SPOILERS: Fantastic Four #26

[jwatson]

Just a tiny correction: Hickman didn't write a sinister secret about a fake mutant, that was a plotline estabilished by Tom Taylor way back in Hunt for Wolverine that was never picked up again

Thank you. Just checked my hardcover and you are correct.

[Thundershot]

There's a difference between seducing someone into bed and posing as their lover to commit rape by deception. There is zero indication that Black Widow ever did the former.

Lyja never posed as Johnny’s lover. She posed as Alicia, who was not Johnny’s lover. She then had him fall in love with her (as well as falling in love herself). Her job was to infiltrate the FF by posing as Alicia. When her and Johnny got together, it was consensual. The Alicia Johnny fell for was always Lyja. It’s no worse than Black Widow has likely done. Or what if you’re in a witness protection program and date and marry? You’re not supposed to tell them either.

Now if the Skrulls original plan of putting Lyja with Ben had worked, then yes... but not Johnny.

[FFJamie94]

Just a tiny correction: Hickman didn't write a sinister secret about a fake mutant, that was a plotline estabilished by Tom Taylor way back in Hunt for Wolverine that was never picked up again

I'm really hoping this plot point gets picked up somewhere.
It seems a shame to let something like that go to waste.

[Agent Z]

With Franklin depowered, this would be a perfect opportunity for Mephisto to exact revenge on him, if he is currently in a position to do so.

What did Franklin do to Mephisto?

[Crimz]

Lyja never posed as Johnny’s lover. She posed as Alicia, who was not Johnny’s lover. She then had him fall in love with her (as well as falling in love herself). Her job was to infiltrate the FF by posing as Alicia. When her and Johnny got together, it was consensual. The Alicia Johnny fell for was always Lyja. It’s no worse than Black Widow has likely done. Or what if you’re in a witness protection program and date and marry? You’re not supposed to tell them either.

Now if the Skrulls original plan of putting Lyja with Ben had worked, then yes... but not Johnny.

That's... not how consent works...

[Hypestyle]

In the issue, as defined by Professor X appearing suddenly, like the Watcher, and making a pronouncement. It seemed so irrational, but perhaps it was the only time Xavier had the opportunity to inspect Franklins DNA without Franky masking he’s not a mutant?

So is there another category now for Powered people whose abilities are natural but did not have something "done to them" later in life (adolescence, adulthood, etc., such as Bruce Banner, Peter Parker, Matt Murdock)?

For the longest time, it was implicitly accepted that all children of powered people who had powers were "mutants" in some way (even if you were the sort to nitpick and insist that "true mutants" can only have abilities that neither parent has, it was still an accepted premise. Thus Daken is a mutant via his father Wolverine, etc.).

The abruptness of "he's not a mutant, end of story, see ya" just comes across as incredibly arbitrary, even by comic-book-logic standards.

[Tmacaoni]

That's... not how consent works...

Is comic consent the same as real world consent? I find the line kind of blurry as certain powers kind of have a "rapey" stigma to them. Phermones, Telepathy, Shape changers and Pleasure stimulators all have a degree of questionable consent to them. So honestly I feel that you cannot apply real world consent to comic world consent as ALL characters with those power sets would be rapists.

[Marvell2100]

What did Franklin do to Mephisto?

FF #276-#277. Briefly, Mephisto is torturing Reed and Sue in his domain. Franklin was unconscious and Mephisto gets ready to attack him. Franklin uses his powers to basically wipe Meph from this dimension.

[Crimz]

Is comic consent the same as real world consent? I find the line kind of blurry as certain powers kind of have a "rapey" stigma to them. Phermones, Telepathy, Shape changers and Pleasure stimulators all have a degree of questionable consent to them. So honestly I feel that you cannot apply real world consent to comic world consent as ALL characters with those power sets would be rapists.

It would be one thing if comics never tackled it and ignored it completely, but the exact same thing happened to Namor with Llyra and there was no question as to whether it was sexual assault. I don't need to compare it with the real world because the comic world has said the same thing. Even if the Namor thing never happened it would still be rape/sexual assault.

She also pretended to be someone Johnny knew for years, she didn't pretend to be a some stranger (meaning she only hid her physical features). She pretended to be Alica, even her personality was lie as he's pick up that it wasn't the person he knew. This isn't the same as spies going undercover, it's even more insidious than that.

[Tmacaoni]

It would be one thing if comics never tackled it and ignored it completely, but the exact same thing happened to Namor with Llyra and there was no question as to whether it was sexual assault. I don't need to compare it with the real world because the comic world has said the same thing. Even if the Namor thing never happened it would still be rape/sexual assault.

She also pretended to be someone Johnny knew for years, she didn't pretend to be a some stranger (meaning she only hid her physical features). She pretended to be Alica, even her personality was lie as he's pick up that it wasn't the person he knew. This isn't the same as spies going undercover, it's even more insidious than that.

I really doubt the writers are seeing it that way though. Lyja became a hero and FF ally as well. If in fact the writer was thinking about that it wouldn't have happened. Which is why consent in the context of those types of stories makes no sense.

[CaptCleghorn]

Is comic consent the same as real world consent? I find the line kind of blurry as certain powers kind of have a "rapey" stigma to them. Phermones, Telepathy, Shape changers and Pleasure stimulators all have a degree of questionable consent to them. So honestly I feel that you cannot apply real world consent to comic world consent as ALL characters with those power sets would be rapists.

Shape-shifting isn't a real world possibility, but using someone's else's identity in order to have sex is a rreal world situation, as Jerry Springer as many cases sound. Acting as one's own twin is a way this has been done. Is it common? No, but there are real world analogies to this situation.

As for powers inducing sexual acceptance, if not actual desire, people usually men, have been getting other people, usually women drunk for sex. This has been going on for centuries. As for having the power set, using that power to turn a no to a yes is the line.

[Crimz]

I really doubt the writers are seeing it that way though. Lyja became a hero and FF ally as well. If in fact the writer was thinking about that it wouldn't have happened. Which is why consent in the context of those types of stories makes no sense.

Just because a writer likes to ignore it or never realized, does not mean that it isn't sexual assault. Ignoring a situation does not mean it never happened. This type of thing especially happens with male characters because of society's view on the sexual assault of men and not taking it seriously. Johnny did not consent to having sex with Lyja therefore it was sexual assault/rape. It doesn't matter whether the writer wanted to make her a hero, that's what happened. He unintentionally wrote a story where Johnny was sexually assaulted and his ignorance of it does not change that fact.

[Agent Z]

Just because a writer likes to ignore it or never realized, does not mean that it isn't sexual assault.

A good example would be Avengers #200 where none of the people involved in the comic's story realized they'd written a rape until other people pointed it out for them.

[CaptCleghorn]

Just because a writer likes to ignore it or never realized, does not mean that it isn't sexual assault. Ignoring a situation does not mean it never happened. This type of thing especially happens with male characters because of society's view on the sexual assault of men and not taking it seriously. Johnny did not consent to having sex with Lyja therefore it was sexual assault/rape. It doesn't matter whether the writer wanted to make her a hero, that's what happened. He unintentionally wrote a story where Johnny was sexually assaulted and his ignorance of it does not change that fact.

It's semantics at this point, but John Byrne wrote the first Johnny and Alicia paring. At that time, Alicia was really Alicia. Tom DeFalco retconned that into being Lyja. In Marvel's defense, the Johnny/Alicia match was incredibly ugly given Johnny and Ben's relationship and replacing Alicia with a Skrull seemed the best way out of a terrible plot development. So technically, it wasn't the writer of the story, but the next writer who changed the situation. It's still assault, but who gets what blame easily gets confused.

[Tmacaoni]

Made a thread on it because I like to hear opinions on things. Didn't wanna detract from this FF thread. Very interesting insights though. You would think editorial would catch "rapey" subjects with the amount of stories that do the same things only different circumstances.