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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Even before that he created Ultron. So even back then, there were issues with him. Look at the early Avengers comics and he's often dismissive and sexist to Jan (albeit not moreso than Reed to Sue in that time).



    Founding fathers of '60s Marvel is a big stretch imo because it conveys a false idea of the level of importance that the Avengers had back then to the wider Marvel Universe and publishing as a whole. The Avengers became important to Marvel over time, in the same way the X-Men did. It's also dubious to apply that to the characters rather than the creators.

    I think it makes sense to call Kirby, Lee, Ditko founding fathers of '60s Marvel, but extending that to the characters they created is a bit of nonsense. And if you can apply that to any of the characters, then it's the Fantastic Four. The FF run under Lee-Kirby introduced the entire 616 Continuity, it brought Namor back into circulation connecting the Timely Era to the '60s Marvel era, it introduced Wakanda, Inhumans, Silver Surfer which spun out of their pages. Doctor Doom became the major Marvel villain even back then. Major Avengers bad guys like Kang the Conqueror spun out of Fantastic Four as well. The Avengers have no claim of performing any similar function in terms of impact. Sure it brought Captain America out of ice...but that was setup in Fantastic Four when it brought back Namor. Johnny Storm finding a random hobo and shaving him to reveal Namor essentially meant the entire Timely Era -- Namor, Toro, Cap, Bucky -- was in continuity again. So from there it was a logical leap to bring original Cap back.

    Without the Fantastic Four, Marvel 616 wouldn't exist. But without the Avengers, it absolutely would have, so in no way can the Avengers or any member of the Avengers be considered a "founding father". They do not arrive at that importance.

    The titles that kept Marvel afloat in the '60s and '70s was Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and the license to do Star Wars comics...the Avengers would not be missed even if it never got published in that time. And while this seems like a dig, let me say the same applies to the X-Men (who went into reprints in this time). The X-Men weren't important to Marvel until 1975 and under Claremont's run from the late-70s to the early 90s. So I think attaching importance and value to longevity and so on, inherently doesn't have purpose. The Avengers' had decent runs and great stories of course, especially under Roger Stern, but their moment in the sun was the 2000s, in both comics and movies.

    Look whenever people talk of the Avengers and the Big three, it's always Cap, Thor, Tony...and if there's a fourth, its Hulk, and nowadays people would add Carol Danvers as the fourth, and maybe T'Challa as the fifth.
    I am not debating that The Fantastic Four are more important to Marvel. I am not debating that The Avengers were not that popular. But I still love Hank and he ranks up there as a Founding Father to me. That is my personal view. I really like him and his appearances in the 60's I enjoy The Avengers in the 60's more then the Fantastic Four of the same era. I dont care over all importance to the marvel Universe as a whole when I read a story.

    I enjoy the stories I enjoy with out caring about sales or ground breaking issues. yes The Fantastic Four did more for Marvel as a whole. But I still enjoy hank and The Avengers more then them. To me they are Founding Fathers.

    That is the good thing about comics. We can all have our own view points and favorites.

    And Hank is not the only Hero that has made bad mistakes or been a bad husband. I mean how many times has Reed put the city or Earth in danger from experiments gone wrong? More so in the Ultimate Universe. Hell in 616 he brought Galuctus back to life. Spiderman brought an alien Symbiote back to Earth and look at all the trouble that has caused. Hulk has gone on haw many rampages and put people at risk? I mean Hell Jean Grey destroyed a whole solar system.
    Last edited by babyblob; 11-20-2020 at 12:04 PM.
    Favorite teams. Alpha Flight, Avengers, Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers, Justice Society of America, Legion of Superheroes.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Sometimes seems like she interacts more with the military than she does with regular people.
    Those are a lot closer to regular people than superheroes.

  3. #48
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Those are a lot closer to regular people than superheroes.
    I don't know if I agree, but I guess it depends on how you look at it.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think nowadays people would put T'Challa as the fourth, because I've seen merchandise of the Big Three + Black Panther around the time of the movie, when merchandise used to be the Big Three + Hulk.

    (Maybe there's some Big Three + Captain Marvel merchandise that I haven't seen).
    I think in terms of general perception T'Challa ranks above Captain Marvel. His comic sales don't reflect that though and they haven't since 2018's disastrous solo relaunch and the numerous failed spin-offs stemming from Coates. Looking at supporting casts I'd argue T'Challa has the superior supporting cast in the MCU but in the comics his supporting characters are so bloated and redundant that Carol almost wins by default lol.

  5. #50
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I don't think a secret identity is required for this. If a writer wants heroes to interact with normal people they will simply write them that way. Wonder Woman hasn't had a secret identity since the 1980s (barring two ill-fated attempts to bring it back) and still interacts with regular people
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Right. Also Luke Cage and Jessica Jones don't have this problem.
    Fair enough, though I could say that's because Luke and Jessica don't get involved with all the interpersonal superhero drama and politics and focus mainly on caring for their family and their community, which makes them a lot more empathetic to regular people and their struggles compared to how most publicly known superheroes seem to act these days.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Those are a lot closer to regular people than superheroes.
    I definitely don't agree with that.

  7. #52
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    I mena are we counting Wolverine's supporting cast? He might beat out Spider-Man with that
    The J-man

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    I mena are we counting Wolverine's supporting cast? He might beat out Spider-Man with that
    If we mean the X-Men, the problem is that Wolverine is one of the X-men, he's not the only protagonist or main character of a team book, so it wouldn't make sense to call the X-men his supporting cast when he himself is basically part of the supporting cast for Scott, Xavier, Jean Gray, Storm, Kitty Pryde.

    If we take Wolverine's solo title...then the supporting cast is...the Hudsons (?), Mariko, Daken (who's also a villain and currently a member of X-Force). That's not impressive, my dude.

    Supporting cast needs a narrow definition. What is the cast of a character in a solo title? A more narrow definition, how much of the supporting cast count as non-superheroes, non-sidekicks, non-villains.

    If we say Cap has a great supporting cast and include the Avengers, we'd need to argue that Thor has a great supporting cast and that includes Cap in his supporting cast as well, and that is category fraud.

    Spider-Man and Daredevil have a traditional supporting cast, and the best in Marvel as a whole.

    -- Daredevil has Foggy Nelson, the Stick, Karen Page (or he did), and now recently that includes his ex-wives, ex-girlfriends, his girls-of-the-week, denizens at Josie's.
    -- Spider-Man has the biggest civilian supporting cast of Marvel, including Marvel's two biggest civilian characters who are the only ones to have made more than 1100 appearances (and counting), Mary Jane Watson, and J. Jonah Jameson. Then you have Aunt May, Robbie Robertson, Flash Thompson, Harry Osborn, Liz Allan, and so on and so forth.

  9. #54
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    I think in terms of general perception T'Challa ranks above Captain Marvel. His comic sales don't reflect that though and they haven't since 2018's disastrous solo relaunch and the numerous failed spin-offs stemming from Coates. Looking at supporting casts I'd argue T'Challa has the superior supporting cast in the MCU but in the comics his supporting characters are so bloated and redundant that Carol almost wins by default lol.
    Granted, Carol doesn't have many big, consistent, names like T'Challa does as far as core supporting cast goes. I guess Jessica Drew is like her Shuri? Maybe?

  10. #55
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    Cap's supporting cast is so interesting that Coates decided to make his run about them and relegate Cap to a side character in his own book. What other supporting cast can say that of itself?^^
    Tolstoy will live forever. Some people do. But that's not enough. It's not the length of a life that matters, just the depth of it. The chances we take. The paths we choose. How we go on when our hearts break. Hearts always break and so we bend with our hearts. And we sway. But in the end what matters is that we loved... and lived.

  11. #56
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    Cap's supporting cast is so interesting that Coates decided to make his run about them and relegate Cap to a side character in his own book. What other supporting cast can say that of itself?^^
    LOL! That is too funny. But true .

  12. #57
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    I think Thor has a pretty good supporting cast.

    Loki
    Jane
    Baldur
    Warrior's Three
    Enchantress
    Valkyrie

  13. #58
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    I think Thor has a pretty good supporting cast.

    Loki
    Jane
    Baldur
    Warrior's Three
    Enchantress
    Valkyrie
    Yeah. This is why I said Thor.
    " There are individuals out there who are so intent on violent engagement with me that they will go to great lengths to engineer one...including the murder of those close to me. And everything I've come to believe about myself and my so called evolution...they completely disregard. They just don't get it. They're fighting against an inevitable future, but they just don't realize I'm already there...I Am The Future.." TONY STARK

  14. #59
    Mighty Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    Cap's supporting cast is so interesting that Coates decided to make his run about them and relegate Cap to a side character in his own book. What other supporting cast can say that of itself?^^
    LOL I'm officially ded.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    Cap's supporting cast is so interesting that Coates decided to make his run about them and relegate Cap to a side character in his own book. What other supporting cast can say that of itself?^^
    And itís technically happened twice! Brubaker arguably did first, in a better written way.

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