All New X-Factor Appreciation

[saul_on_the_road_to_damascus]

My only problem with quicksilver and the walkman was the earphones seemed outa place in the late seventies early 80s. They seemed like the ones that wrap around your ears but I didn't get a good look. I like the idea that that was lorna instead of wanda maybe wanda is in a psych ward.

[salarta]

My only problem with quicksilver and the walkman was the earphones seemed outa place in the late seventies early 80s. They seemed like the ones that wrap around your ears but I didn't get a good look. I like the idea that that was lorna instead of wanda maybe wanda is in a psych ward.

I'd like both Lorna and Wanda in the next film. I don't feel any need to campaign for Wanda because she's already in the coming Avengers film, and she doesn't have bad past depictions that get in the way of her getting used.

Avengers vs X-Men is a good example of what Lorna has to put up with and the hurdles she has to jump that most other characters don't just to be considered for anything. When people brought up that Lorna should be in AvX, Brevoort originally said they couldn't put everyone in the event, only the A-listers and important B-listers, essentially saying Lorna isn't relevant enough in his eyes despite her stake in the event due to being part of the Magnus family. She did ultimately get added to AvX, but only as a couple nameless cameos that involved Lorna and her family completely ignoring each other. Most egregious within AvX was when Magneto, who had just gone into space specifically to help bring her (noting she was his daughter) back to Earth a month prior, ignored Emma mind-controlling Lorna into submission. No More Humans, part of the X-books without Brevoort's involvement (at least directly), recently continued that treatment by excluding Lorna from the whole thing while Wanda and Pietro got presented with Magneto.

Things like that don't happen to Wanda or Pietro, they only happen to Lorna, because she's a victim of negative bias held by certain people within the company. That's why I might be touchy about certain things or speak more strongly about her than some would about their favorite characters. She's at greater risk than most characters out there, even greater than most D-listers and lower, because those characters don't have to contend with certain people that actively try to prevent their use and development. If Lorna was granted the same opportunities that all other characters made around the time she was made (1968) have been getting for decades, I'd be a lot more relaxed about what happens with her.

Marvel has definitely made some great strides in a very short time for her, I don't want to disregard that one bit. Peter David provided an excellent origin story for Lorna (X-Factor #243), she's getting to lead a team for the first time with ANXF and interact with Pietro, and she's recently been included in a few games. They're the reason why I read the comics, go to Marvel films and later buy some of them on Blu-Ray, buy games that I'd otherwise never buy, etc. I can also at least credit Brevoort for letting Pietro join ANXF and interact with Lorna, because I know he could've gotten in the way of that if he wanted. But there's still work to be done, and we never know when Marvel's going to slip backward and what they'll do to justify character regression if they go through with it.

I didn't mean to write an essay when I started writing this post, sorry if the length of my post or where it went bothers anyone, it just happened to come out.

[Peter David]

Ah but they gave him A horribly fake wig that's far too long, Goggles, Walkman (To a guy who thinks really fast and therefore can't really listen to music), dressed him like Dazzler and put him in for 2 scenes.

I'd argue that's just as bad

You are completely wrong. You and anyone else rejecting the film Quicksilver based on photographs or whatever. The actor did a terrific job, his superspeed was wonderfully executed, and there's a scene in the Pentagon that is shot from his POV that is one of the high points of the film.

It's terrific. And I say that as someone who has something of a vested interest in Quicksilver.

PAD

[Peter David]

CBR is a comic book resource. And as such, they should be able to review books, but the problem is, those given the job are biased. It can't be biased. Maybe they should have three people do it and post the best one. I know its feels like busy work. But the problem with the Gambit solo and ANXF is closed minded views and going into the review with a per-disposed disposition. Every book and issue should be treated as new. IMO.

Not to mention that they were pretty much the ONLY reviewers to pan it. That didn't help their cause any.

PAD

[remydat]

I'd like both Lorna and Wanda in the next film. I don't feel any need to campaign for Wanda because she's already in the coming Avengers film, and she doesn't have bad past depictions that get in the way of her getting used.

Avengers vs X-Men is a good example of what Lorna has to put up with and the hurdles she has to jump that most other characters don't just to be considered for anything. When people brought up that Lorna should be in AvX, Brevoort originally said they couldn't put everyone in the event, only the A-listers and important B-listers, essentially saying Lorna isn't relevant enough in his eyes despite her stake in the event due to being part of the Magnus family. She did ultimately get added to AvX, but only as a couple nameless cameos that involved Lorna and her family completely ignoring each other. Most egregious within AvX was when Magneto, who had just gone into space specifically to help bring her (noting she was his daughter) back to Earth a month prior, ignored Emma mind-controlling Lorna into submission. No More Humans, part of the X-books without Brevoort's involvement (at least directly), recently continued that treatment by excluding Lorna from the whole thing while Wanda and Pietro got presented with Magneto.

Things like that don't happen to Wanda or Pietro, they only happen to Lorna, because she's a victim of negative bias held by certain people within the company. That's why I might be touchy about certain things or speak more strongly about her than some would about their favorite characters. She's at greater risk than most characters out there, even greater than most D-listers and lower, because those characters don't have to contend with certain people that actively try to prevent their use and development. If Lorna was granted the same opportunities that all other characters made around the time she was made (1968) have been getting for decades, I'd be a lot more relaxed about what happens with her.

Marvel has definitely made some great strides in a very short time for her, I don't want to disregard that one bit. Peter David provided an excellent origin story for Lorna (X-Factor #243), she's getting to lead a team for the first time with ANXF and interact with Pietro, and she's recently been included in a few games. They're the reason why I read the comics, go to Marvel films and later buy some of them on Blu-Ray, buy games that I'd otherwise never buy, etc. I can also at least credit Brevoort for letting Pietro join ANXF and interact with Lorna, because I know he could've gotten in the way of that if he wanted. But there's still work to be done, and we never know when Marvel's going to slip backward and what they'll do to justify character regression if they go through with it.

I didn't mean to write an essay when I started writing this post, sorry if the length of my post or where it went bothers anyone, it just happened to come out.

Well the problem with Lorna relative to Quicksilver and Wanda is the fact her powers are like Magneto's IMO. Even stuff like Genosha are shared to a large extent with Magneto. So there is likely always going to be a segment of the population (fans and writers) who simply find that redundant.

I am certainly liking what I am seeing of Lorna right now but I had very little interest in her before as a character for that reason and that reason alone. So I am not sure it is an active campaign against her so much as it's perhaps indifference to the character. For a character that has been around since 1968, she seems woefully underdeveloped (could be wrong as again never paid much attention to her) and I suspect if that is true, it's because it's perhaps harder for some people to find a compelling reason to dust her off and use her. She needs to be given something that allows her to step outside Magneto's shadow IMO.

[remydat]

You are completely wrong. You and anyone else rejecting the film Quicksilver based on photographs or whatever. The actor did a terrific job, his superspeed was wonderfully executed, and there's a scene in the Pentagon that is shot from his POV that is one of the high points of the film.

It's terrific. And I say that as someone who has something of a vested interest in Quicksilver.

PAD

Yeah as someone that has never been a Quicksilver fan and thought his outfit and appearance was terrible when the trailers were released, his performance was well done to the point I was wondering why they didn't take him on the rest of the mission as he would have made a few things a lot easier. Of course I suppose that would have lessened the drama.

[just another user]

You are completely wrong. You and anyone else rejecting the film Quicksilver based on photographs or whatever. The actor did a terrific job, his superspeed was wonderfully executed, and there's a scene in the Pentagon that is shot from his POV that is one of the high points of the film.

It's terrific. And I say that as someone who has something of a vested interest in Quicksilver.

PAD

Coming from the definitive Quicksilver writer, hopefully that puts any fans mind at rest. He is perfect in DOFP.

[FuzzyBlueElf]

You are completely wrong. You and anyone else rejecting the film Quicksilver based on photographs or whatever. The actor did a terrific job, his superspeed was wonderfully executed, and there's a scene in the Pentagon that is shot from his POV that is one of the high points of the film.

It's terrific. And I say that as someone who has something of a vested interest in Quicksilver.

PAD

Sorry, the film version just doesn't interest me at all even if I do like Evan Peters being cast for him.

(Although it's probably infinitely better than Ultimate Quicksilver)

[Neko]

Not to mention that they were pretty much the ONLY reviewers to pan it. That didn't help their cause any.

PAD

True. Which should have given the reviewers here a clue that maybe they were not giving the book a fair review. Or that they were being a tad too biased and harsh. Certainly saying such things with the first issue was just poor judgement.

In regards to QS in the new film. Haven't seen it yet, looking forward to seeing it.

Thanks for dropping by Mr. David.

Is the blond Angela? And will Gambit know she is married or does he find out later. I bet your answer will be read #9 and find out. LOL

[jmc247]

Sorry, the film version just doesn't interest me at all even if I do like Evan Peters being cast for him.

(Although it's probably infinitely better than Ultimate Quicksilver)

I personally suspect the Avengers film will have a hard time topping the DoFP version of Quicksilver.

For a character that has been around since 1968, she seems woefully underdeveloped (could be wrong as again never paid much attention to her) and I suspect if that is true, it's because it's perhaps harder for some people to find a compelling reason to dust her off and use her. She needs to be given something that allows her to step outside Magneto's shadow IMO.

She is woefully underdeveloped because she had her parentage retconned of existence in 1969 so she had no roots in the Marvel universe for a very long time other then the men fighting over her lady parts then X-Men was canceled and Storm replaced her position on the X-Men when things got going again. She spent two decades either in limbo, a mind controlled villain being jobbed to Storm and other characters, then the decision was made to change her code name and give her all new powers. By the time PAD picked her up in 1991 there was nothing left of the character other then her off and on relationship to Havok.

The problem Salarta was talking about has nothing to do with her being in Magneto's shadow any more then X-23 or She-Hulk suffers from being in Wolverine or Hulk's shadow. The problem the poster was talking about and its a real one is that they just see Lorna out of the prism of the 70s and 80s when all she was at the time was either mind controlled, being tortured, or Havok's uber weak-willed and cowardly girlfriend.





Its been hard to shake that mental image of Lorna for fans of that era. Even in the 90s up to early 2000s Lorna real struggle was individuating from her boyfriend not her father. Thus, when she fought with him she wasn't fighting because he could ruin something she believed in... it was about her fighting for what her boyfriend believed in.



After that towards the mid 2000s was the first time she started individuating in thought from that of her boyfriend on mutant issues or any issues really. Sure, she was a bit extreme and thinking more along the lines of an extreme version of her father in that period, but she just went though an anti mutant genocide. I think the comics hit the right spot with the character around 2004/2005 when she was effectively between her father's more extreme ideas and Xavier's philosophy. Then she was thrust into space for over a half decade because Havok wanted her to come and mutant issues have been for the most part irrelevant to her until really this past two issues of ANXF.

I would say the Lorna of issue #8 was espousing the kind of view on mutants and using force that happens to be the best spot for the character not her as a parrot for Havok which she has historically been. We will see what happens in issue #12, but it should be interesting nonetheless.

[Spasticat]

Take it from a non-Quicksilver fan, guys and gals: PAD got me interested in him, the movie has me fascinated by him. DOFP actually reminded me very much of his portrayal in All New X-factor. Seriously, the whole scene between him and Magneto in the elevator was fantastic and very very in character for both of them.

[salarta]

Sorry, the film version just doesn't interest me at all even if I do like Evan Peters being cast for him.

(Although it's probably infinitely better than Ultimate Quicksilver)

I might be missing something about your views in this reply to you, so sorry if I do.

Appearances are important, but I think there's some leeway between how critical that appearance is to the character's identity, and how the character is treated. The most important thing is that whatever changes get made, the character should be recognizable as the character they are. I don't mind ANXF's costume change for Lorna much because Marvel's putting at least a little effort to make it clear this is Lorna and not some other random green-haired woman like Agent Brand (Pietro being on the book helps a lot with this), and there's a good reason for Lorna wearing a different costume that both fits ANXF's intent and explains why Lorna wouldn't be wearing her iconic costume. I've said before that I wouldn't mind Lorna wearing a different costume so long as it's made clear that it's Lorna, and that's because even though Lorna's iconic costume is a major part of her visual identity (especially her headpiece), I can set my concern for it aside in the right circumstances because she doesn't have a theme she's required to fit. As such, my concern in her case is more about recognition than identity.

By contrast, Harley Quinn is a character where the costume is absolutely crucial. No matter what rendition they try, Harley Quinn should have enough of her harlequin/jester theme in her costume for people to recognize it as a harlequin/jester theme. If she doesn't have that theme, then she shouldn't have a codename that reflects the theme. You wouldn't continue to refer to Batman as Batman if he had a reboot where he dressed like a chicken, after all. The current "Harley Quinn" isn't a harlequin/jester theme, she's a skanky clown or juggalo theme. As such, it's completely inappropriate.

All that to say, appearance is a tricky subject that changes on a case-by-case basis. I don't mean to tell you what you should think as a Quicksilver fan if that's the way it sounds, but I can say that if Lorna was in the same boat, I'd go see the movie.

True. Which should have given the reviewers here a clue that maybe they were not giving the book a fair review. Or that they were being a tad too biased and harsh. Certainly saying such things with the first issue was just poor judgement.

Again, I don't think the reviewers on CBR even cared about giving a fair review in the first place.

[Neko]

Ah Salarta -only you and Remydat make me open up a word doc to write a reply before posting. That way I don't lose my train of thought. I'm easily distracted. LOL

Too late, I've already chained you to a computer. There is no life, there is only the ANXF thread. :P

LOL – need some slack here buddy!

All reviews are inherently biased, the trick is that the reviewer needs to be willing to admit they have bias and then make an attempt to keep that bias in check. The reviews from CBR were bias run amok. No attempt to account for personal leanings, no attempt to try to understand where a book is coming from, just pure self-serving bias.

I disagree with you that every book and issue should be treated as new. I'll agree that it should be judged based on its own merits and not how well it comes off like something a completely different writer would write, but what's been said and done before is very important. If past work says Wolverine is a tough guy and fierce fighter, you wouldn't want to give an issue a pass for having him terrified of fighting out of nowhere. It might amuse some people that don't like Wolverine or don't care about his character history all that much, but it would be insulting to his history and fans of him.

Perhaps new isn't the right word. Sure, if the issue is a second part or what not, what has gone on prior should be part of the review. However, that has not happened in reviews that take place here. I can tell you on more than one occasion with the Gambit solo, the reviewers acted like they didn't know they had read a book about a guy who is a thief. And I'm not saying give a pass when it comes to history of the characters. Your Wolverine example is an extreme case.

Allot of effort goes into the marketing part of these books. Concepts of what the books will be like and how the writer and artist plan on doing with these concepts and how these things will impact characters or how the characters will be used for the storyline. There should be no surprise about what you are getting. The surprise should be in the how its presented and I mean that in a good way.

When a reviewer comes in and says they didn't know what they were getting into with a book based on all the information in articles here on CBR – then I have a hard time with those people reviewing the book. I have to question how could they not know the subject material in general.

I know I'm using the Gambit's solo as my main example, there were 13 articles about the Gambit solo prior to issue 1 being released. Three of which were on CBR. The first review – the reviewer acted like they didn't realize this book was about a thief and said it was ho-hum and nothing new, blah, blah, blah. While I know of some who tried to defend the review, my main point was – Gambit being a thief shouldn't have been a big deal to the review because in the 13 articles prior – it was pretty much stated that Gambit would be a thief. The review should have been about the story presented and with as little bias as possible.

[Neko]

Again, I don't think the reviewers on CBR even cared about giving a fair review in the first place.

True. I also think that some take critical thinking to far, which can translate into a more negative thing. I'm not saying all reviews should be wonderful and there is room to look at things and say, I didn't think that worked because and give a reason. A review like that makes you think and sometimes re-read to see the idea in question and whether or not it was solid or not.

[Spasticat]

True. I also think that some take critical thinking to far, which can translate into a more negative thing.

*coughcoughOldANXFthreadcoughcough*


Look y'all, Quicksilver's physical, "iconic" portrayal in the film left a lot to be desired. Just like Gambit's did in Wolverine: Origins. But enough of both characters' actual personalities shone through to make viewing an enjoyable experience, as long as the viewer is capable of taking the big screen changes with a grain of salt. Be grateful your favorite character isn't Storm or Rogue!!!