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  1. #16
    World's Greatest Hero blackspidey2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Life Story.

    The rest - good not best ever. SSM is famous or infamous, pick your poison. But not in the greatest ever category.
    Exactly. I can't really think of anything else that would be close to making a "best ever" list.
    "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going's tough - when there seems to be no chance - that's when it counts!" - Spider-Man

  2. #17
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    I have never heard anyone make a real case for Superior to be a great story. All I have ever heard is stuff about how daring Slott is, how it was controversial and divisive, but nothing concrete in terms of writing and form.

    It's basically a big dumb stupid event, hardly anything to write home about.

    KLH with padding.

    Telling a Spider-Man story where Spider-Man doesn't have a role whose fundamental engine is someone else can live Peter's life and manage it even better and whose grand claim is that the reason Peter is superior because he sabotages his life...well it's a fundamentally nihilistic perspective not worth entertaining.

    It's also a terrible Doctor Octopus story. Doctor Octopus is an ugly dude with mechanical arms who does crazy schemes. He has no business acumen, he has no social graces, he's a thug in a labcoat. There was nothing to suggest that Octopus could create a business empire where Peter can't, it runs on "He makes money...because he's EVIL" logic.


    Octopus stealing Peter's identity is something Chameleon would do, it's not a gimmick consistent with who Doctor Octopus is. The entire redemption stuff effecitvely put an Octopus shaped hole in the rogues gallery.

  3. #18
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    This is a good question.

    It's a bit complicated in that it's not just about the comics I like as an individual, but the ones that I think might be on "Best of" lists, alongside stuff I really like (Kraven's Last Hunt, The Master Planner Saga, Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut, The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man), stuff I sorta like (Back in Black, Ultimate Venom), and stuff I really don't care for (Maximum Carnage, Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21.)

    The cutoff is the 50th anniversary, so comics that came out after Amazing Spider-Man #692-694, the debut of Alpha, which is probably not a contender.

    Dying Wish/ Superior Spider-Man will probably make the list in some form, as a well-regarded hit mega-arc.

    Superior Foes of Spider-Man has a great tone, and is different enough from other Spider-Man comics that it might stand out in a crowded field (the proverbial orange competing against all the apples.)

    Amazing Spider-Man #801 is a beautifully drawn self-contained statement issue by Slott & Marcos Martin.

    Life Story is an interesting meta style project that gives an overview of the character.

    Edge of Spider-Verse #2 is probably still the best Spider-Gwen comic.

    I'm not the biggest fan of it, but Spider-Verse has popped up in some lists, did influence a major movie, and did solidify the multiverse as a major part of the Spider-Man comics.

    Some stuff is going to be based on things we don't know yet.

    If the next Spider-Man movie has a ten minute confrontation between Tom Holland's Peter Parker and JK Simmon's J Jonah Jameson, it can elevate the reputation of "My Dinner With Jonah." Maybe Nick Spencer has some incredible payoff to the Crime Master story that elevates that three-parter.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    Exactly. I can't really think of anything else that would be close to making a "best ever" list.
    Add me to the "list with no list". Unless we count Miles, in which case:

    - Venom War (Ultimate Comics Spider-Man (2011) #19-22) by Bendis and Pichelli
    - Spider-Man No More (Ultimate Comics Spider-Man (2011) #23-28) by Bendis and Márquez

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I have never heard anyone make a real case for Superior to be a great story. All I have ever heard is stuff about how daring Slott is, how it was controversial and divisive, but nothing concrete in terms of writing and form.

    It's basically a big dumb stupid event, hardly anything to write home about.

    KLH with padding.
    I honestly saw it as a love letter to Spider-man and in many ways, was Slott's closure on the issues with OMD/BND.

    OMD made Peter out to be the most unlikable Person in Marvel history. He was willing to make a deal with the devil to end his marriage so he doesn't live with the guilt. That's not what Spider-man is to me. And Superior felt like a redemption to that, stating it's not the powers or even the intelligence that makes Spider-man Spider-man. Anyone can be Spider-man, even Doc Ock, and he started fairly well, but he wasn't Peter. And it's Peter that makes Spider-man.

    I do agree, Superior is inferior to KLH. I think KLH is a much deeper story than Superior and gets to the point straight away. I'm in the camp however who believed Superior should have lasted longer. At least a little bit, maybe get to 40 issues.
    I think Superior is bigger in scope, but KLH is bigger in a personal connection. Neither are really Peter's story however.
    I will say, Superior does a better job at being that love letter.

    I will also say that Superior being one of the best stories since 2013 says a lot about this decade of Spider-man.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    I honestly saw it as a love letter to Spider-man and in many ways, was Slott's closure on the issues with OMD/BND.

    OMD made Peter out to be the most unlikable Person in Marvel history. He was willing to make a deal with the devil to end his marriage so he doesn't live with the guilt. That's not what Spider-man is to me. And Superior felt like a redemption to that, stating it's not the powers or even the intelligence that makes Spider-man Spider-man. Anyone can be Spider-man, even Doc Ock, and he started fairly well, but he wasn't Peter. And it's Peter that makes Spider-man.

    I do agree, Superior is inferior to KLH. I think KLH is a much deeper story than Superior and gets to the point straight away. I'm in the camp however who believed Superior should have lasted longer. At least a little bit, maybe get to 40 issues.
    I think Superior is bigger in scope, but KLH is bigger in a personal connection. Neither are really Peter's story however.
    I will say, Superior does a better job at being that love letter.

    I will also say that Superior being one of the best stories since 2013 says a lot about this decade of Spider-man.
    I would put Life Story and the Conway run on RYV as excellent Spider-Man stories. Superior was Slott saying Peter is inferior to Otto and he like MJ and Felicia are not needed.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    I honestly saw it as a love letter to Spider-man and in many ways, was Slott's closure on the issues with OMD/BND.
    I can sorta see that.

    OMD made Peter out to be the most unlikable Person in Marvel history. He was willing to make a deal with the devil to end his marriage so he doesn't live with the guilt. That's not what Spider-man is to me. And Superior felt like a redemption to that, stating it's not the powers or even the intelligence that makes Spider-man Spider-man.
    That's a slim message to add a 30 issue+ thing around.

    Anyone can be Spider-man, even Doc Ock, and he started fairly well, but he wasn't Peter. And it's Peter that makes Spider-man.
    That feels incoherent to me..."Anyone can be Spider-Man...it's Peter that makes Spider-Man". And again there's a big gap between the stated moral in the story and actual execution. I think Superior Spider-Man despite Slott's post-facto statements is largely about Ock being better than Peter, and that's the engine on which the entire thing ran on and spun its wheels on, until Marvel told Slott to bring Peter back in time for the second Garfield movie. It's entirely possible after all, even for writers working in total good faith, to execute something so against their stated message and core ideas, to be "of the devil's party and not know it".

    I think Superior is bigger in scope, but KLH is bigger in a personal connection. Neither are really Peter's story however.
    You are dead wrong. Kraven's Last Hunt is very much Peter's story. It's told from Kraven's perspective but it's about Peter. Kraven's entire perspective is that to him Spider-Man is the totemic being and not a real human being, and that if he defeats and consumes the totem, the way he hunts down any animal and skins or stuffs it, that makes him the superior. The whole point is that being Spider-Man isn't about being invulnerable and super-strong, it's about being human. That's why when Peter gets out of the grave in KLH, it's an issue long sequence with him in the white void, and ends with a stirring full-page splash of him popping out of that grave. It's one of the great defining images in Spider-Man history. Likewise, in KLH, Peter's missing in issues 2 and 3, but he's back in 4, 5, and 6. In other words, his absence is brief but lasts in impact and stakes. About a quarter of the second act, that's how much time Peter's gone from the story.

    Whereas when Peter returns in Superior, it's done in a throwaway and perfunctory moment, almost half-hearted. Superior shuffles him away for most of the story until the very end. It sucks. There's also the fact that the final issues had dialogue by Christos Gage, so Slott didn't even bother to full script the finale of his own story, including the part when the hero comes back, so that adds a dose of illegitimacy to the whole thing.

    I will say, Superior does a better job at being that love letter.
    It doesn't.

    I will also say that Superior being one of the best stories since 2013 says a lot about this decade of Spider-man.
    In terms of the fact that since OMD, most Spider-Man stories are about peripheral stuff and so on, you are probably right. The two biggest new characters (Miles, Spider-Gwen) all came from AU and not 616.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 11-19-2020 at 07:01 AM.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    I think Superior Spider-Man despite Slott's post-facto statements is largely about Ock being better than Peter
    I think that Slott was basically saying that Peter is the best Spider-Man but that Otto was the better Peter Parker, at least thats how it come across to me. That idea os obviously awfull, but Superior is not exactly great either.
    Last edited by TheCape; 11-19-2020 at 07:50 AM.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    I think that Slott was basically saying that Peter is the best Spider-Man but that Otto was the better Peter Parker, at least thats how it come across to me. It sucks of course, but is what it is.
    The entire Superior story feels like a parody, or travesty (in the original sense of the word) of Spider-Man. Peter gets hijacked and nobody knows and nobody cares.

    And I wouldn't have a problem with that if this was done as a kind of Marshal Law type spoof, it's just that this happened in the main default Spider-Man titles and does a surfeit of character assassinations on the entire supporting cast to support its dumb premise. Doctor Octopus is also not spared.

    Fundamentally, Superior is a terrible Doctor Octopus story on top of everything. The guy here is absolutely not the Doctor Octopus of Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, John Romita Sr., Bill Mantlo, Al Milgrom, David Michelinie, Erik Larsen, Paul Jenkins, and JMS.

  10. #25
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    SSM is entertaining but does not rise to the level of greatness. It says practically nothing about Peter or Spider-Man, and rather undermines many of the elements that make his characters special, while being kind of creepy at the same time. It also undermines who Doc Ock is at his heart - a bitter scientist who, while being a genius, still has a huge need to compensate for his own insecurities.

    I could see Ock taking over Peter's brain to get even with him, but can't see him sticking with it for so long. He'd very quickly find that it didn't satisfy him or take away his own insecurities and he'd go back to being him again. Its like a two-three issue storyline, tops. The stuff with MJ was also just way out of character for Ock and don't get me started about all his other shenanigans with business and science. Ock would also want everyone to know it was him and he'd blow his big secret right away!

    As to the story saying that Peter is the best Spider-Man - how? The only person in the entire story who misses Peter and is glad to have him back when he returns is Norman Osborn. What a crock!

    The only good thing to come out of SSM is Anna Maria, as a potential new love interest for Ock. But like every new character since OMD, she's gone and irrelevant.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    The only good thing to come out of SSM is Anna Maria, as a potential new love interest for Ock. But like every new character since OMD, she's gone and irrelevant.
    So? We hated every new character since OMD. That's why we wanted them gone in the first place.

  12. #27
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Not all of them, I've liked quite a few. But I've learned to not get attached to any of them, even if I like 'em.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    SSM and Spider-Man: Life Story are probably going to be the two storylines considered "evergreen" from the past decade. Maybe Tom Taylor's Friendly Neighborhood run too.

    I have a lot of issues with Superior but I also accept that I'm, and a lot of us here complaining about it frankly, are in the minority in the grand scheme of things.
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    I have a lot of issues with Superior but I also accept that I'm, and a lot of us here complaining about it frankly, are in the minority in the grand scheme of things.
    I am not so sure about that.

    The most influential comics of the last decade was Bendis' run on Miles Morales, stories like SPIDER-MEN (I and II). That's what had the biggest impact, at least as of this moment. Superior Spider-Man is a notable event story from the 2010s but that also applies to The Clone Saga as well. Time will tell how people feel about it later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    As to the story saying that Peter is the best Spider-Man - how? The only person in the entire story who misses Peter and is glad to have him back when he returns is Norman Osborn. What a crock!
    Great point.

  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    As to the story saying that Peter is the best Spider-Man - how? The only person in the entire story who misses Peter and is glad to have him back when he returns is Norman Osborn. What a crock!
    The story ends with Otto being a lil' bitch who can't handle the pressure once things get too tough, and he essentially rage quits while Peter solves Otto's whole mess easily and fast.

    It sucks that all Slott did with that was say "Peter is a better Spider-Man" and not "Peter is a better person", but whatever.

    The only good thing to come out of SSM is Anna Maria, as a potential new love interest for Ock. But like every new character since OMD, she's gone and irrelevant.
    The way her romance with Otto started is disgusting though lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    So? We hated every new character since OMD. That's why we wanted them gone in the first place.
    She was liked though, so it's kinda too bad she's irrelevant now, but maybe she'll return.

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