What would a Spider-Man HOX-POX look like?

[Hcmarvel]

Not literally - I don't mean what would a story where Spider-Man moves to an island and starts his own Spider-People nation look like - but I mean what would a overhaul of the "line" look like? Could it ever be done? Does it need to be done? I know a lot of people here are fans of what Nick Spencer is doing but it'd be hard to argue it's generating the excitement of what's going on with HoxPox or Immortal Hulk for that matter.

I guess Brand New Day is the closest equivalent but I wonder if we could ever get to a point where Miles Morales, Spider-Gwen, and Peter Parker all get relaunched as a cohesive unit with a real direction to each book. I'm not sure it's needed but I'm just curious if the success of the Hickman X-Men is going to inspire Marvel to try something similar with their flagship character. Or is Spider-Man inherently a more conservative property?

[Mister Mets]

One of the big reveals in House of X was that Moira Mactaggert has lived several lives, and remembers them all, taking the X-Men in a radically different direction reveal.

One potential reveal for Spider-Man isn't the only time he made a deal with Mephisto (or whoever else) to reset reality.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

If by Spider-Man HOX/POX you mean when the entire line of Spider-Man titles co-ordinates itself around a single team to tell one story every consecutive week...yeah that's been done.

In the old villages, the rural folk call it by the name of...KRAVEN'S LAST HUNT.

In 1987, editor Jim Salicrup decided to make every Spider-Man title at the time (ASM, Spectacular, Web of Spider-Man) cancel all its stories to give space to DeMatteis to tell a single ongoing that took place across all titles. The first-ever Spider-Man crossover.

It was also a big ambitious tale of the kind never before done in Spider-Man and Marvel in general. As Tom Defalco said, the first Spider-Man story with an adult sensibility. Basically in two-months of 1987, every week you got one issue of KLH consecutively released, just like HoX/PoX was.

I know a lot of people here are fans of what Nick Spencer is doing but it'd be hard to argue it's generating the excitement of what's going on with HoxPox or Immortal Hulk for that matter.

Spider-Man is Marvel's most consistent title. More great runs and more great stories in Amazing Spider-Man(and satellites) than any other Marvel title. What that means is that writers have fewer avenues to redraw, remap and radically overturn the titles than you would with titles that had become moribund (Hulk) or subject to company politics (X-Men).

Frank Miller made a big name by reordering Daredevil radically. He would never have been able to, or allowed to, do anything remotely like that with Spider-Man because a) the title was consistent, b) sold well, c) wouldn't justify anything that radical.

I'm not sure it's needed but I'm just curious if the success of the Hickman X-Men is going to inspire Marvel to try something similar with their flagship character.

HoX/PoX and Hickman's entire X-Men relaunch is something you can only do in the mutant corner and not anything you can export to any place else, and people at Marvel know that.

The success of Hickman's X-Men also depends on a host of factors. First and foremost, Hickman himself, a proven seller of big ideas and detailed stories. Then it was the hook of the "putting the band back to together" of doing a real X-Men story without limits for the first since before House of M.

Or is Spider-Man inherently a more conservative property?

All superhero titles at Marvel are "inherently more conservative" as properties because these are corporate owned IP.

In the case of Spider-Man, it's certainly true that he's more conservative as a title since 2007 than he used to be. Stan Lee did the Drug Trilogy in Spider-Man, a two-part story condemning white supremacy in Spider-Man. Conway whacked Gwen Stacy of course in the pages of Spider-Man, then the entire Symbiotes was launched in the pages of Spider-Man, Spider-Man got married and stayed married for 20 years.

Spider-Man grew up, changed and grew. Then came the dark times, the time of BND...

So Spider-Man isn't "inherently" Marvel's most conservative title. Some of the most radical stories in Marvel history happened in the pages of Spider-Man. Many of Marvel's best writers -- Conway, Roger Stern, Tom Defalco, David Michelinie, J. Michael Straczynski, Matt Fraction, Chip Zdarsky first made their mark in Marvel by writing on Spider-Man.

Spider-Man is an institution, goddamnit. Against Spider-Man, such titles as Iron Man, are so much palaver.

[Hcmarvel]

If by Spider-Man HOX/POX you mean when the entire line of Spider-Man titles co-ordinates itself around a single team to tell one story every consecutive week...yeah that's been done.

In the old villages, the rural folk call it by the name of...KRAVEN'S LAST HUNT.

Uh, that's not really what I meant. KLH is a crossover, one of the first of its kind (Mutant Massacre precedes it but in terms of one creative team taking over the books for an arc KLH might be the first to do that). But KLH did not redefine the property. And Dematteis didn't stay on the books to tell stories about Peter's new status quo (cause he didn't have one) and over see a rebranding of the line across ASM, PPSM, and WOSM. I mean, Spider-Man had just gotten married, and it was right before McFarlane joined ASM and Conway returned on PPSM but it wasn't like Marvel saw that time as a whole new era for Spider-Man. All the series just carried on like usual after KLH.

The closes thing to what I'm talking about Marvel has done with Spider-Man is how they relaunched the books after The Gathering of Five with Chapter One and the Byrne/Mackie books. Now those were...a disaster. And then of course Brand New Day which was a top to bottom rebranding and reframing of the character but I think that one also mostly failed. Eventually some good stories came out of the post-BND era (Unscheduled Stop, parts of The Gauntlet, Grim Hunt, Spider-Island of course) but by then some of the shine had come off the book following OMD, BND, and OMIT.

Spider-Man is Marvel's most consistent title. More great runs and more great stories in Amazing Spider-Man(and satellites) than any other Marvel title. What that means is that writers have fewer avenues to redraw, remap and radically overturn the titles than you would with titles that had become moribund (Hulk) or subject to company politics (X-Men). Frank Miller made a big name by reordering Daredevil radically. He would never have been able to, or allowed to, do anything remotely like that with Spider-Man because a) the title was consistent, b) sold well, c) wouldn't justify anything that radical.

Right but what I'm saying is - I think some could argue Spider-Man has been moribund and maybe could justify some radical changes. Spencer's run is aggressively fine but it's not exciting people the way Immortal Hulk or HoxPox is. For a better example maybe, think of how the Batman books rebranded themselves after No Man's Land or the Superman books when Loeb and Kelly joined. Those are much less "radical" examples but my question is, could Spider-Man maybe use something like that?

In the case of Spider-Man, it's certainly true that he's more conservative as a title since 2007 than he used to be. Stan Lee did the Drug Trilogy in Spider-Man, a two-part story condemning white supremacy in Spider-Man. Conway whacked Gwen Stacy of course in the pages of Spider-Man, then the entire Symbiotes was launched in the pages of Spider-Man, Spider-Man got married and stayed married for 20 years.

That's not really what I meant by conservative. I didn't mean politically per se, though there is always room for the Spidey books to explore those themes more than they do (I thought Spencer's Sin-Eater arc played with some interesting and relevant ideas actually) - but I meant conservative in terms of being afraid of change. I think the closest example I can think of is when JMS came in and played with the Totem idea. It wasn't my favorite part of his run, but it was new, and a fresh perspective on Spider-Man's origins. And then there is always Superior Spider-Man but that was a really good idea, stretched to its utmost limit, that was always going to just be a temporary story arc.

I dunno, I don't have any answer to this. I just see what Hickman and Ewing are doing on their books and then look at Spider-Man (and the Avengers under Jason Aaron) and it makes me wonder if there isn't more that could be done to energize those properties. But I worry that Amazing Spider-Man is too consistent a seller, and as a property too committed to a certain formula, to ever achieve the heights some other franchises are seeing these days.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Uh, that's not really what I meant.

Well you said HoX/PoX and that means a lot of things. To me HoX/PoX was a story you could follow week-by-week, and that was how KLH was rolled out.

Right but what I'm saying is - I think some could argue Spider-Man has been moribund and maybe could justify some radical changes. Spencer's run is aggressively fine but it's not exciting people the way Immortal Hulk or HoxPox is.

It's #1 in comics right now.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/top-...-october-2020/

Those are much less "radical" examples but my question is, could Spider-Man maybe use something like that?

The question is why does this define your yardstick?

I just see what Hickman and Ewing are doing on their books and then look at Spider-Man (and the Avengers under Jason Aaron) and it makes me wonder if there isn't more that could be done to energize those properties.

Well it's #1 right now. Unless there's a higher number than 1 in a ranking system...I'm not sure how much better it could be.

I think you are looking for "buzz" and "water cooler" chatter and there does seem to be less around ASM than in the case of Hickman and Immortal Hulk, but I am not certain if that's because Spider-Man is bad or that those other titles needed a "win" and people are celebrating right now. Last week you had the long-awaited crossover The King in Black...but what really dominated buzz and chatter and a run on market for new titles is Chip Zdarsky's Daredevil #25.

But I worry that Amazing Spider-Man is too consistent a seller, and as a property too committed to a certain formula, to ever achieve the heights some other franchises are seeing these days.

That might be true...but I don't think you can measure success by a single yardstick or compare a team book to something revolving around a single protagonist.

[Snoop Dogg]

HoxPox and Immortal Hulk are exciting new concepts brimming with potential while Spencer Spider-Man is him back in college going through sequels to old stories. It is a title where the new revolves around the old, books should be the other way around.

If you want to do a story like HoxPox to set up an ambitious Spider-Man run, the key is to not spend that much time on Spider-Man and spend most of it on the villains and supporting cast, setting up their things that will affect Spider-Man later.

[Frontier]

I don't think the Hickman approach is really needed for Spider-Man.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't think the Hickman approach is really needed for Spider-Man.

Hickman likes doing group and team stories rather than individual stories. He's a teams-guy. So it's hard to bring that to Spider-Man which is the story of an individual.

Spider-Man is the story of a guy in New York City who patrols a few blocks of that. Ideas like Kadashev Scale and so on are hard to incorporate in a genre like that.

A writer like Christopher Cantwell who when he's working on Doctor Doom or his current Iron Man run likes taking larger than life characters and bringing them down to earth is probably the nearest you can do with Spider-Man and big ideas in this setting.

[Frontier]

Hickman likes doing group and team stories rather than individual stories. He's a teams-guy. So it's hard to bring that to Spider-Man which is the story of an individual.

Spider-Man is the story of a guy in New York City who patrols a few blocks of that. Ideas like Kadashev Scale and so on are hard to incorporate in a genre like that.

A writer like Christopher Cantwell who when he's working on Doctor Doom or his current Iron Man run likes taking larger than life characters and bringing them down to earth is probably the nearest you can do with Spider-Man and big ideas in this setting.

I don't think Hickman would be a good fit for Spider-Man on a lot of levels. Of that whole group writing project thing he probably had the weakest Peter voice of the lot.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't think Hickman would be a good fit for Spider-Man on a lot of levels. Of that whole group writing project thing he probably had the weakest Peter voice of the lot.

He did okay with Spider-Man in the Future Foundation books, and that hilarious dark comic about Johnny Storm being a d--k to him by crashing his place. And he wrote him respectfully in SECRET WARS 2015 main event.

Hickman seems to have been miffed that when he wrote his Avengers run, he had to deal with Superior Spider-Man rather than the regular one:
(https://aiptcomics.com/2020/12/07/x-...athan-hickman/)

"When I was writing Avengers, I was working from a tight outline. I pretty much knew where I was headed the entire run. Not everyone works that way, and it would be unreasonable for there to be an expectation that everyone work that way, but I do. None of that changes the fact that one day I woke up and had to deal with Old Man Steve Rogers, Superior Spider-Man, Unworthy Thor, and Iron Man a billion miles away from Earth in Guardians."

[Frontier]

He did okay with Spider-Man in the Future Foundation books, and that hilarious dark comic about Johnny Storm being a d--k to him by crashing his place. And he wrote him respectfully in SECRET WARS 2015 main event.

Hickman seems to have been miffed that when he wrote his Avengers run, he had to deal with Superior Spider-Man rather than the regular one:
(https://aiptcomics.com/2020/12/07/x-...athan-hickman/)

"When I was writing Avengers, I was working from a tight outline. I pretty much knew where I was headed the entire run. Not everyone works that way, and it would be unreasonable for there to be an expectation that everyone work that way, but I do. None of that changes the fact that one day I woke up and had to deal with Old Man Steve Rogers, Superior Spider-Man, Unworthy Thor, and Iron Man a billion miles away from Earth in Guardians."

I think in a supporting role he's fine with Peter, but I don't really see him as the type to write a story with Peter as a leading man.

[Vordan]

Hickman likes doing group and team stories rather than individual stories. He's a teams-guy. So it's hard to bring that to Spider-Man which is the story of an individual.

Spider-Man is the story of a guy in New York City who patrols a few blocks of that. Ideas like Kadashev Scale and so on are hard to incorporate in a genre like that.

A writer like Christopher Cantwell who when he's working on Doctor Doom or his current Iron Man run likes taking larger than life characters and bringing them down to earth is probably the nearest you can do with Spider-Man and big ideas in this setting.

He’s actually said the opposite, that he’d like to do more work on solo characters. Dunno if there’s any at Marvel he’d be interested in touching since X-Men was the last Marvel property he was a fan of with the rest being DC’s teams/characters.

[Frontier]

He’s actually said the opposite, that he’d like to do more work on solo characters. Dunno if there’s any at Marvel he’d be interested in touching since X-Men was the last Marvel property he was a fan of with the rest being DC’s teams/characters.

Dr. Strange, maybe?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

He’s actually said the opposite, that he’d like to do more work on solo characters.

Interesting.

Dunno if there’s any at Marvel he’d be interested in touching since X-Men was the last Marvel property he was a fan of with the rest being DC’s teams/characters.

Maybe Hickman does have some cool Spider-Man stories to tell, who knows.

[Frontier]

Interesting.



Maybe Hickman does have some cool Spider-Man stories to tell, who knows.

Maybe Hickman would treat writing Spider-Man as a break .