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  1. #151
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tmacaoni View Post
    Screwball: Thought she was introduced as kind of a major character that got some more readers interested in parkour. Then she came back again as a major villain for Arana, but that got dropped as well.
    She's made a few sporadic appearances in stuff like the recent Elektra volume, Spider-Man/Deadpool, and even Amazing Mary Jane.

    She's sporting a new, anime-style, hairdo with twintails.
    Silver Sable: I always found her an oddity in Spidey's world, but the Black Cat stand in was pretty fun. Shame that she couldn't get her own mercenary type book as I think she actually can carry a title.
    Sable still gets some use every now and then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Most likely, they'll bring him back to kill him off. Similar to how Slott killed Ashley Kafka, a JMD creation he had used in a number of titles but had fallen by the wayside and Slott brought her back just to kill her off. (Don't @me about her returning as a clone in Clone Conspiracy).
    And in the Ravencroft book and Last Remains.
    Sometimes it's not a bad thing for supporting characters to be shelved and left standing. Not everything has to be harvested and mined. Skurge the Executioner had an iconic moment in Walt Simonson's run on The Mighty Thor and nobody has gone ahead and returned Skurge from Helheim.
    Uh...



    (Admittedly he was left to rest in peace by the end of this series).

  2. #152
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tmacaoni View Post
    Well there was a few that I liked that may or may not have been "major".

    Screwball: Thought she was introduced as kind of a major character that got some more readers interested in parkour. Then she came back again as a major villain for Arana, but that got dropped as well.

    Ana Karvinoff: Also was the new bees knees Kravenesque knockoff. She made a great showing to be and showed some promise. Character kind of fell off after her family returned and even more so once turned into an inhuman. Still wish she were utilized in that X-23 book before.

    Paperdoll: One of Slott's villains of the month that I actually liked. Powers were unique...I was ready for those oragami shurikens. I thought Slott would bring her back for Superior, but no. She remains to be only shown in the kill Mary Jane stand alone arc. UGH.

    Hummingbird from Kaine fame. Such a waste.

    The Horizon staff. I mean besides Sajani (I think that was her name), Max and crew just haven't shown up anymore. These were some smart students that could've easily gotten another Spider-related book based off them.

    Silver Sable: I always found her an oddity in Spidey's world, but the Black Cat stand in was pretty fun. Shame that she couldn't get her own mercenary type book as I think she actually can carry a title.
    Sable got a book in the 90s, but apparently no one was reading it.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  3. #153
    "Emma is STILL right! Vegeta's Avatar
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    It felt like Dexter Bennett was going to be a bigger part of the books (either as a problem for Peter or a publishing rival for Jameson) than he actually was, eventually being crippled by some falling debris and bought out of the Bugle.
    "The White Queen welcomes you, TO DIE!"

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Sable got a book in the 90s, but apparently no one was reading it.
    At one point, she and She-Hulk were the only Marvel female characters with solo books.

  5. #155
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tmacaoni View Post
    Well there was a few that I liked that may or may not have been "major".

    Screwball: Thought she was introduced as kind of a major character that got some more readers interested in parkour. Then she came back again as a major villain for Arana, but that got dropped as well.
    Anya just fought a few of Spidey's villains in her comics, Phil Hobgoblin and Ana were there too, Spidey even makes a comment about how she defeated Hobgoblin, 'cause while he made a super advanced stealth suit that can block sound to deal with his laugh that can paralyze people, all she did to deal with that was plug her ears lol.

    Also wouldn't say she was a major villain for Anya, Screwball showed up like twice, and only got some focus in one of the issues.

    Ana Karvinoff: Also was the new bees knees Kravenesque knockoff. She made a great showing to be and showed some promise. Character kind of fell off after her family returned and even more so once turned into an inhuman. Still wish she were utilized in that X-23 book before.
    The Inhuman thing might've been the most screen time she had, maybe Grim Hunt was comparable, but yeah, after that, limbo, even less likely to return now that Kraven-clone is around and she disowned Kraven himself (Though knowing Marvel's editorial, they probably don't even know that happened).

    Hummingbird from Kaine fame. Such a waste.
    She made a cameo in some Doctor Strange comic of all places... Which makes Kaine's "I didn't bring Aracely come to Las Vegas to deal with Kaine because it could be too dangerous" look really ironic lol.

    The Horizon staff. I mean besides Sajani (I think that was her name), Max and crew just haven't shown up anymore. These were some smart students that could've easily gotten another Spider-related book based off them.
    To be fair, who's gonna miss Sajani? .

    Silver Sable: I always found her an oddity in Spidey's world, but the Black Cat stand in was pretty fun. Shame that she couldn't get her own mercenary type book as I think she actually can carry a title.
    Sable might return once Chameleon's story continues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Most likely, they'll bring him back to kill him off. Similar to how Slott killed Ashley Kafka, a JMD creation he had used in a number of titles but had fallen by the wayside and Slott brought her back just to kill her off. (Don't @me about her returning as a clone in Clone Conspiracy).

    Sometimes it's not a bad thing for supporting characters to be shelved and left standing. Not everything has to be harvested and mined. Skurge the Executioner had an iconic moment in Walt Simonson's run on The Mighty Thor and nobody has gone ahead and returned Skurge from Helheim.
    Bringing a character just to kill them off mostly sucks though, 'cause characters mostly have more potential by being alive, what did we get by killing off Kafka, outside of just having her killed? Basically nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    She's made a few sporadic appearances in stuff like the recent Elektra volume, Spider-Man/Deadpool, and even Amazing Mary Jane.

    She's sporting a new, anime-style, hairdo with twintails.
    Figures she'd do that lol.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 11-24-2020 at 06:53 PM.

  6. #156
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Anya just fought a few of Spidey's villains in her comics, Phil Hobgoblin and Ana were there too, Spidey even makes a comment about how she defeated Hobgoblin, 'cause while he made a super advanced stealth suit that can block sound to deal with his laugh that can paralyze people, all she did to deal with that was plug her ears lol.

    Also wouldn't say she was a major villain for Anya, Screwball showed up like twice, and only got some focus in one of the issues.
    This reminds me how Slott seemed to go out of his way to never give Peter a clear victory against Urich...granted, by then Slott would hardly let Peter win at all without a lot of help or him winning through a less than impressive showing.

    I'd say she was like Anya's Ultimate Shocker.
    To be fair, who's gonna miss Sajani? .
    Sajani is probably in the top 5 most unlikeable supporting characters, up there with Michelle. She's such a horrible person that she sabotages Peter's company and you don't even feel bad that she ends up getting fired for something she wasn't responsible for.
    Bringing a character just to kill them off mostly sucks though, 'cause characters mostly have more potential by being alive, what did we get by killing off Kafka, outside of just having her killed? Basically nothing.
    And it's not like Otto felt personally motivated by having Massacre kill her, just like nobody really cared about SpOck killing him in cold blood.

  7. #157
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    This reminds me how Slott seemed to go out of his way to never give Peter a clear victory against Urich...granted, by then Slott would hardly let Peter win at all without a lot of help or him winning through a less than impressive showing.

    I'd say she was like Anya's Ultimate Shocker.

    Sajani is probably in the top 5 most unlikeable supporting characters, up there with Michelle. She's such a horrible person that she sabotages Peter's company and you don't even feel bad that she ends up getting fired for something she wasn't responsible for.

    And it's not like Otto felt personally motivated by having Massacre kill her, just like nobody really cared about SpOck killing him in cold blood.
    And lets not get into charactherization problems, apparently the woman that tried to reform Carnage was scared of Massacre being her end and believe him to be beyond redemption.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
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  8. #158
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Bringing a character just to kill them off mostly sucks though, 'cause characters mostly have more potential by being alive, what did we get by killing off Kafka, outside of just having her killed? Basically nothing.
    Well Slott would say we got drama, conflict, stakes and other screenplay manual 101 justifications.

    I mean with Kafka back in Spencer's run and more or less being presented as if she never died, and Ravencroft having an elevated part in Spider-Lore thanks to those series, it just made it more gratuitous.

    Killing Kafka on Slott's part, and also killing Flash at the end of Go Down Swinging felt proprietary on Slott's part like he wanted to own and define these characters. I am not saying that other writers haven't killed off supporting characters that other writers created or so on, or that they haven't driven up stakes or that it's wrong it's just that the gratuitous way Slott did it, did feel like his way of planting flag and going mine. Because these characters didn't need to die. Quite obviously, Flash Thompson is gonna come back eventually. He was bonded to a Symbiote and so on, so there's an obvious way to bring him back.

    In the case of Dr. Kafka, she was a character JMD modeled on one of his real life friends Dr. Frayda Kafka, and she didn't like the concept of a character made in tribute to her being killed off (https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...-life-dr-kafka)

  9. #159
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    This reminds me how Slott seemed to go out of his way to never give Peter a clear victory against Urich...granted, by then Slott would hardly let Peter win at all without a lot of help or him winning through a less than impressive showing.
    To be fair, Spidey had the advantage most times, but Urich decided to run away a lot, Spidey even kept up well when fighting both Urich and Kingsley, before they both ran away lol.

    Honestly, it's a lot like Ditko's Green Goblin now that I think of it, but he was less annoying about that since he showed up less, and, y'know, Ditko Spidey completely outclasses Slott's in competence overall lol.

    Still though, funny that the powerless and less experienced Anya was closer to defeating Urich in issue#4 than Spidey in most times he fought Urich, and hell, Spidey even got in the way of her beating his ass lol.

    I'd say she was like Anya's Ultimate Shocker.
    I dunno, she did get a few licks on Anya, on the second fight, did Ultimate Shocker get that much?

    Honestly, only remember him because of the Ultimate game, was he as pathetic there as in the comics or somehow worse?

    Sajani is probably in the top 5 most unlikeable supporting characters, up there with Michelle. She's such a horrible person that she sabotages Peter's company and you don't even feel bad that she ends up getting fired for something she wasn't responsible for.
    I remember that PI era was the first of Slott's stuff I read, and when she was fired for stuff she didn't do, I thought "Man, I know she was kind of a bitch, but that's harsh", then I went back to other issues, found out she wasn't a new character from PI era and was being a bitch the whole time, and while I think that her being fired that fast was still harsh, I can really see why Peter did it lol.

    Honestly, characters like Sajani and Michelle makes it look like the writers were being inspired by Ditko era's supporting cast, and while there is a lot of things from that era that can be good to be inspired by, the supporting cast is the last thing you'd wanna copy the style, because to put it blunty, it's mostly horrible. Outside of JJ, and if you count a tertiary character, Foswel, most of the cast were a bunch of one dimensional, interchangeable assholes with no likable traits, and Sajani in particular is such a bitch she wouldn't be out of place in Ditko's era, and that's not a good thing.

    Then there's aunt May, who's the opposite of most of the cast when it comes to being an asshole, 'cause she's actually very nice, but no less obnoxious.

    And it's not like Otto felt personally motivated by having Massacre kill her, just like nobody really cared about SpOck killing him in cold blood.
    Yeah, her getting killed to motivate a character could work, even if half-assed, lazy, and overused, but the only character who cared about it was Ghost-Spidey (Get it? ), and nobody cares about that guy, so if instead of Kafka, it was only that random guard who got killed, it'd make no difference in the narration.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    And lets not get into charactherization problems, apparently the woman that tried to reform Carnage was scared of Massacre being her end and believe him to be beyond redemption.
    Ironically, this is the sanest Kafka ever looked, 'cause the lengths she went to try to help some people, it made me mentally scream "WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS WOMAN!" more than once, 'cause really, one could get the impression she was one step away from becoming a Harley Quinn, and I mean the good one, not the current one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well Slott would say we got drama, conflict, stakes and other screenplay manual 101 justifications.
    Well, "conflict" would happen anyways since Massacre kills people, "drama", she got killed like a random nobody, and characters reacted to her death like she's a random nobody, so whatever lol.

    I mean with Kafka back in Spencer's run and more or less being presented as if she never died, and Ravencroft having an elevated part in Spider-Lore thanks to those series, it just made it more gratuitous.
    About the only good thing about her death is that if it's mentioned, conversations go more or less like this:

    "- Wait didn't you die?

    - Yeah."

    Then they move on.

    Killing Kafka on Slott's part, and also killing Flash at the end of Go Down Swinging felt proprietary on Slott's part like he wanted to own and define these characters. I am not saying that other writers haven't killed off supporting characters that other writers created or so on, or that they haven't driven up stakes or that it's wrong it's just that the gratuitous way Slott did it, did feel like his way of planting flag and going mine. Because these characters didn't need to die. Quite obviously, Flash Thompson is gonna come back eventually. He was bonded to a Symbiote and so on, so there's an obvious way to bring him back.
    I don't see how Kafka's death would "define" anything, if you know who she is, then she randomly came back just to die, if you don't, she's just some extra Spidey apparently knew, but since she only has 5 seconds of screen time before being killed, it has no impact.

    At least Flash did some stuff before dying, even though he didn't even get a cool death, or useful death, he just arrived to tell Peter that the other characters are gonna live because he removed the symbiote shards, then Norman just kills him.

    So yeah, just another comic book death where the character dies for the sake of dying, instead of something cool or meaningul, and yeah, sure, real life has people dying in the most pointless and moronic ways every minute, but that really shouldn't be the case in comic books since all it does is make the cast smaller, and that's not a good thing.

    In the case of Dr. Kafka, she was a character JMD modeled on one of his real life friends Dr. Frayda Kafka, and she didn't like the concept of a character made in tribute to her being killed off (https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...-life-dr-kafka)
    "I know! Marc told me. Otherwise I wouldn’t know. I see him regularly, for over 20 years now—so when something new happens to Dr. Kafka, he lets me know."

    Well, considering that in the comics, her appearances are very scarce, to the point she wasn't around for 14 years until showing up in ASM#656, that's certainly not a subject they talk about much .

  10. #160
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Then there's aunt May, who's the opposite of most of the cast when it comes to being an asshole, 'cause she's actually very nice, but no less obnoxious.
    Let's not forget that Slott made Aunt May into an a----le and unlikeable too. He wanted to make her into a bigot early in his run, and then did it by making her prejudiced to Anna Maria Marconi. The BND era also ran with the idea that Aunt May and Mary Jane weren't close anymore and that part felt wrong and gratuitous to me, and just didn't ring right. May was friends with Mary Jane for years even after she and Peter broke up during the Wolfman era, and she supported MJ during the "separation" period of their marriage. It felt like people misread the entire character there.

    At least Flash did some stuff before dying, even though he didn't even get a cool death, or useful death, he just arrived to tell Peter that the other characters are gonna live because he removed the symbiote shards, then Norman just kills him.

    So yeah, just another comic book death where the character dies for the sake of dying, instead of something cool or meaningul, and yeah, sure, real life has people dying in the most pointless and moronic ways every minute, but that really shouldn't be the case in comic books since all it does is make the cast smaller, and that's not a good thing.
    Agreed.

    "I know! Marc told me. Otherwise I wouldn’t know. I see him regularly, for over 20 years now—so when something new happens to Dr. Kafka, he lets me know."
    It's weird to learn that JMD in real life goes by Marc, and that's what the M stands for. I honestly don't know he doesn't go by Marc DeMatteis, cause that'd be a dope handle.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Black Tarantula

    If DeFalco isn’t here, he more or less doesn’t exist.
    Yes, I'd assume Tom DeFalco, from his runs on AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, and SPIDER-GIRL.

  12. #162
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I dunno, she did get a few licks on Anya, on the second fight, did Ultimate Shocker get that much?

    Honestly, only remember him because of the Ultimate game, was he as pathetic there as in the comics or somehow worse?
    He did in his last appearance. It was supposed to subvert the whole "pathetic loser Spidey beats up in a few panels" stigma he had built up over the course of the run.

  13. #163
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    Okay, I got one.

    Mrs. Muggins.

    Peter Parker's landlady, as long as Pete had that apartment he once rented, from 1975, until 1988.

    Memories: Calling Pete a "pervert", after Spidey scared off Candi, Randi, and Bambi off the roof from sunbathing, and mentioning drunken husband "Barney" a few times, yet he never showed up on-page, until the end.

  14. #164
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    Okay, I got one.

    Mrs. Muggins.

    Peter Parker's landlady, as long as Pete had that apartment he once rented, from 1975, until 1988.

    Memories: Calling Pete a "pervert", after Spidey scared off Candi, Randi, and Bambi off the roof from sunbathing, and mentioning drunken husband "Barney" a few times, yet he never showed up on-page, until the end.
    A real harpy that one. She had a thought bubble implying MJ was some tramp because she had a key to Peter's apartment (which is code for "they totally do it" apparently back in the day).

    That Chelsea apartment (which is top real estate today, in the '80s it would have been on the cheaper side) is one of Peter's longest lodgings, occupying it from Conway's run to when Peter and MJ got married.

    Still, it's for the best that Mrs. Muggins doesn't show up. I think Paul Jenkins or someone in his style can do some kind of sad story about a nobody woman briefly touched by having Spider-Man involved and about the sadness of an old landlady and so on. But that'd be too depressing and so on.

    Speaking of which...whatever happened to Bambi, Randi, Candi anyway?

  15. #165
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Let's not forget that Slott made Aunt May into an a----le and unlikeable too.
    About Ditko aunt May though, her problem is the same as most of the supporting cast, constant, repetitive personality, "Spider-Man is awful", "Peter is fragile", "MY HEALTH!", this is most of her personality, and those traits are rather constant and aggressive, which sucks because Ditko made a tertiary character like Foswel feel 3-Dimensional (Even if he was still rather straight forward), plus aunt May had a cool moment in ASM#18, with her telling Peter that she won't give up because of her sickness, to not give up because things got rough, more moments like this, that make her look more like a person, could have helped her to be more likable and flexible, but unfortunately after that she went back to the same old thing.

    So at the very least, Ditko era aunt May still sucked, but it didn't seem to be intentional, and the ASM#18 moment was cool.

    This moment and its continuation in ASM#19, and the Master Planner Trilogy are also great reminders that Spider-Man stories can be more than just stories where life screws up Peter and he bitches about Parker Luck, 'cause uplifting shit is also important for super-heroes.

    He wanted to make her into a bigot early in his run, and then did it by making her prejudiced to Anna Maria Marconi.
    Yeah I remember that, it was weird, like maybe if aunt May never talked about those things it'd make sense, but she never had a problem with, well, anyone, and the grandchildren comment was so "generic old lady" lol.

    Also worth pointing out it's not just the children thing, since aunt May says this in Superior#22:

    https://i.imgur.com/Fzl8RWC.jpg

    'Cause really, seeing Anna Maria there and the first thing she mentions is diversity? Sheesh... Would be awkward enough if it stopped there, but then the dinner scene in Superior#23 happened:

    https://i.imgur.com/DTCBOpm.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/hmE0ZUX.jpg

    Too bad Slott decided to go with that, specially considering the dinner scene had her jealous of Anna Maria's better cooking skills, could've used that for some goofy awkwardness, but nah, had to go for the worst option.

    The BND era also ran with the idea that Aunt May and Mary Jane weren't close anymore and that part felt wrong and gratuitous to me, and just didn't ring right. May was friends with Mary Jane for years even after she and Peter broke up during the Wolfman era, and she supported MJ during the "separation" period of their marriage. It felt like people misread the entire character there.
    "Misreading characters" might as well be BND's tagline lol.

    It's weird to learn that JMD in real life goes by Marc, and that's what the M stands for. I honestly don't know he doesn't go by Marc DeMatteis, cause that'd be a dope handle.
    Might be a preference to separate his pen name from his real one, like prefering friends to call him "Marc".

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He did in his last appearance. It was supposed to subvert the whole "pathetic loser Spidey beats up in a few panels" stigma he had built up over the course of the run.
    Having that as his last appearance sounds nice, even if people will still mostly remember him for being a loser lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    Okay, I got one.

    Mrs. Muggins.

    Peter Parker's landlady, as long as Pete had that apartment he once rented, from 1975, until 1988.

    Memories: Calling Pete a "pervert", after Spidey scared off Candi, Randi, and Bambi off the roof from sunbathing, and mentioning drunken husband "Barney" a few times, yet he never showed up on-page, until the end.
    I remember that after Peter and MJ got married, he kissed her while drunk in Web of Spider-Man#38:

    https://i.imgur.com/ZkoDV5G.png

    https://i.imgur.com/nxI03ih.png

    He also fought the Macendale Hobgoblin while drunk, which became even funnier considering how much of a tryhard Macendale was, this is one of the funniest issues for me .

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    A real harpy that one. She had a thought bubble implying MJ was some tramp because she had a key to Peter's apartment (which is code for "they totally do it" apparently back in the day).

    That Chelsea apartment (which is top real estate today, in the '80s it would have been on the cheaper side) is one of Peter's longest lodgings, occupying it from Conway's run to when Peter and MJ got married.

    Still, it's for the best that Mrs. Muggins doesn't show up. I think Paul Jenkins or someone in his style can do some kind of sad story about a nobody woman briefly touched by having Spider-Man involved and about the sadness of an old landlady and so on. But that'd be too depressing and so on.
    I think it'd be more fitting to have a story where she thinks about Peter and not Spider-Man, 'cause as far as I remember, Spidey didn't cause a lot of problem to her, Peter is the one she considered a pain in the ass, so maybe a story where she thinks that while he was a pain in the ass, he was a good man, or somethin' like that.

    Speaking of which...whatever happened to Bambi, Randi, Candi anyway?
    Wiki says the last times they showed up were in Web#38, ASM#300, and ASM#326, and checking out here, they don't do much or are talked about in either issue.

    In Web#38, they're just in Peter's and MJ's moving out party:

    https://i.imgur.com/Suhix0k.png

    https://i.imgur.com/wWo888A.png

    https://i.imgur.com/noEMeQi.png

    In ASM#300 all they do is help Peter and MJ to move furniture:

    https://i.imgur.com/oxWewLH.png

    And in ASM#326, they were in a party MJ threw out, and wanted to play with baby Normie:

    https://i.imgur.com/eSXOVm2.jpg

    That's it, they might still be living in that apartment, being terrorized by super-heroes while trying to sunbathe .

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