: Spencer's run has done entirely that - whether it's restoring past relationships, killing off Kraven and explaining stuff for Mysterio and Sin-Eater, or even now with Kindred/Harry...it's just a retconning run which is not bad, but doesn't make for the most exciting superhero book either.
    I think this is a fair criticism of Spencer's run. It's been a run that fixes everything in the past decade (or two) that's gone wrong with the character. I'd also agree that it's not that exciting. But...it's also kind of enough for me right now? Like after seeing the character be abused for so long and juust so many stupid things happen it's just satisfying to see so many things set right...and in a quiet non-bombastic way, too. It's not some hyped thing, it's just "yeah we're not doing that anymore". Now, I do think he's coasting on that fact. This is not a spectacular book right now. It's kinda dull. But I'd take dull over it breaking crap all the time.

    Giving Spencer the benefit of the doubt is one thing; making him seem like the best Spider-Man writer since JMS is another. Like I mentioned, I've been guilty of that, and I've since rescinded that claim.
    I mean, I'm not sure that's that scandalous of a claim. ASM has had 4 writers since JMS. Slott, Guggenheim, Wells, and Gale. He's definitely better than Slott. Gale was sadly a dissappointment. Guggenheim and Wells were both good but they didn't write much. Zdarsky I know some people like but he also canonized that dumb sister thing. Like Spencer probably is the best writer since JMS because the competition is so weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    But haven't we had enough polarization? Why does every freakin' Spider-Man story involve some type of polarization now? Like with the PS4 game: that story was incredible, and celebrated the legacy of Spider-Man without polarizing people. Sure, some had issues with a few minor things, but overall, widely regarded as the best Spider-Man adaptation since Spectacular. Did it have to polarize? No, so why do the comics get a pass?

    I'm so sick and tired of superhero comics going to controversy or shock value first before good storytelling.
    The trouble with "haven't we had enough polarization" is that it's usually in the aftermath of some awful change that people are trying to revert. But people aren't willing to accept the new status quo as "the" status quo, which is why it was polarizing in the first place and why it will never not be polarizing until the past shift is undone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    Yes narration stopped in Marvel comics in the early 2000s and I think he was behind it from what I've read around the internet. Thought bubbles went away too. Now if we get thoughts they are in the boxes where narration used to be.
    Boy was that a stupid decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Totally agree. Spencer is probably well aware how unpopular that OMD/BND transition was (Slott was as well... the difference is Spencer actually cares and is taking steps to address it). I don't think it's "trolling." I think all this OMD/BND stuff is coming to a head soon. Whether that means it's undone, I don't know. Maybe it'll be technically undone, but so much time has passed Peter and MJ won't get remarried.
    I want to believe this but then he should also know how unpopular that abomination from 2004 is but made clear reference to it just a couple issues ago so I remain nervous.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Wouldn't say Kindred is exactly this case, 'cause even back in ASM#1 he was heavily implying that he's someone Peter knows, and over time this only became more obvious.
    Yes the whole point of Kindred was that he was someone who had a connection to Peter. Exactly who that was was in the air, but he was definitely someone we already knew. Like Deb Whitman.

  7. #247
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    At this point I feel like "reads better in a trade" is more of a criticism, rather than a feature, of this run.

  8. #248
    Incredible Member RD155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    At this point I feel like "reads better in a trade" is more of a criticism, rather than a feature, of this run.
    “Reads better in trade” is never a compliment as far as I’m concerned. It’s definitely a weakness of Spencer and a criticism.

  9. #249
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    At this point I feel like "reads better in a trade" is more of a criticism, rather than a feature, of this run.
    "reads better in trade" has always been a criticism.

    Spencer's Last Remains and Sins Rising do feel that more than say HUNTED, where individual (.HU) issues like the one with The Gibbon worked pretty well standalone.

    But even then Sins' Rising last issue ASM#50 was a great blast, and works as both a standalone and a finale.

    Maybe that will apply to the end of Last Remains too.

  10. #250
    Incredible Member RD155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    "reads better in trade" has always been a criticism.

    Spencer's Last Remains and Sins Rising do feel that more than say HUNTED, where individual (.HU) issues like the one with The Gibbon worked pretty well standalone.

    But even then Sins' Rising last issue ASM#50 was a great blast, and works as both a standalone and a finale.

    Maybe that will apply to the end of Last Remains too.
    It’s weird because I feel that an amazing conclusion could save Last Remains for me. However what I “want” to happen is most likely much different then what I believe “will” at this point. Still have my fingers crossed but Spencer seems to have this story crawling through a puddle of mediocrity at the moment and the agonizingly slow pacing is leading me to feel that a disappointment is sadly right around the corner.

  11. #251
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    It’s weird because I feel that an amazing conclusion could save Last Remains for me. However what I “want” to happen is most likely much different then what I believe “will” at this point. Still have my fingers crossed but Spencer seems to have this story crawling through a puddle of mediocrity at the moment and the agonizingly slow pacing is leading me to feel that a disappointment is sadly right around the corner.
    I don't judge a writer for not doing the story I wanted him to do. I go by the story that they actually tell and base it on that.

    If people want the entire Kindred story to be done and over with at the end of Last Remains then I think that's not gonna happen. This is basically the Act-Break, this is the middle part of the story. There will be some resolution, some give and take...or some take and give. And there will be a fallout and so on.

  12. #252
    Mighty Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    At this point I feel like "reads better in a trade" is more of a criticism, rather than a feature, of this run.
    is "reads better in a trade" the equivalent of reading an entire volume of a manga? And if so whats more important for comics run? the week to week or the whole volume?
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

  13. #253
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    is "reads better in a trade" the equivalent of reading an entire volume of a manga? And if so whats more important for comics run? the week to week or the whole volume?
    People will probably be debating this to the end of time .

  14. #254
    Mighty Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    People will probably be debating this to the end of time .
    I thought so. I see the same discussion regarding One Piece arcs as well. Honestly its subjective so why should it matter.
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

  15. #255
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    I thought so. I see the same discussion regarding One Piece arcs as well. Honestly its subjective so why should it matter.
    One Piece is kind of a slog for me to get to, but I guess I just don't appreciate the details enough...

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