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  1. #76
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    Hate the Franklin retcon

    Sky needs to realize there are cultural differences...on Earth people tend to have multiple partners throughout their lives

  2. #77
    Mighty Member Thundershot's Avatar
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    Oh my god. Enough about the Lyja raping. Johnny was happy. Johnny got laid. Johnny has forgiven her. Heck, even Ben was pining for her after Johnny moved on. He was more upset that he fell in love with her under false pretenses, but he fell in love just the same. So did she. Johnny was even going to get back with her, but then Onslaught happened. It’s in the past... I hope Slott read all of that before tackling Lyja. Ben falling in love with her secretly was a big deal at the time.
    Last edited by Thundershot; 11-19-2020 at 07:52 AM.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundershot View Post
    Oh my god. Enough about the Lyja raping. Johnny was happy. Johnny got laid. Johnny has forgiven her. Heck, even Ben was pining for her after Johnny moved on. Johnny was even going to get back with her, but then Onslaught happened. It’s in the past... I hope Slott read all of that before tackling Lyja. Ben falling in love with her secretly was a big deal at the time.
    Thank you!!!! She is an awesome character and it is great to see her being used again, finally! I hope there is a connection to Nikki. Paibok is the father? If so this could be a direct tie to S.W.O.R.D.!
    TO KNOW HER IS TO FEAR HER: JESSICA DREW THE SPIDER-WOMAN
    BE SURE TO CHECK OUT THE NEW 2024 SPIDER-WOMAN SERIES by STEVE FOXE!!!

    MISSING:
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    Spider-Woman’s cowl costume

  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundershot View Post
    Oh my god. Enough about the Lyja raping. Johnny was happy. Johnny got laid. Johnny has forgiven her. Heck, even Ben was pining for her after Johnny moved on. He was more upset that he fell in love with her under false pretenses, but he fell in love just the same. So did she. Johnny was even going to get back with her, but then Onslaught happened. It’s in the past... I hope Slott read all of that before tackling Lyja. Ben falling in love with her secretly was a big deal at the time.
    No I don't think I will.

    Lyja is terrible character and rape should not be easily dismissed. It's a case of it not being taken seriously because the victim was a man. You don't see Carol Danvers' abuser show up and Lyja is just as bad. A relationship with Johnny after all that she's done would be disgusting on Marvel's part and show how they feel about men being sexually assaulted. It would show that they don't think it's a big deal or matters.
    Last edited by Crimz; 11-19-2020 at 07:58 AM.
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  5. #80
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Franklin meets Rikki Barnes!!!!!!!!!!

    I wuvs this so much.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I will fall back on my usual tripe, ummm, observations, that comic writing like most serialized literature is rather

    Soap Operetic. We love our super heroics, but actually the character stuff for many folks is the driving force of reading comics or other serial literature.

    Think about it. The fans who don't really care for continuity are character based in a different way, than serialized lit is.

    So..within soap Opera style writing is always the idea that your main characters and others in other levels or grades

    will actually change character/motivations/etc over time.
    The cycle is usually considered: Abuser. Abused. Redemptionist.
    It is basic soap or serial writing, because folks who like them, want to see character changes, progressions, degressions,e tc.

    So I see it is not for everyone, but don't we even once in a while no some real horrible person who finally changes a little. I have.

    So Lyja is not a terrible characters; she was created to be - at least initially - what she was - an antagonist.

    But in order for any character to stay fresh, or be useful going forward, they may need to change a number of factors.

    Sue had to go through the changes of being so abused, she lashed out at Psycho Man, and then later Reed, to become

    Invisible Woman. (or Malice, per the same idea).
    So Lyja deserves a chance, per the story to be a character we may want to see again, find relevant, or end up hating. But that is the game. If only, in story, Johnny seems to have forgiven her, we sorta have to, too.
    ~ Oberon ~
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  7. #82
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    PS:

    The cycle, Abused, Abuser, Redemptionist is not static. Characters in all these mediums -comics, soap operas, detective fiction, etc. etc - do not have to rotate through the roles in any particular order, or even all of them, though they mostly will at some point.

    Dr. Doom could be another good example of this, btw.
    ~ Oberon ~
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  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I will fall back on my usual tripe, ummm, observations, that comic writing like most serialized literature is rather

    Soap Operetic. We love our super heroics, but actually the character stuff for many folks is the driving force of reading comics or other serial literature.

    Think about it. The fans who don't really care for continuity are character based in a different way, than serialized lit is.

    So..within soap Opera style writing is always the idea that your main characters and others in other levels or grades

    will actually change character/motivations/etc over time.
    The cycle is usually considered: Abuser. Abused. Redemptionist.
    It is basic soap or serial writing, because folks who like them, want to see character changes, progressions, degressions,e tc.

    So I see it is not for everyone, but don't we even once in a while no some real horrible person who finally changes a little. I have.

    So Lyja is not a terrible characters; she was created to be - at least initially - what she was - an antagonist.

    But in order for any character to stay fresh, or be useful going forward, they may need to change a number of factors.

    Sue had to go through the changes of being so abused, she lashed out at Psycho Man, and then later Reed, to become

    Invisible Woman. (or Malice, per the same idea).
    So Lyja deserves a chance, per the story to be a character we may want to see again, find relevant, or end up hating. But that is the game. If only, in story, Johnny seems to have forgiven her, we sorta have to, too.
    Redemption can only happens when the wrongdoing has been acknowledged and made up for. Marvel has refused to acknowledge what she's done therefore she does not deserve forgiveness or redemption. And even in the case where she does receive them, a romantic relationship with Johnny should be out of the question. Even a friendship is pushing it. Having the victim of sexual assault be in a relationship with abuser is frankly sickening and should never happen. It sends such a disgusting message.

    Also, I don't have to forgive a character. Especially when their crime was raping a character I like.
    Last edited by Crimz; 11-19-2020 at 08:25 AM.
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  9. #84
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    I finished reading FF 671. While admitting that the Xavier/Franklin revelation was a hiuge pile of smelly animal waste (AKA pile of $#!+), I like the rest of the book, except for Val's hissy fit. But I've mentioned that.

    Sue taking a more active role in being a public spokesperson for the team is something that should have happened a long time ago.
    Jo-Venn and N'Kalla (Jo and Nikki) were great.
    So Lyja (who replaced a kidnapped blind woman) and seduced a member of the team into potentially breaking up a friendship isn't treated as a friendly guest star? Sounds good to me.
    The Griever coming back sounds good as well. I liked the relative logical simplicity with which she was thwarted in her first appearance, but that ploy doesn't exist now. It's been said that the FF needs new villains and the Griever certainly is one of those. Hopefully Slott finally handles a big villain story well.
    The parents of other Foundation members fit in well. Seeing as they were/are kids, the time differences experienced by them would be something hopefully noticed by their families.
    And Franklin and Rikki.

    My assessment is 18 very good pages and two piles of $#!+.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Redemption can only happens when the wrongdoing has been acknowledged and made up for. Marvel has refused to acknowledge what she's done therefore she does not deserve forgiveness or redemption. And even in the case where she does receive them, a romantic relationship with Johnny should be out of the question. Even a friendship is pushing it. Having the victim of sexual assault be in a relationship with abuser is frankly sickening and should never happen. It sends such a disgusting message.

    Also, I don't have to forgive a character. Especially when their crime was raping a character I like.
    You most certainly do not have to forgive. Many people who hate characters on Soap Operas "don't fall for their" apologies either, or believe they've changed.

    It's what I'm talking about .... Soap opera. Yes! You don't have to believe or forgive. You just have to keep on reading/viewing etc. Or you can go somewhere else.

    I'm not trying to be pithy or not treat you seriously, but I'm being consistent. Its why I've often indulged in my Namor-Sue stuff, because

    Soap Opera! It really is a big part of the writing style and obviously some of us either love or hate it,

    but that may well be "it's intended use".
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  11. #86
    Mighty Member Thundershot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    No I don't think I will.

    Lyja is terrible character and rape should not be easily dismissed. It's a case of it not being taken seriously because the victim was a man. You don't see Carol Danvers' abuser show up and Lyja is just as bad. A relationship with Johnny after all that she's done would be disgusting on Marvel's part and show how they feel about men being sexually assaulted. It would show that they don't think it's a big deal or matters.
    Your opinion about her being a terrible character. Many others, myself included, don’t agree.

    Let’s not forget that Lyja isn’t human. Infiltration is what a Skrull does, so for her, it was just SOP. Her mistake (as part of her mission) was falling in love with her victim (who was SUPPOSED to be Ben). I’m clearly not alone in loving the character and watching everything she’s gone through turn her into who she is today. Let’s just hope Slott can keep the momentum going and not regressing her to being a villain again.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    You most certainly do not have to forgive. Many people who hate characters on Soap Operas "don't fall for their" apologies either, or believe they've changed.

    It's what I'm talking about .... Soap opera. Yes! You don't have to believe or forgive. You just have to keep on reading/viewing etc. Or you can go somewhere else.

    I'm not trying to be pithy or not treat you seriously, but I'm being consistent. Its why I've often indulged in my Namor-Sue stuff, because

    Soap Opera! It really is a big part of the writing style and obviously some of us either love or hate it,

    but that may well be "it's intended use".
    Some acts can't be chalked up to it being a soap opera. There was a reason Marvel publicly apologized after what they did to Carol. Some acts need to treated a certain way even in soap opera's and sexual assault is one of them. These things don't happen in a vacuum and the blatant ignoring what Lyja did from Marvel is reinforcement of the view that sexual assault of men isn't important or serious.
    A small thing as changing the genders of Johnny and Lyja would lead to a very different reaction and response says everything.
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  13. #88
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundershot View Post
    Your opinion about her being a terrible character. Many others, myself included, don’t agree.

    Let’s not forget that Lyja isn’t human. Infiltration is what a Skrull does, so for her, it was just SOP. Her mistake (as part of her mission) was falling in love with her victim (who was SUPPOSED to be Ben). I’m clearly not alone in loving the character and watching everything she’s gone through turn her into who she is today. Let’s just hope Slott can keep the momentum going and not regressing her to being a villain again.
    Like whatever character you want. But there is one solid fact and that is what she did to Johnny was rape. I don't care if she shows up in books or gets to be a hero. What I care is that they don't try and pose her relationship with Johnny as anything other than abusive and manipulative. What I care about is how they shouldn't put these two characters in a romantic relationship because of the disgusting message it sends.
    That's my problem with Lyja, and that's what Marvel should never do.
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  14. #89
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baxer View Post
    If Franklin was 21 he could go to Krakoa witout their parent authorization, I remember him being 16. Makes no sense Valeria taking a drive test
    It wasn't a driving test per se. It was a weird flight/meta device test and regular 16 year limits didn't apply. Also licenses are given to those under the typical legal age when they are the only person in the household who is not handicapped. That doesn't apply here, but there are legal quirks in what is seen as a simple age limitation.

  15. #90
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Apparently Slott's been deluged by reactions to his Franklin retcon:

    https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/1329466086060945408
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott
    Hey. In order to focus on getting work done and comics made, I'm pulling back from conversations about Franklin & the FF. I have read hundreds and hundreds of your messages yesterday and I know how important this is to so many of you, and I want to ensure you that I am listening.
    https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/1329466920266051584
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott
    I also want to assure you FF and X-Fans alike that for the past couple years, at all the Marvel Retreats, everyone-- all the Marvel Offices and writers-- have heard my plans for the characters and know where the stories are going.
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