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  1. #1
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    Default Wouldn't it have made more sense...

    if Damian had been the son of Selina instead of Talia? That way in Tom King's run it would have given more weight to the Batman/Catwoman relationship. Oh,we have a son together, we know that we love each other let's get married. Plus you could have still done the Damian as a criminal thing in the beginning, although being trained as a thief with fighting skills instead of an assasin.

  2. #2
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think Damian being the son of a costumed cat-burglar would change his character quite a bit compared to being the scion of the Demon's Head and his daughter.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member LordMikel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTTT View Post
    if Damian had been the son of Selina instead of Talia? That way in Tom King's run it would have given more weight to the Batman/Catwoman relationship. Oh,we have a son together, we know that we love each other let's get married. Plus you could have still done the Damian as a criminal thing in the beginning, although being trained as a thief with fighting skills instead of an assasin.
    If Tom KIng had created Damian, I would say yes. But Damian was around before that. A better question would be, "because of Damian, wouldn't it make more sense for Tom King to write a love affair between Bruce and Talia."
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  4. #4
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    If Damian was some bring new OC introduced in King's run than yeah, it would but since he's been around for a hot minute now it wouldn't make any sense to retcon him as Bruce and Selina's biological son.

  5. #5
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    Stop trying to make dami batcat's kid! They already have helena! Let damian and athanasia symbolize brutalia!
    "Everything doesn't have to be about fear. There's room in our line of work for hope, too"- Stephanie Brown, Batgirl Vol 3 #5

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  6. #6
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Don't worry, sooner or later one writer will retcon Damian as Selina and Bruce's lovechild for the sake of shipping. They'll just say Talia went crazy and stole Selina's newborn baby.
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    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Batman Brave and The Bold animated series already did the Damian son of Bruce and Selina who goes on to be Robin to Dickbats storyline.


  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    No, because that's not why the character's created

  9. #9
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Batman Brave and The Bold animated series already did the Damian son of Bruce and Selina who goes on to be Robin to Dickbats storyline.

    Can't see the image. Wikia/Fandom just changed their software, looks like hotlinking is blocked now.
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  10. #10
    Mighty Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTTT View Post
    if Damian had been the son of Selina instead of Talia? That way in Tom King's run it would have given more weight to the Batman/Catwoman relationship. Oh,we have a son together, we know that we love each other let's get married. Plus you could have still done the Damian as a criminal thing in the beginning, although being trained as a thief with fighting skills instead of an assasin.
    That gives less weight to the Bat/Cat relationship. They're going from getting married because they love each other to getting married because they have a kid.

    Damian has nothing to do with Bruce and Selina's relationship and that doesn't need to change. The character was never made to accommodate the BatCat ship so why should he suddenly be made to do that now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Damian being the son of a costumed cat-burglar would change his character quite a bit compared to being the scion of the Demon's Head and his daughter.
    Pretty much this. He'd basically stop being Damian. Even at her worst, I doubt Selina would be the kind of parent that Talia and Ra's were. Take away his upbringing and you're left with someone who might as well be a completely new character.
    Last edited by Blue22; 11-18-2020 at 12:49 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    That gives less weight to the Bat/Cat relationship. They're going from getting married because they love each other to getting married because they have a kid.

    Damian has nothing to do with Bruce and Selina's relationship and that doesn't need to change. The character was never made to accommodate the BatCat ship so why should he suddenly be made to do that now?



    Pretty much this. He'd basically stop being Damian. Even at her worst, I doubt Selina would be the kind of parent that Talia and Ra's were. Take away his upbringing and you're left with someone who might as well be a completely new character.
    You mean like Tallant and Ibn, who are both technically Damian, are completely different characters due to Talia's choices?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTTT View Post
    if Damian had been the son of Selina instead of Talia? That way in Tom King's run it would have given more weight to the Batman/Catwoman relationship. Oh,we have a son together, we know that we love each other let's get married. Plus you could have still done the Damian as a criminal thing in the beginning, although being trained as a thief with fighting skills instead of an assasin.
    Only if you have not read or consumed any Batman media prior to September 2007.

    However, if you have you realize that Tom King's series has no foundation in the previous established canon. You will also understand why people were infuriated by the rape retcon as it's well established in canon that Bruce and Talia slept together on the regular in addition to having a good understanding of each other's characters and personalities. In addition you'll understand why the fans and readers immediately latched onto Damian when Helena has been consistently brushed off with a shrug of indifference. For 40 years, BruTalia was unquestionably the ship as all the Batman guides and encyclopedias from prior to 2012 have stated. Despite having under 200 appearances prior to 2012 over a 40 year period, Talia was established by multiple writers as someone with a strong sense of ethics (remember kids: morals are centered around oneself, ethics are centered around others), compassion, and a character who despite the high personal costs consistently would put others above herself.

    In fact, the Paris books from King's run are meant to reference No Man's Land 0, when Talia walks in to pick Bruce up at his lowest and puts him back on his feet. She does it in seven pages, and in those seven pages elicits more emotional response and affection from Bruce than Selina did in seven issues.

    That's what happens when there's a good writer who has a great grasp of characters and considers women humans, which King doesn't.

    Outside of the Hush storylines, there aren't that many stories about Bruce and Selina as a couple, and they're mainly from the Catwoman book. It's why the 80 Years of BatCat book was so small and elicits yawns. It doesn't even have most of the stories referenced in King's series as rereading those original stories shows Selina is a bit of...well, she has a lot of defenders on this site who don't actually know what the silver, bronze, and dark age character was but it makes sense that Bruce would never trust her or advance a relationship with her.

  13. #13
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    Only if you have not read or consumed any Batman media prior to September 2007.

    However, if you have you realize that Tom King's series has no foundation in the previous established canon. You will also understand why people were infuriated by the rape retcon as it's well established in canon that Bruce and Talia slept together on the regular in addition to having a good understanding of each other's characters and personalities. In addition you'll understand why the fans and readers immediately latched onto Damian when Helena has been consistently brushed off with a shrug of indifference. For 40 years, BruTalia was unquestionably the ship as all the Batman guides and encyclopedias from prior to 2012 have stated. Despite having under 200 appearances prior to 2012 over a 40 year period, Talia was established by multiple writers as someone with a strong sense of ethics (remember kids: morals are centered around oneself, ethics are centered around others), compassion, and a character who despite the high personal costs consistently would put others above herself.

    In fact, the Paris books from King's run are meant to reference No Man's Land 0, when Talia walks in to pick Bruce up at his lowest and puts him back on his feet. She does it in seven pages, and in those seven pages elicits more emotional response and affection from Bruce than Selina did in seven issues.

    That's what happens when there's a good writer who has a great grasp of characters and considers women humans, which King doesn't.

    Outside of the Hush storylines, there aren't that many stories about Bruce and Selina as a couple, and they're mainly from the Catwoman book. It's why the 80 Years of BatCat book was so small and elicits yawns. It doesn't even have most of the stories referenced in King's series as rereading those original stories shows Selina is a bit of...well, she has a lot of defenders on this site who don't actually know what the silver, bronze, and dark age character was but it makes sense that Bruce would never trust her or advance a relationship with her.
    While I don't think making Damian Selina's son over Talia is a remotely good idea or necessary, I think you're inflating Bruce/Talia's romance over Bruce/Selina's a bit here. At most, they are on roughly equal terms when looking at Batman's entire history, but even then Selina has the advantage of being around a few decades more and having a bigger pop culture impact thanks to other media. Where she is both a villain and his most well received popular love interest (chiefly in movies like Batman Returns and Dark Knight Rises, and now The Batman seems poised to go for three). In these shipping wars online, people need to stop acting like Bruce/Selina begins and ends with Tom King (whether that means you love him or hate him). It's bigger than mainstream comics, their romance (healthy or toxic) can be referenced in wider pop culture and the casuals will instantly get it, whereas they are less likely to know who Talia is.

    Damian having the advantage over Helena has little to do with Bruce/Talia being a superior romance. He was created by Grant Morrison in a high profile run and got to forge a popular dynamic with Dick, plus he has the benefit of being a more manageable 10 year old kid in the main continuity that doesn't require an older retired Batman like Helena Wayne as Huntress. Even then, I don't know if people have been "indifferent" to Helena, she seemed pretty well received for the type of character she was and the main reason she couldn't take off like Damian was because of stuff like COIE making her difficult to use. And there are plenty of reasons for both women for Bruce to not trust them or advance a relationship. Just as a writer could believably write an advance romance with either of them, the whole point with both of them is they could go either way.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by oopsididitagain View Post
    don't worry, sooner or later one writer will retcon damian as selina and bruce's lovechild for the sake of shipping. They'll just say talia went crazy and stole selina's newborn baby.
    i hate it so much!
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    While I don't think making Damian Selina's son over Talia is a remotely good idea or necessary, I think you're inflating Bruce/Talia's romance over Bruce/Selina's a bit here. At most, they are on roughly equal terms when looking at Batman's entire history, but even then Selina has the advantage of being around a few decades more and having a bigger pop culture impact thanks to other media. Where she is both a villain and his most well received popular love interest (chiefly in movies like Batman Returns and Dark Knight Rises, and now The Batman seems poised to go for three). In these shipping wars online, people need to stop acting like Bruce/Selina begins and ends with Tom King (whether that means you love him or hate him). It's bigger than mainstream comics, their romance (healthy or toxic) can be referenced in wider pop culture and the casuals will instantly get it, whereas they are less likely to know who Talia is.

    Damian having the advantage over Helena has little to do with Bruce/Talia being a superior romance. He was created by Grant Morrison in a high profile run and got to forge a popular dynamic with Dick, plus he has the benefit of being a more manageable 10 year old kid in the main continuity that doesn't require an older retired Batman like Helena Wayne as Huntress. Even then, I don't know if people have been "indifferent" to Helena, she seemed pretty well received for the type of character she was and the main reason she couldn't take off like Damian was because of stuff like COIE making her difficult to use. And there are plenty of reasons for both women for Bruce to not trust them or advance a relationship. Just as a writer could believably write an advance romance with either of them, the whole point with both of them is they could go either way.
    This is a great argument! I like Helena and Damian a lot and I think they fit well right where they are. You Take Helena out of E2 then you lose what makes her unique
    "Everything doesn't have to be about fear. There's room in our line of work for hope, too"- Stephanie Brown, Batgirl Vol 3 #5

    "Quit? Like hell I will"- Bette Kane, Beast Boy #3

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