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  1. #121
    All-New Member twenty2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The joke is they don't even know what the teen base wants. I was a teenager when OMD dropped and it drove me from reading 616 for a full decade. I was a JMS-stan in my teen years.

    Why do people think teenagers actually want to read only stuff about teenagers?

    Why did a movie with a 40 year old Superhero like Black Panther make so much more money than any of the sprog-starring MCU Holland movies.
    I agree!


    My main issue with OMD is that it basically killed one of the aspects I loved more about the comics which was the possibility of reading AMS as if if it was the bibliography of Peter Parker. Seeing him graduate, working, move forward, marrying and so on.


    When I started reading AMS, Peter was already married in the comics and it was really thrilling to know I would some day read all the previous stories that lead to that . There were some Dikto comics I had access to at the that time which was great. The 90s animated series also presented a Peter Parker way older than my 10 years old self and it didn't stop me from loving Spider-man. So at least to me having an aged Peter Parker was never an issue. I mean I loved JMS idea of having Peter working as a teacher and I was on high school at that time.


    So I'm not a business man responsible for the spider-man brand. But clearly as a reader and a consumer I don't have the same motivation I had to read and spend money on this franchise. I would be completely ok if they gave an ending story for the Peter Parker created by Stan Lee and Dikto and rebooted the series with BND for a new 30 years long term story telling about Peter Parker. It could even start after a few years of him becoming Spider-man with some flashbacks and context on the past later on (as they did for the 90s animated series).

    But as things are (the past counts/matters and doesn't count at the same time) they simply don't click for me. I just don't have the same commitment to the characters any more (Aunt May was dead. Now it's not. Aunt May knows Peter is Spider-man. Now she doesn't. He was married. Now he isn't...)

    I know it's comics, it's different yada yada (not sure if OMD would be accepted in any other media or if by simply existing doesn't give room to mock comics and rolling eyes but that's another matter...) I particularly don't agree with that since I believe marvel was able to tell the slow pacing history of Peter Parker for 30 years (until the end of the clone saga and the first reboot that pissed me off on the "The gathering of five"). With a good writer and direction they could kept at it. But well this is just what I individually prefer as a reader and naturally it interferes with where I put my money and time on.
    Itís like having a big white sheet of paper to draw on! A day full of possibilities!

  2. #122
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    While I think that her introduction was so horrible that when I read her article on Marvel wiki, I thought it was an out of date April Fools' joke, I don't dislike Cindy as a character, Thompson saved her ass, even if I still think she's not really interesting.



    Thanks.



    Doesn't help that this misinformation is spread, I know that her TV tropes article says she threatened to rape him in that scene.



    Poor forgotten Anya.

    Then again, Marvel has been white washing Anya in the last years... Which I somehow didn't notice and still feel like a moron for it.



    Hey it's usually agreed that Thompson improved her a lot, but if people still dislike her, then whatever, as long as nobody is sending death threats to Slott or anything remotely similar to that.
    My apologies to Anya's fan. The Warren Ellis Avengers arc which focused on her was pretty good.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
    My main issue with OMD is that it basically killed one of the aspects I loved more about the comics which was the possibility of reading AMS as if if it was the bibliography of Peter Parker. Seeing him graduate, working, move forward, marrying and so on.
    Define "graduate". He still didn't get his graduate work.

  4. #124
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    No one in their right mind sends death threats to someone over fictional characters.
    Well a lot of people aren't on their right minds, just a few days ago there was Fantastic Four#26, with the dumbass retcon that Franklyn actually isn't a mutant, that he changed his own DNA to have a fake X-gene and now that he's losing his powers, his DNA lost the fake X-gene and Xavier found out, this retcon pissed off some people, and at least one guy in this very forum, in an Fantastic Four#26 thread in the X-Men board about said he wanted to kill Slott, and another one said that death threats were good for Slott to learn how to write.

    So yeah, we do have people being this shitty, and this is hardly the only time Slott got death threats, and while I don't really think he's a good writer and does some really dumb shit, death threats is going too far no matter what he writes.

    If someone disliked Slott¬’s interpretation of Spider-Man, they had one acceptable way to act: Stop reading. That was what I did with Slott after Silk. What do I think should be done with Cindy and for that matter Gwen? Keep them away from Peter. Develop their own supporting cast and rogues gallery. I think of Ghost Spider dealing with Jackal. Why on Earth does Marvel want to remind people of the Clone Saga? It makes no sense to me, especially because characters like Frank Castle, Eddie, Miles and Felicia started off as Spider-Man characters, and now they have their own place in the Marvel Universe which proves it can be done.
    Maybe Marvel wants to try to get something good out of it, worked with Kaine at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
    I agree!


    My main issue with OMD is that it basically killed one of the aspects I loved more about the comics which was the possibility of reading AMS as if if it was the bibliography of Peter Parker. Seeing him graduate, working, move forward, marrying and so on.
    AMS? Amazing Man-Spider? .

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    My apologies to Anya's fan. The Warren Ellis Avengers arc which focused on her was pretty good.
    Happens man, I often forget some Spiders when talking about them, there are so many after all lol.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 11-29-2020 at 06:45 PM.

  5. #125
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    My apologies to Anya's fan. The Warren Ellis Avengers arc which focused on her was pretty good.
    Yeah, that was a pretty good one. I recall it being cowritten by Kelly Sue DeConnick, who was writing Avengers Assemble and Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) at the time and had wanted to bring Anya in earlier as part of Carol's supporting cast hearkening back to the Civil War/Initiative era of Brian Reed's Ms. Marvel where Anya was essentially apprenticed to Carol as opposed to being arrested for unregistered heroics.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
    I agree!


    My main issue with OMD is that it basically killed one of the aspects I loved more about the comics which was the possibility of reading AMS as if if it was the bibliography of Peter Parker. Seeing him graduate, working, move forward, marrying and so on.


    When I started reading AMS, Peter was already married in the comics and it was really thrilling to know I would some day read all the previous stories that lead to that . There were some Dikto comics I had access to at the that time which was great. The 90s animated series also presented a Peter Parker way older than my 10 years old self and it didn't stop me from loving Spider-man. So at least to me having an aged Peter Parker was never an issue. I mean I loved JMS idea of having Peter working as a teacher and I was on high school at that time.


    So I'm not a business man responsible for the spider-man brand. But clearly as a reader and a consumer I don't have the same motivation I had to read and spend money on this franchise. I would be completely ok if they gave an ending story for the Peter Parker created by Stan Lee and Dikto and rebooted the series with BND for a new 30 years long term story telling about Peter Parker. It could even start after a few years of him becoming Spider-man with some flashbacks and context on the past later on (as they did for the 90s animated series).

    But as things are (the past counts/matters and doesn't count at the same time) they simply don't click for me. I just don't have the same commitment to the characters any more (Aunt May was dead. Now it's not. Aunt May knows Peter is Spider-man. Now she doesn't. He was married. Now he isn't...)

    I know it's comics, it's different yada yada (not sure if OMD would be accepted in any other media or if by simply existing doesn't give room to mock comics and rolling eyes but that's another matter...) I particularly don't agree with that since I believe marvel was able to tell the slow pacing history of Peter Parker for 30 years (until the end of the clone saga and the first reboot that pissed me off on the "The gathering of five"). With a good writer and direction they could kept at it. But well this is just what I individually prefer as a reader and naturally it interferes with where I put my money and time on.
    I started reading Spider-man towards the mid point of JMS when I was around 11 and loved the idea of a Married Peter Parker. The issue isn't what teens want, it's what businessmen think teens want. They believe the only merit Peter Parker has is that he is Spider-man and that he has bad luck. This 'Parker Luck' mentality had dominated the Brand New Day and Slott era's, with it finally being addressed in Spencer's run.

    I like Slott's early stuff, but the problems weren't with him persay, he was more of a yes man on the book. If Marvel wanted Peter to remain single, he was single, if Marvel wanted Peter to have bad luck, he had bad luck. There was no in-between. It also comes down to 'well, we read this when we were young and we liked it'.

    Yes, Quasadea and co probably did enjoy the Ditko, Romina, Stern and Conway years, but that's because they were generally fun and well written stories. I suspect hardly any of them have Nostalgia for Wein or O'Neil.

    It's less nostalgia for us and more nostalgia for them. They want an unmarried Peter because that's what they grew up, and they think that would appeal to teens.

    The truth is, Spider-man worked because he was relatable, but there was also a power fantasy in there. He was the working class kid who got picked on, and then got powers, took out mob bosses and married a supermodel. I'm pretty sure you ask any teen if they would like that, they would probably say 'yes'.
    But the heads at Marvel probably thought issues with marriage wasn't going to work, and so they tried their hardest at every turn to make MJ unlikable.
    'Smoking is bad kids, you don't want Peter being married to a smoker. She also doesn't want him to be Spider-man, that's bad kids. No Spider-man, no comic'.

    These aren't character choices, but mechanical written ideas. They never worked because teens like MJ, she wants Peter to be a hero, she has depth and she has overcome hardship to live a comfortable life.
    But she ages Peter, and that won't sell now would it?

  7. #127
    Mighty Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    I started reading Spider-man towards the mid point of JMS when I was around 11 and loved the idea of a Married Peter Parker. The issue isn't what teens want, it's what businessmen think teens want.
    I'll admit, as a teenager in high school I definitely did like the idea of married Peter and I enjoyed that aspect of Spider-Man's life a lot, but I didn't really care about it when I was under 12 years old. I mean, I was cool with it to read the book when I was younger than a teen but I wasn't really focused on that. I was focused on the cool villain's and fights and powers.

    The truth is, Spider-man worked because he was relatable, but there was also a power fantasy in there. He was the working class kid who got picked on, and then got powers, took out mob bosses and married a supermodel. I'm pretty sure you ask any teen if they would like that, they would probably say 'yes'.
    True, but Marvel is a business and their goal should be to get the most people as possible reading comics. So at the end of the day, why focus on appealing to 13-70 year old readers when they really need to be getting the 8-12 year old readers? I mean those 4 years are crucial and they really need to hit their audience before they move on because comics aren't for them anymore.


  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    I'll admit, as a teenager in high school I definitely did like the idea of married Peter and I enjoyed that aspect of Spider-Man's life a lot, but I didn't really care about it when I was under 12 years old. I mean, I was cool with it to read the book when I was younger than a teen but I wasn't really focused on that. I was focused on the cool villain's and fights and powers.



    True, but Marvel is a business and their goal should be to get the most people as possible reading comics. So at the end of the day, why focus on appealing to 13-70 year old readers when they really need to be getting the 8-12 year old readers? I mean those 4 years are crucial and they really need to hit their audience before they move on because comics aren't for them anymore.

    Then make comics for them. Very rarely can you reach an audience of 8-70, and with a franchise like Spider-man, where Peter Parker is as important as Spider-man, that's nearly impossible. From my memory, only Harry Potter and Doctor Who have managed to do it, and one is a boon specially written to age with the audience and the other is a 60+ year franchise which started off educational and became a Sci-fi hit.

    I do think 8-12 is a good market to get, when I was younger I used to read a lot of comics aimed at that age group. (In fact over here in the UK, we had a pretty good series which was basically Spider-man for kids. Sadly Disney put a stop to original marvel works independent of Marvel US.

    Just trying to get the 12-70 age group is difficult enough. But by the age of 12, the reader's tastes would he a little more refined.

    I do believe there is a comic for younger readers anyway, published by IDW, which is always a good thing. Let them read that and then move onto Amazing when they're ready for something different.

  9. #129
    Mighty Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    Then make comics for them. Very rarely can you reach an audience of 8-70, and with a franchise like Spider-man, where Peter Parker is as important as Spider-man, that's nearly impossible. From my memory, only Harry Potter and Doctor Who have managed to do it, and one is a boon specially written to age with the audience and the other is a 60+ year franchise which started off educational and became a Sci-fi hit.

    I do think 8-12 is a good market to get, when I was younger I used to read a lot of comics aimed at that age group. (In fact over here in the UK, we had a pretty good series which was basically Spider-man for kids. Sadly Disney put a stop to original marvel works independent of Marvel US.

    Just trying to get the 12-70 age group is difficult enough. But by the age of 12, the reader's tastes would he a little more refined.

    I do believe there is a comic for younger readers anyway, published by IDW, which is always a good thing. Let them read that and then move onto Amazing when they're ready for something different.
    Hey, sorry, sometimes sarcasm doesn't come across so well over the internet. My whole point was that it makes more sense for Marvel to appeal to 13-70 year olds financially. That's a much bigger audience. They also do have comic series for younger readers all the time. I basically 100% agree with you and feel the same way.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    Hey, sorry, sometimes sarcasm doesn't come across so well over the internet. My whole point was that it makes more sense for Marvel to appeal to 13-70 year olds financially. That's a much bigger audience. They also do have comic series for younger readers all the time. I basically 100% agree with you and feel the same way.
    Oh no, that's cool aha.
    My mistake there.
    I think I was out at the time anyway so I had to jot down some rough thoughts anyway.

  11. #131
    All-New Member twenty2's Avatar
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    That's an interesting thought on nostalgia playing a big factor on the decision of Marvel's executives @FFJamie94.

    Sure, it's best for Marvel to appeal to 13-70 year olds financially. But well, I don't feel that breaking continuity was needed for that. In fact, my perspective is that what they did with the comics' continuity hurt more the franchise (and the industry of super heroes comics industry in general). The mess they created might only repudiate new readers.

    But again, I don't have any clue or understanding of marketing or business, so it's just my "weak" opinion. However, I can guarantee that at least they lost me as reader and someone willing to spend money on the entertainment they provide.
    Itís like having a big white sheet of paper to draw on! A day full of possibilities!

  12. #132
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    I'm not going to begin to say I can get into the heads of Marvel executives from 15 years ago, so I'll come into this with a small understanding of marketing and media.
    With the marriage, there were a number of factors in the way to end it, with not only folks believing a married Spider-man won't appeal to the kids, but also with the critical backlash from Spider-man 3 and the speculation that the Spider-man films will reboot (the cancellation of Spider-man 4 occured just after One More Day, which means that Marvel knew for sure that they could reboot or they speculated that it was going to reboot).

    But I can say that 15 years later, things are very different. Not only is there new executives leading Marvel, but Miles Morales could have saved the marriage as he appeals to the demographic that led to Marvel going forward with the end of the marriage.
    Not only that, but we've seen MJ is still a popular character, with her getting a solo story and being the focus of two Spider-man issues. We also have executives who will have nostalgia for the marriage years. Both Spencer and Cebulski are in their lates forties to early 50's, meaning they would have been reading Spider-man in the 80's and 90's, where there is a married Peter and the stories were more character driven (in fact, I believe Cebulski would have been around 16 when Peter got Married).
    This is evident in that Spencer seems to homage a lot of comics from around that era, Kraven's last Hunt, Death of Jean Dewolffe, Death of Harry Osborne, all of these were released around the mid 80's to mid 90's. They've seen that People want OMD to be addressed and they know that MJ is very popular. I'm not going to say the marriage is back, I'm just saying that now is the time where we're going to see it get addressed. The Slott and Alonso years were more of an extension of the Quesda years where they wanted stories from the 70's.

  13. #133
    Spectacular Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Well a lot of people aren't on their right minds, just a few days ago there was Fantastic Four#26, with the dumbass retcon that Franklyn actually isn't a mutant, that he changed his own DNA to have a fake X-gene and now that he's losing his powers, his DNA lost the fake X-gene and Xavier found out, this retcon pissed off some people, and at least one guy in this very forum, in an Fantastic Four#26 thread in the X-Men board about said he wanted to kill Slott, and another one said that death threats were good for Slott to learn how to write.

    So yeah, we do have people being this shitty, and this is hardly the only time Slott got death threats, and while I don't really think he's a good writer and does some really dumb shit, death threats is going too far no matter what he writes.



    Maybe Marvel wants to try to get something good out of it, worked with Kaine at least.



    AMS? Amazing Man-Spider? .



    Happens man, I often forget some Spiders when talking about them, there are so many after all lol.

    Man, I'm glad he's not on Spider-Man. I'm against death threats over fictional characters (and against death threats in generall). The best way is just to ignore Slott and not buy any of his books. He is attention hungry if I remember correctly.

  14. #134
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    I liked Slott's early work at Marvel. But after Superior, he fell off the deep end. I've noticed that he basically tried to recreate the clone saga throughout his run, with having at least 3 comics at least partially inspired by that era.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    Man, I'm glad he's not on Spider-Man. I'm against death threats over fictional characters (and against death threats in generall). The best way is just to ignore Slott and not buy any of his books. He is attention hungry if I remember correctly.
    You are 100% right. I mentioned that before that I stopped ASM after Silk due to Slott and oppose death threats ( especially over fictional characters). What I did not say is I will not even try one second of the cartoon due to Slottís involvement, nor read the Fantastic Four despite liking the Thing ( the character in comics I like best after Peter and MJ). I would be interested to see what the ratings are on the cartoon compared to previous Spider-Man cartoons and the sales of FF compared to Hickman and other runs ( I bet they are lower).

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