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  1. #61
    Fantastic Member tv horror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    then why do the deal in the first place
    There's more to it than wheat cakes or even MJ, it's the point that Peter would be responsible for the deaths of two people he loved all because he IS Spider-man and not Peter Parker.
    Hail Hydra!

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    So it's pretty clear they're not reversing OMD, but if they at least make Peter responsible for it, even this padding will be worth it.
    "Reversing OMD" is a phrase that compresses a lot of complex stuff. In the broadest sense it includes basically two things.
    1) Remembering the deal and remembering the marriage, and remembering that the continuity Peter knows Post-BND is a new reality imposed on the original, i.e. that OMIT didn't actually happen.
    2) Having Peter and Mary Jane get married again.

    The thing about OMD that irritated fans and infuriated people is both of these things. Undoing the marriage is Injury. Retconning 20 years of stories and trying to pretend that the Peter and Mary Jane in those stories weren't married and that somehow that the stories could have worked even if they weren't married...that's Insult on top of Injury. So if Spencer has Peter remember the marriage and the deal and explores the fallout of that, that itself has material to explore for multiple issues and story-arcs. And remembering the marriage and the deal does in fact undo OMD at least in part. As for having Peter and MJ get married again, well obviously that will depend on the aftermath of that and where it takes the story going forward. Would people be satisfied with Peter merely remembering, would the continuity and characters work with the character knowing that the deal happened? That's what it works. I think Spencer is trying to work with what he has to address this stuff as best as he can.

    Now of course, "Reversing OMD" also has another definition, i.e. undoing every story after OMD and making all the stuff in-between disappear and relegated out of continuity. For a lot of people "reversing OMD" extends to this, and this is a hardline position. I personally don't endorse it because I think it's extreme and unnecessary and I don't think you can complain about a retcon that broke 20 years of continuity with another retcon that breaks 13 years of stories. My personal feeling is that simply have the current Peter and MJ get married and have them remember the deal, that way every story upto OMD and every story between OMD and its undoing gets to be open and present for writers going forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    I'll give you that; it was pretty interesting to see the story play out pretty much the same but now it's a hell for Peter, not a haven.
    That's the thing readers felt that the epilogue was in poor taste and just not reflective of how readers felt about that story.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I find it funny how many people said that they didn't read Slott's run yet believe that they had the right to criticize it.

    His run until Superior was great, except for The Gauntlet/Grim Hunt.
    The Gauntlet and Grim hunt are much separate from Superior. The first 10 issues of Superior were great then it fell off. Slott's a polarizing writer. You either like him or you don't. He either popped your Spider-Man cherry or he didn't. For folks that read Spider-Man for decades before BND, the tone, feel, language, and type of story told was very, or completely different than what came before it. If you read JMD or JMS or Jenkins or really anyone in the 80s or 90s and compare their Spider-Man to Slott, I at least felt like I was reading 2 entirely different characters.

  4. #64
    BANNED WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    "Reversing OMD" is a phrase that compresses a lot of complex stuff. In the broadest sense it includes basically two things.
    1) Remembering the deal and remembering the marriage, and remembering that the continuity Peter knows Post-BND is a new reality imposed on the original, i.e. that OMIT didn't actually happen.
    2) Having Peter and Mary Jane get married again.

    The thing about OMD that irritated fans and infuriated people is both of these things. Undoing the marriage is Injury. Retconning 20 years of stories and trying to pretend that the Peter and Mary Jane in those stories weren't married and that somehow that the stories could have worked even if they weren't married...that's Insult on top of Injury. So if Spencer has Peter remember the marriage and the deal and explores the fallout of that, that itself has material to explore for multiple issues and story-arcs. And remembering the marriage and the deal does in fact undo OMD at least in part. As for having Peter and MJ get married again, well obviously that will depend on the aftermath of that and where it takes the story going forward. Would people be satisfied with Peter merely remembering, would the continuity and characters work with the character knowing that the deal happened? That's what it works. I think Spencer is trying to work with what he has to address this stuff as best as he can.

    Now of course, "Reversing OMD" also has another definition, i.e. undoing every story after OMD and making all the stuff in-between disappear and relegated out of continuity. For a lot of people "reversing OMD" extends to this, and this is a hardline position. I personally don't endorse it because I think it's extreme and unnecessary and I don't think you can complain about a retcon that broke 20 years of continuity with another retcon that breaks 13 years of stories. My personal feeling is that simply have the current Peter and MJ get married and have them remember the deal, that way every story upto OMD and every story between OMD and its undoing gets to be open and present for writers going forward.



    That's the thing readers felt that the epilogue was in poor taste and just not reflective of how readers felt about that story.
    I think that's ultimately a good take. Don't just reverse it and retcon a retcon, but they remember, reconcile with that, and then remarry. That basically satisfies everyone, except for those who dislike the marriage.

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    I think that's ultimately a good take. Don't just reverse it and retcon a retcon, but they remember, reconcile with that, and then remarry. That basically satisfies everyone, except for those who dislike the marriage.
    The ones who dislike the marriage are a minority of comics readers, who are themselves a minority of the larger Spider-Man fandom.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanParkerMan View Post
    The Gauntlet and Grim hunt are much separate from Superior. The first 10 issues of Superior were great then it fell off. Slott's a polarizing writer. You either like him or you don't. He either popped your Spider-Man cherry or he didn't. For folks that read Spider-Man for decades before BND, the tone, feel, language, and type of story told was very, or completely different than what came before it. If you read JMD or JMS or Jenkins or really anyone in the 80s or 90s and compare their Spider-Man to Slott, I at least felt like I was reading 2 entirely different characters.
    The tone didn’t seem off. It was only JMS Spidey that was weird.

  7. #67
    Mighty Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's the thing readers felt that the epilogue was in poor taste and just not reflective of how readers felt about that story.
    This. The end of OMD was a celebration to Quesada and anyone who wanted the marriage undone, but to most readers and fans at that point it was hell. It was poor taste. Basically basking in the glory of the misery of fans that they just said 20 years of continuity is altered and all those stories we are retconning for the sake of a BRAND NEW DAY where Mary Jane doesn't matter and is kicked out of the book.
    - Every time Peter and MJ mentioned their marriage is now invalid and they were saying something else entirely.
    - You can't read those stories the way they were intended because we don't acknowledge that the marriage happened.
    - Writers don't care about Mary Jane anymore and won't bother writing her in the book

    Yay! How about no? Fans cared about Mary Jane and they cared about the marriage. So seeing Peter basically living through the dream like fans felt it is very meta and an awesome idea from Spencer. I really love his idea and I'm glad we got to see it done this way.

    Also wanted to add a cool touch Spencer did was with the elevator doorman, where Peter states "I remember this... I remember what DAY this was." in this version it's almost like the doorman is under demonic influence.

    OMD version:



    ASM #53 version:



    Very creepy and cool alteration. Like this whole scene was a hellish play that represented the end of Peter's marriage and the switching of things to the new continuity, so all the actors in it almost seem evil or our puppets under a spell.
    Last edited by Vortex85; 11-18-2020 at 11:33 AM.

  8. #68
    Incredible Member RD155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The ones who dislike the marriage are a minority of comics readers, who are themselves a minority of the larger Spider-Man fandom.
    This should written on Spider-Man T-shirts world wide.

    Very well said and concur...

  9. #69
    Mighty Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    So....
    What does Kindred want?

    Is he some sort of fail safe to keep Peter from being back with MJ?

    I feel like Last Remains will end in Peter making her ANOTHER deal, this time with Kindred that keeps him away from MJ (maybe Kindred will spare her if Peter accepts the deal?)
    I think it’s clear we arent getting EVERYTHING here in Last Remains like we originally thought we would. But the ramifications will probably project in to the next part of Spencer’s run

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    This. The end of OMD was a celebration to Quesada and anyone who wanted the marriage undone, but to most readers and fans at that point it was hell. It was poor taste. Basically basking in the glory of the misery of fans that they just said 20 years of continuity is altered and all those stories we are retconning for the sake of a BRAND NEW DAY where Mary Jane doesn't matter and is kicked out of the book.
    - Every time Peter and MJ mentioned their marriage is now invalid and they were saying something else entirely.
    - You can't read those stories the way they were intended because we don't acknowledge that the marriage happened.
    - Writers don't care about Mary Jane anymore and won't bother writing her in the book

    Yay! How about no? Fans cared about Mary Jane and they cared about the marriage. So seeing Peter basically living through the dream like fans felt it is very meta and an awesome idea from Spencer. I really love his idea and I'm glad we got to see it done this way.

    Also wanted to add a cool touch Spencer did was with the elevator doorman, where Peter states "I remember this... I remember what DAY this was." in this version it's almost like the doorman is under demonic influence.

    OMD version:



    ASM #53 version:



    Very creepy and cool alteration. Like this whole scene was a hellish play that represented the end of Peter's marriage and the switching of things to the new continuity, so all the actors in it almost seem evil or our puppets under a spell.
    Another fun little detail, while Harry is talking about coming back from Europe while pouring champagne in #545 and #53, instead of saying the parties suck in rehab, he says the parties suck in hell

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingkalamari View Post
    Another fun little detail, while Harry is talking about coming back from Europe while pouring champagne in #545 and #53, instead of saying the parties suck in rehab, he says the parties suck in hell
    I liked that for sure! And even more sinister: he was looking right at Peter.

  12. #72
    Mighty Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingkalamari View Post
    Another fun little detail, while Harry is talking about coming back from Europe while pouring champagne in #545 and #53, instead of saying the parties suck in rehab, he says the parties suck in hell
    Woah good find! I read that line about hell but I hadn't compared it to the original so I wasn't sure if it was brand new or altered. Nice to see its the same like but they replaced "rehab" with "hell". I have a feeling a lot of people will read this and fly through it and overlook the cool references and details. It would especially suck for someone who never read OMD or was not familiar with it. That would just make this issue seem like meaningless padding. But really seeing this scene played out page after page... that' s the best part."

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    Woah good find! I read that line about hell but I hadn't compared it to the original so I wasn't sure if it was brand new or altered. Nice to see its the same like but they replaced "rehab" with "hell". I have a feeling a lot of people will read this and fly through it and overlook the cool references and details. It would especially suck for someone who never read OMD or was not familiar with it. That would just make this issue seem like meaningless padding. But really seeing this scene played out page after page... that' s the best part."
    It would have been cooler if it was longer.

  14. #74
    Mighty Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    It would have been cooler if it was longer.
    I have the full issue now and they basically reproduced every page of the scene from the time Peter wakes to the end except for the toast to BND so I'm not sure what more he could have added?

  15. #75
    Spectacular Member federicodettofred's Avatar
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    There is something that makes little sense tho: Kindred's "mask". As someone pointed out, he literally takes it off like a plastic mask when he's always looked like a real demon. What's the point of this? Is this an overlook or the earlier drawings are just inaccurate? He's clearly a demonic figure (he gives powers and takes people back to life), so how is he a "normal" Harry now?

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