Is Captain America the Avenger With The Best Supporting Cast?

[Huntsman Spider]

What’s sad is that that seems to describe most of Marvel’s superheroes. That’s why they systematically got rid of most of the civilian identities.

Indeed, and because they have no actual personal ties to the people and world they protect, they have no real emotional investment in those people or that world, which would explain why they don't seem to think all the physical devastation incurred in their battles with the forces of evil (or even each other) is that big a deal anymore.

[Agent Z]

I agree. i think this is the main problem with Cap writers trying to develop a supporting cast who is not a superhero or Shield or a spy. No one really cares about Steve Rodgers the man. They care about Captain America.

Where as with Spiderman people care about what happens not just to Spiderman but to Peter as well.

With Cap its like. oh No Steve lost his job and place to live. No biggie he can just go chill at Avengers Mansion and do some side work for Shield. there was never any consequence for Captain America if Steve Rodgers life went to Hell.

The difference between Steve and Peter is that Steve doesn't have a secret identity and therefore doesn't feel the need to treat his hero life and personal life as necessarily separate. It doesn't mean Steve is a poorly-written character just a different one from Peter.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

If Peter Parker's life goes to hell, it has to have meaningful impact on his ability to continue as Spider-Man, and him being able to fall back on the Avengers (or the Fantastic Four) for support takes away from that sense of impact or consequence.

I think it's mostly just Iron Man and Captain America that are the problem. Spider-Man can't be too heavily associated with someone like Captain America who (generally) has a good public image, or else the media propaganda and the police's hatred of him isn't effective. And he can't be too associated with Tony Stark for financial reasons.

The nature of the Avengers is another reason why it doesn't work. As others pointed out, the Avengers spend a lot of time together and are each other's supporting characters to an extent. Even when Tony is in LA and Cap is in Washington, they never "feel" that far apart. Contrast that with Superman and Batman who both live close to New York and are close friends, yet it's somehow more believable they wouldn't constantly show up in each other's stories.

But outside of that, I can totally see Spider-Man working in a Avengers team, just not with most of the roster we are used to.

LOL about the Cap/Fry comparison. Great one.

It really is. Even with Fry being a comedic character and all, the two have a lot in common. They both grew up being pushovers, feeling a sense of loneliness and lack of purpose in their time period (Steve not as much as Fry, but he was still one of the only superheroes; plus, after WWII ended, it's not like Steve could've done much to benefit the world with the MU following real history and WWII being the last "good war" - it's in the Avengers where Steve finds a family of people like him, much like Fry finds one at his workplace).

Outside of that, they would both get along great. They are both from the 20th century and know what it's like to literally lose everything. They've been the heart of their respective crew and have been mocked for their idealism. They've both seen numerous planets with alien species and have saved the world on a few occasions.

Oh, and they both have kickass girlfriends and morally-ambiguous alcoholic friends with shiny metal asses.

[Tony Stark]

Tony normally has Happy, Pepper, Bethany, Rhodey and Ms. Abograst, but I would say Thor probably has the best.

[Agent Z]

Indeed, and because they have no actual personal ties to the people and world they protect, they have no real emotional investment in those people or that world, which would explain why they don't seem to think all the physical devastation incurred in their battles with the forces of evil (or even each other) is that big a deal anymore.

I don't think a secret identity is required for this. If a writer wants heroes to interact with normal people they will simply write them that way. Wonder Woman hasn't had a secret identity since the 1980s (barring two ill-fated attempts to bring it back) and still interacts with regular people

[Triniking1234]

If we include everyone that ever had membership, Spidey and Wolverine are just gonna crap on everyone.

If it's core members then Thor > Captain America > Iron Man > Hulk.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I don't think a secret identity is not required for this. If a writer wants heroes to interact with normal people they will simply write them that way. Wonder Woman hasn't had a secret identity since the 1980s (barring two ill-fated attempts to bring it back) and still interacts with regular people

Right. Also Luke Cage and Jessica Jones don't have this problem.

[Jabare]

If we count Spider-Man, then he has the best supporting cast, but it's still hard to think of Spider-Man as an Avenger (partly because it's debatable if he even belongs there, and partly because Avenger Spider-Man has always been poorly written).

Therefore I gotta go with Cap. Cap also gets away the most with using other Avengers as supporting characters just because the Avengers are kinda his natural home in the modern world. The Avengers are to him what the Planet Express crew is to Phillip J. Fry.

it's not debatable tho. He's litterally been part of the team for years during one of the most succesful Avengers runs ever and in two of the most succesful movies ever.

If we are just talking MCU the answer is Cap. You could are gue Thor, but no one would co-sign that until Ragnarok came out.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

It really is. Even with Fry being a comedic character and all, the two have a lot in common. They both grew up being pushovers, feeling a sense of loneliness and lack of purpose in their time period (Steve not as much as Fry, but he was still one of the only superheroes; plus, after WWII ended, it's not like Steve could've done much to benefit the world with the MU following real history and WWII being the last "good war" - it's in the Avengers where Steve finds a family of people like him, much like Fry finds one at his workplace).

Outside of that, they would both get along great. They are both from the 20th century and know what it's like to literally lose everything. They've been the heart of their respective crew and have been mocked for their idealism. They've both seen numerous planets with alien species and have saved the world on a few occasions.

That's certainly fair. God I miss Futurama (though I am happy with how the show ended, and thought that "Meanwhile" the current final episode is a good note to close on). Ir's better than The Simpsons (though I like that too).

Oh, and they both have kickass girlfriends and morally-ambiguous alcoholic friends with shiny metal asses.

Bender and Tony are peas in a pod. Prof. Farnsworth could be Hank Pym (jackass scientist).

[babyblob]

Bender and Tony are peas in a pod. Prof. Farnsworth could be Hank Pym (jackass scientist).

I Miss the days hank was treated seriously in the comics. I mean he was one of the first heroes for Marvel in the 60s, a founding member of The Avengers. And yet he has been treated like **** over the years. Turned into a crazy man with Multiple personalities and a wife beater. Because you know heroes have to have flaws and such.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I Miss the days hank was treated seriously in the comics.

Those days never existed. Pym was always the f--k-up Avenger long before Avengers #211 and "The Trial of Yellowjacket".

I mean he was one of the first heroes for Marvel in the 60s, a founding member of The Avengers.

That doesn't have any inherent value. He was a founding member of the Avengers and a prominent feature of it at a time when the Avengers were fairly marginal and underselling in the grand scheme of things.

This whole notion of "he was there in the '60s" and he "founded the Avengers" and so on and so forth, people need to get over that because it's starting to sound like Constitutional Originalism and the wisdom of the Founding Fathers, you know the idea that we must keep the constitution as close as possible to the late 1700s and not give as much value to the amendments and stuff which came later. The rise of the X-Men and later changes to Marvel are the 13th,14,15th amendments in this light.

And ultimately, Hank Pym angst comes at the expense of Janet (who came up with the goddamn name of the entire team -- "The Avengers") and was a far more active part in that group, and got to be the leader of the Avengers after she and Hank divorced, but every attempt to "Redeem" Hank comes at her expense.

Turned into a crazy man with Multiple personalities and a wife beater. Because you know heroes have to have flaws and such.

The "turn into a crazy man with multiple personalities" happened in Roy Thomas' major run on The Avengers, so it's a core part of the Avengers team dynamic.

There was never this period in Marvel comics where Hank Pym was looked on as this fearless leader and all around cool guy within the Avengers. Scott Lang treats him that way of course but he's Scott Lang.

[Frontier]

The difference between Steve and Peter is that Steve doesn't have a secret identity and therefore doesn't feel the need to treat his hero life and personal life as necessarily separate. It doesn't mean Steve is a poorly-written character just a different one from Peter.

Yeah, his personal life is pretty much defined by being Cap and his work for the government. Other than Sharon it doesn't seem like he has much he enjoys doing outside of that anymore.

I don't think a secret identity is not required for this. If a writer wants heroes to interact with normal people they will simply write them that way. Wonder Woman hasn't had a secret identity since the 1980s (barring two ill-fated attempts to bring it back) and still interacts with regular people

Sometimes seems like she interacts more with the military than she does with regular people.

Right. Also Luke Cage and Jessica Jones don't have this problem.

Luke Cage and Jessica Jones are probably less overt compared to most Marvel heroes. Heck, neither of them really wear costumes either. Compared to other heroes with public identities they're much more down-to-Earth, although I'm not sure if they have "normal" friends.

If we are just talking MCU the answer is Cap. You could are gue Thor, but no one would co-sign that until Ragnarok came out.

Even with Ragnarok we only have, like, Valkyrie because Hulk isn't a Thor character (and Korg and Miek are Hulk characters) and Heimdall and Loki died. And that's still not a lot of people.

[babyblob]

Those days never existed. Pym was always the f--k-up Avenger long before Avengers #211 and "The Trial of Yellowjacket".



That doesn't have any inherent value. He was a founding member of the Avengers and a prominent feature of it at a time when the Avengers were fairly marginal and underselling in the grand scheme of things.

This whole notion of "he was there in the '60s" and he "founded the Avengers" and so on and so forth, people need to get over that because it's starting to sound like Constitutional Originalism and the wisdom of the Founding Fathers, you know the idea that we must keep the constitution as close as possible to the late 1700s and not give as much value to the amendments and stuff which came later. The rise of the X-Men and later changes to Marvel are the 13th,14,15th amendments in this light.

And ultimately, Hank Pym angst comes at the expense of Janet (who came up with the goddamn name of the entire team -- "The Avengers") and was a far more active part in that group, and got to be the leader of the Avengers after she and Hank divorced, but every attempt to "Redeem" Hank comes at her expense.



The "turn into a crazy man with multiple personalities" happened in Roy Thomas' major run on The Avengers, so it's a core part of the Avengers team dynamic.

There was never this period in Marvel comics where Hank Pym was looked on as this fearless leader and all around cool guy within the Avengers. Scott Lang treats him that way of course but he's Scott Lang.

I am more talking the Early days that I am reading. As Ant man he helped the Fantastic Four and left with the FF having Respect for him. In The Avengers before he left he team the other members talk of their respect for him. Tony Stark in the issue he leaves the Avengers talks of his respect for his teamates including Hank. When He returned to The Avengers As Goliath he is treated with respect by the others. yes Hawkeye mouths off to him at times but he is treated with favor and respect by the other members including Black Panther when he joined. he was treated with respect by Captain America. Before he went all crazy with the first appearance of Yellow jacket in Avengers 58 I think.

Those are the days I miss. I know characters change and stuff but I will always love those early days. And I do have a lot of respect for hank because he was one of the Founding Fathers of 60s Marvel even if he was a gimmick hero I always enjoyed him.

I also liked him In West Coast Avengers where he didnt have a costume and was still helping the team and making up with Janet to the point everyone thought they were getting back together. (Though I am glad they did not I think Janet is a better character without him)

I get you comparing hank to the Founding Fathers of America and all of that but I dont really care about that as I dont get that heavy into comics. I would love to see more Trans/gay and Minority characters/writers/artists but that is political as I get with comics.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I am more talking the Early days that I am reading. As Ant man he helped the Fantastic Four and left with the FF having Respect for him. In The Avengers before he left he team the other members talk of their respect for him. Tony Stark in the issue he leaves the Avengers talks of his respect for his teamates including Hank. When He returned to The Avengers As Goliath he is treated with respect by the others. yes Hawkeye mouths off to him at times but he is treated with favor and respect by the other members including Black Panther when he joined. he was treated with respect by Captain America. Before he went all crazy with the first appearance of Yellow jacket in Avengers 58 I think.

Even before that he created Ultron. So even back then, there were issues with him. Look at the early Avengers comics and he's often dismissive and sexist to Jan (albeit not moreso than Reed to Sue in that time).

And I do have a lot of respect for hank because he was one of the Founding Fathers of 60s Marvel even if he was a gimmick hero I always enjoyed him.

Founding fathers of '60s Marvel is a big stretch imo because it conveys a false idea of the level of importance that the Avengers had back then to the wider Marvel Universe and publishing as a whole. The Avengers became important to Marvel over time, in the same way the X-Men did. It's also dubious to apply that to the characters rather than the creators.

I think it makes sense to call Kirby, Lee, Ditko founding fathers of '60s Marvel, but extending that to the characters they created is a bit of nonsense. And if you can apply that to any of the characters, then it's the Fantastic Four. The FF run under Lee-Kirby introduced the entire 616 Continuity, it brought Namor back into circulation connecting the Timely Era to the '60s Marvel era, it introduced Wakanda, Inhumans, Silver Surfer which spun out of their pages. Doctor Doom became the major Marvel villain even back then. Major Avengers bad guys like Kang the Conqueror spun out of Fantastic Four as well. The Avengers have no claim of performing any similar function in terms of impact. Sure it brought Captain America out of ice...but that was setup in Fantastic Four when it brought back Namor. Johnny Storm finding a random hobo and shaving him to reveal Namor essentially meant the entire Timely Era -- Namor, Toro, Cap, Bucky -- was in continuity again. So from there it was a logical leap to bring original Cap back.

Without the Fantastic Four, Marvel 616 wouldn't exist. But without the Avengers, it absolutely would have, so in no way can the Avengers or any member of the Avengers be considered a "founding father". They do not arrive at that importance.

The titles that kept Marvel afloat in the '60s and '70s was Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and the license to do Star Wars comics...the Avengers would not be missed even if it never got published in that time. And while this seems like a dig, let me say the same applies to the X-Men (who went into reprints in this time). The X-Men weren't important to Marvel until 1975 and under Claremont's run from the late-70s to the early 90s. So I think attaching importance and value to longevity and so on, inherently doesn't have purpose. The Avengers' had decent runs and great stories of course, especially under Roger Stern, but their moment in the sun was the 2000s, in both comics and movies.

Look whenever people talk of the Avengers and the Big three, it's always Cap, Thor, Tony...and if there's a fourth, its Hulk, and nowadays people would add Carol Danvers as the fourth, and maybe T'Challa as the fifth.

[Frontier]

Look whenever people talk of the Avengers and the Big three, it's always Cap, Thor, Tony...and if there's a fourth, its Hulk, and nowadays people would add Carol Danvers as the fourth, and maybe T'Challa as the fifth.

I think nowadays people would put T'Challa as the fourth, because I've seen merchandise of the Big Three + Black Panther around the time of the movie, when merchandise used to be the Big Three + Hulk.

(Maybe there's some Big Three + Captain Marvel merchandise that I haven't seen).