View Poll Results: Marvel Earth v Krakoa

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  • Marvel Earth

    50 68.49%
  • Krajoa

    23 31.51%
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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    Spider-Man has been an Avengers reservist if not active member since the early 90's.
    Yeah, still doesn't count.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Wrong, both teams are supposed to protect everyone, not strictly mutants for humans and the only team who's gone out of their way to choose one to choose one over the other the last few years was the X-men. There was less animosity because of the writers dictating it, they didn't always be at each others throats like that and it's not like the Avengers were the only ones who had problems being terrible to other teams like the X-men. Human society is made of numerous groups, some good and bad - just like mutant kind yet the X-men welcome racists and genocidal nazis with open arms in Krakoa. Their lex standards hen it comes to mutants harming other mutants is incredibly hypocritical and is not addressed by Krkaoa, instead we're supposed to gloss over their histories when it came to murder, torture and brainwashing when done to nameless mutants and the X-men themselves. Rather than cut Emma loose for what she did in New Tien she was given multiple chances and promoted to authority in governments, corporations and the X-men. Generalising humanity as a whole is wrong, it's like condemning all of mutant kind for the various super-villains in mutant kind. It's not like all of humanity are devout Purifiers.



    This ignores the fact how the super-hero community is friendly to mutants, many teams have mutant members for instance and that the reason it's not a driving force is mainly due to things outside their control, like Marvel editorial. It's why the X-men don't react when Kang shows up to fight the Avengers but nobody's giving the X-men a hard time over that. Except your ignoring that many X-men themselves have worked with the government, on multiple occasions. They even had a professional relationship with O*N*E, post-M-Day. Once again, where where the X-men during Civil War? Because if we're going by what the comics tell us rather then looking at editorial, there's a strong case that the X-men don't care that non-mutants get put in concentration camps and they've proven they're ok working with people who harm their own people with re-education camps, like in X-men: Blue. But the main reason mutant kind is being affected by racism and oppression is because they're symbolic of actual groups in the rural world who face this injustice, and marvel's not going to stop that since there's too much money on the line, the X-fans eat it up since its socially relevant and nobody has found the cure for racism in the real world. It is completely wrong to blame the Avengers for 616's social ills since they're not activists, and neither are the X-men. The X-men's solution to things like racism in Marvel is shooting their opponents with laser beams, not addressing social problems with culture in the courts, activism or government. And the Avengers don't even accept it, they hate mutant racism. What do you want the Avengers to do when bad things are being made by Marvel's congress? And why aren't the X-men doing it themselves? It's not like they're helpless, they have numerous incredibly wealthy people in their ranks as well as corporations and government contacts, prior to krakoa.
    Interesting and valid points, I'll admit. The real problem, as I see it, is that we don't see more humans pushing back against anti-mutant bigots in the comics themselves, and the ones who do are almost islands unto themselves because the common portrayal throughout the comics is that at best, most humans are apathetic or indifferent toward mutants and at worst, they silently or tacitly support anti-mutant bigotry. On the other hand, you do raise an important issue about accountability on the part of mutants for checking or otherwise curbing their more criminal/terroristic/villainous elements, even if those alliances are portrayed as acts of desperation in the face of continued failure to win human hearts and minds through standard heroics.

    As for the issue of the superhero community and its relationship with mutants, it's true the superhero community is far more amenable to mutants' rights than the general public in-universe, given that the Avengers have had mutant members for a long time (barring certain retcons), though at the same time, with the exception of the Avengers Unity Squad, there's hardly been an in-universe moment or movement to actively leverage the comparatively greater respect and trust the likes of the Avengers or the Fantastic Four enjoy from the general public into advocacy for better treatment of mutants. Finally, to answer your point that superheroes should protect everyone in the world, galaxy, and/or universe, that's also true, although I would add that everyone should mean everyone, including those commonly disfavored or marginalized within the established power structures, which would in-universe encompass mutants, who have been constantly subjected to violent, sometimes even genocidal oppression by those same power structures.
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  3. #93
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Spider-Man was on the Avengers for over a decade in 616 officially, not to mention getting inducted in MCU's Infinity War, old readers might not like it, but to younger fans, recognize Spidey's been tied to the Avengers for over 20 some years. Not even debateable at this point.
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah, still doesn't count.

    This makes zeros sense he has been on multiple Avenger teams even founded a couple of them and has years of service time.

  5. #95
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageturner View Post
    This makes zeros sense he has been on multiple Avenger teams even founded a couple of them and has years of service time.
    it's an old school rationality. He wasn't on the Avengers in the 60s thus can't be part of the team, despite many iconic members joining the team much later. Pre-2004 if you wanted to say Spider-Man wasn't an Avenger you'd have a better argument, but in 2020 you cna't objectively deny that he's an Avenger
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Interesting and valid points, I'll admit. The real problem, as I see it, is that we don't see more humans pushing back against anti-mutant bigots in the comics themselves, and the ones who do are almost islands unto themselves because the common portrayal throughout the comics is that at best, most humans are apathetic or indifferent toward mutants and at worst, they silently or tacitly support anti-mutant bigotry. On the other hand, you do raise an important issue about accountability on the part of mutants for checking or otherwise curbing their more criminal/terroristic/villainous elements, even if those alliances are portrayed as acts of desperation in the face of continued failure to win human hearts and minds through standard heroics.
    Because that's not in their control, that's with editorial and they have their own themes to contend with. It's why we don't see the X-men spent the majority other time fighting bank robbers.This is the problem with mutant kind being relegated to the X-books , so they get all the mutant bigots and everyone else is living their lives and it's not like other people don't have their own prejudices to fight - it's not like the X-men are fighting white supremacists in their own books, it's exclusively anti-mutant prejudice. We don't know what most humans think of mutants since it doesn't come up too often outside the X-books, lack of evidence isn't necessarily evidence in itself and it's like that because of the writers not acknowledging subjects and the mutants aren't unique in that. It's not like humans speak up that much about how they feel about Atlantis, or the Inhumans. There's only so much writers can go in every comic, as well. X-men's relationship with Emma isn't about desperation but she will cling to that any chance she gets against anyone who disagrees with her and the alliances with Magneto are inconsistent and ever changing, not static. They didn't welcome Joseph to the X-men because they were desperate, in fact Rogue had to hard sell them on him to let him have a chance to gain their respect and Magneto's shadow followed him everywhere. Desperation in itself is a recipe for disaster for making alliances, unless its temporary, since desperation causes people to make rash decisions and their villains, more often than not, are scorpions not frogs.

    As for the issue of the superhero community and its relationship with mutants, it's true the superhero community is far more amenable to mutants' rights than the general public in-universe, given that the Avengers have had mutant members for a long time (barring certain retcons), though at the same time, with the exception of the Avengers Unity Squad, there's hardly been an in-universe moment or movement to actively leverage the comparatively greater respect and trust the likes of the Avengers or the Fantastic Four enjoy from the general public into advocacy for better treatment of mutants. Finally, to answer your point that superheroes should protect everyone in the world, galaxy, and/or universe, that's also true, although I would add that everyone should mean everyone, including those commonly disfavored or marginalized within the established power structures, which would in-universe encompass mutants, who have been constantly subjected to violent, sometimes even genocidal oppression by those same power structures.
    Because the writers in Avengers titles were never allowed to, just like Reed isn't allowed to change Marvel's culture with his absurd technology, they want to maintain a certain status quo and they need the mutants to be oppressed or the X-titles get canceled due to being irrelevant and tone deaf since they're proxies for real world marginalised groups. It's why the X-men were allowed to stay in their mansion without worry of the FBI breaking down their door because they're known wanted criminals and are terrible at hiding, short of their Australian adventure. Political advocacy for mutants even in the X-books has never been so up front with real world problem solving, it's moved closer to this since Bendis but even then it was still occupied with super-heroes fighting super-villains and prioritising violence over things like advocacy work and activism. The time they did try this with Jean got sabotaged by Cassandra Nova and the readers got bored, while X-men: Blue got several volumes. Except they do, the Avengers fight for everyone but they're a super-hero team not an activist group. They also regularly bump heads with governments when under their mandate, alone and as a group, when the government is doing bad things and wants them to do their dirty work so they're not reluctantly going to accept orders to cull mutants in New York City because Henry Gyrich says so. Once again, the reason they do don't that is due to things outside their control, editorial. Hickman is doing things in X-men most writers dream about, and he's still in a bubble and Marvel isn't going to let other writers override things too much in their own corners. The problem is even if the Avengers did what you're asking they wouldn't change anything about mutants being oppressed, since that's a writing and marketing selling point - not an actual thing Marvel want to solve for obvious reasons. That's why the X-men only fail.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Because that's not in their control, that's with editorial and they have their own themes to contend with. It's why we don't see the X-men spent the majority other time fighting bank robbers.This is the problem with mutant kind being relegated to the X-books , so they get all the mutant bigots and everyone else is living their lives and it's not like other people don't have their own prejudices to fight - it's not like the X-men are fighting white supremacists in their own books, it's exclusively anti-mutant prejudice. We don't know what most humans think of mutants since it doesn't come up too often outside the X-books, lack of evidence isn't necessarily evidence in itself and it's like that because of the writers not acknowledging subjects and the mutants aren't unique in that. It's not like humans speak up that much about how they feel about Atlantis, or the Inhumans. There's only so much writers can go in every comic, as well. X-men's relationship with Emma isn't about desperation but she will cling to that any chance she gets against anyone who disagrees with her and the alliances with Magneto are inconsistent and ever changing, not static. They didn't welcome Joseph to the X-men because they were desperate, in fact Rogue had to hard sell them on him to let him have a chance to gain their respect and Magneto's shadow followed him everywhere. Desperation in itself is a recipe for disaster for making alliances, unless its temporary, since desperation causes people to make rash decisions and their villains, more often than not, are scorpions not frogs.



    Because the writers in Avengers titles were never allowed to, just like Reed isn't allowed to change Marvel's culture with his absurd technology, they want to maintain a certain status quo and they need the mutants to be oppressed or the X-titles get canceled due to being irrelevant and tone deaf since they're proxies for real world marginalised groups. It's why the X-men were allowed to stay in their mansion without worry of the FBI breaking down their door because they're known wanted criminals and are terrible at hiding, short of their Australian adventure. Political advocacy for mutants even in the X-books has never been so up front with real world problem solving, it's moved closer to this since Bendis but even then it was still occupied with super-heroes fighting super-villains and prioritising violence over things like advocacy work and activism. The time they did try this with Jean got sabotaged by Cassandra Nova and the readers got bored, while X-men: Blue got several volumes. Except they do, the Avengers fight for everyone but they're a super-hero team not an activist group. They also regularly bump heads with governments when under their mandate, alone and as a group, when the government is doing bad things and wants them to do their dirty work so they're not reluctantly going to accept orders to cull mutants in New York City because Henry Gyrich says so. Once again, the reason they do don't that is due to things outside their control, editorial. Hickman is doing things in X-men most writers dream about, and he's still in a bubble and Marvel isn't going to let other writers override things too much in their own corners. The problem is even if the Avengers did what you're asking they wouldn't change anything about mutants being oppressed, since that's a writing and marketing selling point - not an actual thing Marvel want to solve for obvious reasons. That's why the X-men only fail.
    Fair enough, though on the subject of non-X comics not addressing mutant issues, I happen to recall a one-off Spider-Man story post-Clone Saga where he had a mutant classmate while attending Empire State University and had to defend said classmate from the local chapter of the Friends of Humanity, which included a then-recently introduced supporting cast member. That said, something like that is much more of a rarity, especially nowadays, and you do raise a point as well about how superheroes in the overall setting can't do too much to intervene in how the Marvel Universe develops or improves, lest it lose resemblance to "the world outside your window." Honestly, I'm more than a bit frustrated that maintaining the status quo is a recipe for cyclical failure regarding the X-Men's stated goals, and it also doesn't help that the issue they're meant to allegorize seems to only be getting worse and more entrenched with time, not better.
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah, still doesn't count.
    Duly noted. And ignored as false.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Fair enough, though on the subject of non-X comics not addressing mutant issues, I happen to recall a one-off Spider-Man story post-Clone Saga where he had a mutant classmate while attending Empire State University and had to defend said classmate from the local chapter of the Friends of Humanity, which included a then-recently introduced supporting cast member. That said, something like that is much more of a rarity, especially nowadays, and you do raise a point as well about how superheroes in the overall setting can't do too much to intervene in how the Marvel Universe develops or improves, lest it lose resemblance to "the world outside your window." Honestly, I'm more than a bit frustrated that maintaining the status quo is a recipe for cyclical failure regarding the X-Men's stated goals, and it also doesn't help that the issue they're meant to allegorize seems to only be getting worse and more entrenched with time, not better.
    Marvel's just giving X-men readers what they want to read about, it's not entirely about the symbolism mutants represent. What's surprising is the first few issues of Jack and Stan's run when the X-men stopped magneto they were celebrities - people would stop them in the streets and congratulate them but that's not the status quo the readers wanted to follow.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Marvel's just giving X-men readers what they want to read about, it's not entirely about the symbolism mutants represent. What's surprising is the first few issues of Jack and Stan's run when the X-men stopped magneto they were celebrities - people would stop them in the streets and congratulate them but that's not the status quo the readers wanted to follow.
    Fair enough, though it does get a little too unrelentingly bleak for my liking.
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  11. #101
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Magneto laughing at the thought of Krakoa trying to take down the rest of the MU
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  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post


    Magneto laughing at the thought of Krakoa trying to take down the rest of the MU
    Ryan Stegman art from King in Black? Nice. And yeah, it is a laughable thought, because for all the posturing on one side and demonization on the other, mutants aren't really a separate species or race from the rest of humanity. Not to mention that, on another note, machine intelligences have no love lost for either humans or mutants given how many times they've been mistreated and exploited by humans and mutants alike, so in that respect and others, it's ultimately better that everyone gets over themselves and cooperates out of at least enlightened self-interest, or else they all go down when the machines ascend or some extraterrestrial/extradimensional threat comes down that doesn't see any meaningful distinction between powered mutants, nonmutant superhumans, and nonpowered humans.
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  13. #103
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    Krakoa loses.

    You got Wakanda, a nation that has been around longer than Krakoa and who has better tech, and whatever secrets Storm was privy to the have most likely been made invalid.

    We got Latveria and who knows what Doom got from Franklin and he is more than likely ready to throw down with them, no win there.

    They mind wiped Reed but whose to say he doesn't come up with something else and then there is Valeria, who can probably think some nasty things if someone hurts her family.
    Franklin too if they fix him because i doubt they would have him turn on his family for someone who snubbed him for not being mutant.

    They kill Wanda? The full might of the Kree/Skrull alliance comes down on them.

    How many magical mutants do they really have compared to the number of magic users on Earth besides Strange? No win there either, and even if they take him out imagine if the power and responsibility goes to Mordo or Doom.

    Then we got Thor and the armies of Asgard, imagine having that barrelling down on you.

    Brian Braddock get taken out for not playing ball with them and i can foresee Saturnyne being supremely upset about that and we know they are no match for her.

    Orchis sees this as the go sign, they have NIMROD and who knows how many Sentinels, NO CONTEST.

    Earth has a Hulk who won't die and has no reason to side with mutants.

    And then there is Mystique, you think she won't take a chance to burn it to the ground asher lover asked her too? All she needs to do is killed the five and Xavier and it's over.

    The is no scenario where Krakoa wins unless they commit to total massacre or failing that go full out MAD strategy.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post


    Magneto laughing at the thought of Krakoa trying to take down the rest of the MU
    Hmm... Who's the black dude with the sword?

    Question: What would happen if Krakoa and or Arakko (A.K.A., Okkara) suddenly decided to stand upright and take a stroll?
    Last edited by Micabe; 12-09-2020 at 05:54 PM.

  15. #105
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    can krakoa lose but goes to another universe so we can finally have peace and quiet

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