View Poll Results: Marvel Earth v Krakoa

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  • Marvel Earth

    50 68.49%
  • Krajoa

    23 31.51%
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  1. #76
    Fantastic Member Outburstz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixThanos View Post
    Has this happened though ?
    Shogo. Jubliee's adoptive kid is a human.

    Also in Deadpool when he came to Krakoa Emma clearly said he could visit through the proper channels
    Last edited by Outburstz; 11-29-2020 at 12:36 PM.

  2. #77
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You can't blame the British for that.
    Don't know. I noticed most British authors really pursue a goddamned uber-cynical nihilist depiction of superheroes, but of course is not all of them and in some case is youthful works not reflective of their more mature view of the world.
    Still, is a fact that some of most "edgy" stuff seem to completely forget what the word "hero" means.

  3. #78
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And the Avengers don't always agree with their government but that doesn't stop X-fans calling them jackbooted thugs any chance they get.
    Very true. That seems to be the default attitude towards the Avengers and a keep-out-of-our-affairs approach to other heroes.

    We've seen Avengers and X-Men work together in the past and at the end of AvX, we had an attempt to have both groups work closer ogether.

    But that doesn't fit the narrative of Avengers vs X-Men that the X-writers seem to thrive on.

  4. #79
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Very true. That seems to be the default attitude towards the Avengers and a keep-out-of-our-affairs approach to other heroes.

    We've seen Avengers and X-Men work together in the past and at the end of AvX, we had an attempt to have both groups work closer ogether.

    But that doesn't fit the narrative of Avengers vs X-Men that the X-writers seem to thrive on.
    Technically, it's not so much Avengers vs. X-Men as it is human society, as defended by the Avengers, vs. mutants, as championed by the X-Men. There would be less animosity between the two teams overall if the larger sociocultural elements they represent weren't so violently opposed to each other, with human society generally denying mutants' personhood and right to even exist and mutants, therefore alienated from humanity, in turn rejecting their society. To me, the core of the issue is that human society, through its authorities and institutions, violates the rights of people whom, regardless of their genetics, are still citizens (until Krakoa, in any case) and human beings on a routine basis and when the X-Men stand up for those same people, they end up criminalized and demonized by that same society.

    On the flipside, heroes like the Avengers, who've come together as defenders of Earth and its people from various threats, somehow cannot bring themselves to openly speak out against those violations and push back against the normalized, if not institutionalized, hatred of mutants, many of whom the Avengers and others have fought beside often enough to recognize as fellow heroes. I do agree to a point that the Avengers and the X-Men should work together, especially given events like Civil War that have shown it wouldn't take much for humankind to turn on nonmutant superhumans as well, though I don't think that's going to happen without willingness to accept culpability on both sides for how the situation has deteriorated, even with my belief that one side may have somewhat greater culpability, insofar as standing idly by while anti-mutant vaccines were being mainstreamed into law.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #80
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Technically, it's not so much Avengers vs. X-Men as it is human society, as defended by the Avengers, vs. mutants, as championed by the X-Men. There would be less animosity between the two teams overall if the larger sociocultural elements they represent weren't so violently opposed to each other, with human society generally denying mutants' personhood and right to even exist and mutants, therefore alienated from humanity, in turn rejecting their society. To me, the core of the issue is that human society, through its authorities and institutions, violates the rights of people whom, regardless of their genetics, are still citizens (until Krakoa, in any case) and human beings on a routine basis and when the X-Men stand up for those same people, they end up criminalized and demonized by that same society.

    On the flipside, heroes like the Avengers, who've come together as defenders of Earth and its people from various threats, somehow cannot bring themselves to openly speak out against those violations and push back against the normalized, if not institutionalized, hatred of mutants, many of whom the Avengers and others have fought beside often enough to recognize as fellow heroes. I do agree to a point that the Avengers and the X-Men should work together, especially given events like Civil War that have shown it wouldn't take much for humankind to turn on nonmutant superhumans as well, though I don't think that's going to happen without willingness to accept culpability on both sides for how the situation has deteriorated, even with my belief that one side may have somewhat greater culpability, insofar as standing idly by while anti-mutant vaccines were being mainstreamed into law.
    In general yes but specifically when the Avengers and X-Men interact specifically in an X-book, the Avengers will often be portrayed as agents of an anti-mutant gov'.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    Don't know. I noticed most British authors really pursue a goddamned uber-cynical nihilist depiction of superheroes, but of course is not all of them and in some case is youthful works not reflective of their more mature view of the world.
    Still, is a fact that some of most "edgy" stuff seem to completely forget what the word "hero" means.
    This didn't start with British writers. Frank Miller depicted Batman as being more ruthless and mentally imbalanced in The Dark Knight Rises. American comic writers frequently portrayed the heroes as being more angry and violent than before. The British writers didn't start this trend. If anything they just followed it.

  7. #82
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    In general yes but specifically when the Avengers and X-Men interact specifically in an X-book, the Avengers will often be portrayed as agents of an anti-mutant gov'.
    Which they shouldn't be, but that impression is somewhat easy to come by given all the times the Avengers have worked with --- not necessarily for --- the same government that will then turn around and sic Sentinels and other tools of genocide on mutants. However, they can't really say that now, given that as of Jason Aaron's run, the Avengers have made it clear that they aren't aligned with any government, particularly not the U.S. government --- which may have not-so-coincidentally set off a global arms race for superpowered teams. At the very least, if the X-Men need a U.S. government-sponsored hero team to antagonize them, there's always the Squadron Supreme of America.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #83
    Incredible Member PhoenixThanos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    Shogo. Jubliee's adoptive kid is a human.

    Also in Deadpool when he came to Krakoa Emma clearly said he could visit through the proper channels
    Seriously ?, a human thats currently a dragon but still Jubilees child, c'mon that doesn't count.
    I enjoy anything Marvel cosmic, especially Thanos or Dark Phoenix related, loved the original Uncanny Avengers series.

    (Marvel/DC fan for 42+ years)

  9. #84
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Which they shouldn't be, but that impression is somewhat easy to come by given all the times the Avengers have worked with --- not necessarily for --- the same government that will then turn around and sic Sentinels and other tools of genocide on mutants. However, they can't really say that now, given that as of Jason Aaron's run, the Avengers have made it clear that they aren't aligned with any government, particularly not the U.S. government --- which may have not-so-coincidentally set off a global arms race for superpowered teams. At the very least, if the X-Men need a U.S. government-sponsored hero team to antagonize them, there's always the Squadron Supreme of America.
    The U.S. gov't isn't one entity and mutants(including X-Men) have worked for and with the gov't as well.

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Which they shouldn't be, but that impression is somewhat easy to come by given all the times the Avengers have worked with --- not necessarily for --- the same government that will then turn around and sic Sentinels and other tools of genocide on mutants. However, they can't really say that now, given that as of Jason Aaron's run, the Avengers have made it clear that they aren't aligned with any government, particularly not the U.S. government --- which may have not-so-coincidentally set off a global arms race for superpowered teams. At the very least, if the X-Men need a U.S. government-sponsored hero team to antagonize them, there's always the Squadron Supreme of America.
    Yep and also look who started that abd made it clear the Avengers aren't aligned with that. T'Challa, the Black Panther, Ontop of him forming the Agents of Wakanda to replace shield, and the fact that Wakanda is more involved because of it.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Technically, it's not so much Avengers vs. X-Men as it is human society, as defended by the Avengers, vs. mutants, as championed by the X-Men. There would be less animosity between the two teams overall if the larger sociocultural elements they represent weren't so violently opposed to each other, with human society generally denying mutants' personhood and right to even exist and mutants, therefore alienated from humanity, in turn rejecting their society. To me, the core of the issue is that human society, through its authorities and institutions, violates the rights of people whom, regardless of their genetics, are still citizens (until Krakoa, in any case) and human beings on a routine basis and when the X-Men stand up for those same people, they end up criminalized and demonized by that same society.
    Wrong, both teams are supposed to protect everyone, not strictly mutants for humans and the only team who's gone out of their way to choose one to choose one over the other the last few years was the X-men. There was less animosity because of the writers dictating it, they didn't always be at each others throats like that and it's not like the Avengers were the only ones who had problems being terrible to other teams like the X-men. Human society is made of numerous groups, some good and bad - just like mutant kind yet the X-men welcome racists and genocidal nazis with open arms in Krakoa. Their lex standards hen it comes to mutants harming other mutants is incredibly hypocritical and is not addressed by Krkaoa, instead we're supposed to gloss over their histories when it came to murder, torture and brainwashing when done to nameless mutants and the X-men themselves. Rather than cut Emma loose for what she did in New Tien she was given multiple chances and promoted to authority in governments, corporations and the X-men. Generalising humanity as a whole is wrong, it's like condemning all of mutant kind for the various super-villains in mutant kind. It's not like all of humanity are devout Purifiers.

    On the flipside, heroes like the Avengers, who've come together as defenders of Earth and its people from various threats, somehow cannot bring themselves to openly speak out against those violations and push back against the normalized, if not institutionalized, hatred of mutants, many of whom the Avengers and others have fought beside often enough to recognize as fellow heroes. I do agree to a point that the Avengers and the X-Men should work together, especially given events like Civil War that have shown it wouldn't take much for humankind to turn on nonmutant superhumans as well, though I don't think that's going to happen without willingness to accept culpability on both sides for how the situation has deteriorated, even with my belief that one side may have somewhat greater culpability, insofar as standing idly by while anti-mutant vaccines were being mainstreamed into law.
    This ignores the fact how the super-hero community is friendly to mutants, many teams have mutant members for instance and that the reason it's not a driving force is mainly due to things outside their control, like Marvel editorial. It's why the X-men don't react when Kang shows up to fight the Avengers but nobody's giving the X-men a hard time over that. Except your ignoring that many X-men themselves have worked with the government, on multiple occasions. They even had a professional relationship with O*N*E, post-M-Day. Once again, where where the X-men during Civil War? Because if we're going by what the comics tell us rather then looking at editorial, there's a strong case that the X-men don't care that non-mutants get put in concentration camps and they've proven they're ok working with people who harm their own people with re-education camps, like in X-men: Blue. But the main reason mutant kind is being affected by racism and oppression is because they're symbolic of actual groups in the rural world who face this injustice, and marvel's not going to stop that since there's too much money on the line, the X-fans eat it up since its socially relevant and nobody has found the cure for racism in the real world. It is completely wrong to blame the Avengers for 616's social ills since they're not activists, and neither are the X-men. The X-men's solution to things like racism in Marvel is shooting their opponents with laser beams, not addressing social problems with culture in the courts, activism or government. And the Avengers don't even accept it, they hate mutant racism. What do you want the Avengers to do when bad things are being made by Marvel's congress? And why aren't the X-men doing it themselves? It's not like they're helpless, they have numerous incredibly wealthy people in their ranks as well as corporations and government contacts, prior to krakoa.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 11-30-2020 at 04:07 AM.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixThanos View Post
    Yet it is okay to deny non mutants entry to Krakoa ?, now Franklin Richards is no longer a mutant, Charles Xavier stated to him that he is longer welcome on Krakoa, such rascism towards non mutants.
    Who knows how long they have had that info, and how does he tell him through a telepathic message. This is like a breaking up over a text message.

  13. #88
    Fantastic Member Outburstz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixThanos View Post
    Seriously ?, a human thats currently a dragon but still Jubilees child, c'mon that doesn't count.
    He can only turn into a dragon in otherworld it doesn't work on earth. That is something that was explained in Excalibur

  14. #89
    Incredible Member PhoenixThanos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    He can only turn into a dragon in otherworld it doesn't work on earth. That is something that was explained in Excalibur
    Still it is Jubilees child, every other human has been escorted off of Krakoa, humans are not welcome there. As soon as a human it detected the mutants defences go up and a group always goes to investigate.
    Krakoa is for mutants only and it is blatantly obvious under Xaviers supervision.
    I enjoy anything Marvel cosmic, especially Thanos or Dark Phoenix related, loved the original Uncanny Avengers series.

    (Marvel/DC fan for 42+ years)

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Spidey isn't a real Avenger anyway. He doesn't count.
    Spider-Man has been an Avengers reservist if not active member since the early 90's.

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