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  1. #211
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    Well I thought these last three issues were excellent

    I reread the entire crossover last night in anticipation of today's releases and it read much, much, better as one cohesive story. The shifts in tone were not as jarring and once I knew what was coming I was less let down. I, like many here, was disappointed we did not get an "epic" sword fighting tournament section of the crossover. But then again, that might have been repetitive to get 9 different sword fights, and the "Mario Party" section of the story does fit with the tone of the original Excalibur run. Excalibur was always the "other" X-Men book so fully incorporating its universe and tone to a mega crossover is a cool acknowledgement of it's place in the lore. After all Excalibur was still a Claremont book and if we can build huge events out of the Phoenix (AvX), Days of Future Past-esque dystopias (AoA) and all the other foundational work Claremont and company laid down for 17 years, why not do an event that plays in Excalibur's sandbox? Did it need to be 22 chapters? Absolutely not but I think we have to allow for the fact that the Covid-19 epidemic and what it did to publishers played a part in this and it was a way of boosting sales and having a big event to get into the winter season.

    But back to these issues...good golly miss molly what a conclusion. I cannot get over how good Pepe Larraz is. He really might be my favorite X-artist in 30 years. He's just incredible. I hope the X-Office can keep him in their stable for the foreseeable future because the man is redefining the look of the X-Line like no artist has for a generation.

    X-Men 15 - I loved Cyclops big damn hero speech. I thought it was a beautifully constructed scene in the council. While one or two lines read a bit stiff, I just accept that is how Hickman writes dialogue sometimes (the same way Morrison, Millar, Miller, Bendis, Claremont, etc. all have their picadilloes when it comes to dialogue). It brought to mind a speech Hickman had Captain America give in his Avengers run about heroics and whereas then he had Kang dismiss Captain America as nave, here Magneto approves of what Cyclops is doing. I thought we got our best sword fight of the tournament between Genesis and Apocalypse. Honestly, I thought we were being set up for Apocalypse winning the fight, Cyclops comes barreling with the S.W.O.R.D. base and somehow ruining everything but I was relieved that's not what we got.

    Excalibur 15 - The best issue Howard has put together so far. I should mention Asrar's art here. He's such a perfect blending of Larraz and Yu that it is almost spooky. They somehow managed to find an artist that perfectly complements both Yu and Larraz despite not being a clone of either of them. I've liked Asrar ever since the Ultimate Spider-Man All New X-Men arc and he's just gotten better and better. I hope he's kept in the rotation of artists going forward.

    Doug and Bei are delightful even if there is a bit of Scott Free / Big Barda energy coming off in waves.

    I'm not sure what the confusion is for some people concerning Saturnyne is. She specifically wanted Brian to have the sword so that he would be the one to get broken and she could reconstruct the core with Brians. When that didn't work she still went ahead with her plan anyway, thinking that her heart's desire and power could still will the Captain Britain Corps to be made of Brians. But something went wrong, Betsy is supposed to be Captain Britain it seems, and fate denied Saturnyne her wish. But maybe she'll learn this is for the best. Anyway, I thought Betsy's return was illustrated beautifully and again, was the best work Howard has done on this series to date. I also enjoyed the Jubilee moment, a nice hero moment for her, and it was properly set up earlier in the crossover. Anyone who complains she talks about Shogo too much hasn't been around a mother with an infant I think.

    Destruction - HOLY MOTHER FORKING SHIRTBALLS. This was everything you could have wanted in a conclusion. Probably singlehandedly raised the whole event a whole letter grade for me. Really amazing what a strong finish can do in storytelling folks. Cause this issue was perfection. I know I already praised Larraz but it cannot be said enough times that he is the premier artist at Marvel right now and maybe in all of comics. There were multiple splash / 3/4 splash pages that took my breath away.

    If there was one moment that didn't work for me it was when Isca turned. I couldn't tell what we were supposed to be reading in that scene art wise. How did people know she had turned? Because she didn't kill explode-boy?

    Anyway, I adored these final issues and really liked event overall. Not my favorite X-Men Crossover, and not as good as HoXPoX was, but really fun. A solid B+ event
    Last edited by Hcmarvel; 11-26-2020 at 12:07 AM.

  2. #212
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    As someone who didn't care a whit about Apocalypse before, I think it does add a great deal of depth to someone who has always been a flat character coasting along on a cool name and design. I also think it's a bit premature to say this will rehabilitate him. He's still a monster, just not a one-note one anymore.

    Also, the Apocalypse stuff played a part in Moira's 9th life. They freed the original Horsemen and she became his new wife. The depiction of her 9th Life in HoX/PoX was our first cameo appearance for Apocalypse's children
    I actually love the depth given to Apocalypse, in the build up to, and within, this event.

    I still think this event was bloated and a waste of characters. Apocalypse and Cypher (for one issue) are the only characters that got any kind of fleshing out or progression to their character. Everyone else was wasted.

    The QC and X-Men developments were NEVER hinted at prior as being important to this event, but are suddenly dropped in midway through Chapter 19.

    Why waste our time with these swords, using them as representation of the enormity of their potential sacrifice, only to show us how little the swords and their significance meant, both in how quickly the Arrako side got their swords and how the tournament turned into a dangerous Mario Party reenacting.

    Why have Ororo get that sword, and explain to us the power and significance of that sword, and she ends up using it like any random sword?

    Compare the action in any issue to something in say, My Hero:
    tumblr_inline_pb5z7dJeAP1vtw2ks_1280.jpg

    Or Blade of the Immortal:
    boiv30p6.jpg
    LaOwJje.jpg

    There's speed, power, pain and character in their movements and expressions. In the few action scenes we got, they were pretty benign.

    Why wasn't Apocalypse and Gorgon's desperation displayed like these? Focusing so much on being cinematic, that they forget to add detail and emotion to the pages!
    Last edited by TooFlyToFail; 11-26-2020 at 12:12 AM.

  3. #213
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    I actually love the depth given to Apocalypse, in the build up to, and within, this event. Focusing so much on being cinematic, that they forget to add detail and emotion to the pages!

    I still think this event was bloated and a waste of characters. Apocalypse and Cypher (for one issue) are the only characters that got any kind of fleshing out or progression to their character. Everyone else was wasted.

    The QC and X-Men developments were NEVER hinted at prior as being important to this event, but are suddenly dropped in midway through Chapter 19.

    Why waste our time with these swords, using them as representation of the enormity of their potential sacrifice, only to show us how little the swords and their significance meant, both in how quickly the Arrako side got their swords and how the tournament turned into a dangerous Mario Party reenacting.

    Why have Ororo get that sword, and explain to us the power and significance of that sword, and she ends up using it like any random sword?

    Compare the action in any issue to something in say, My Hero:
    tumblr_inline_pb5z7dJeAP1vtw2ks_1280.jpg

    Or Blade of the Immortal:
    boiv30p6.jpg
    LaOwJje.jpg

    There's speed, power, pain and character in their movements and expressions. In the few action scenes we got, they were pretty benign.

    Why wasn't Apocalypse and Gorgon's desperation displayed like these?
    It's a little unfair to compare western comics with eastern manga, the sensibilities are completely different as well as the actual page size.

    I mean panels need to be much bigger in mangas because of the smaller real estate so close ups are needed to see the emotion on people's faces.

  4. #214
    Amazing Member Toonstrack's Avatar
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    Why are ppl saying Storm got nothing to do this event? She's had the focus on her almost second to Apoc. 2 love interest teases and a direct rivalry with the enemy and, an entire Wakanda subplot that is definitely to be expanded upon, plenty of action moments... I feel like she had a good showing this event, and in DoX as a whole she's been a very large presence, moreso than many other characters. Giant Size was basically a Storm solo mini for a few issues, Marauders gives her plenty to do when Emma isn't hogging the page and she's just been a near constant presence on several Krakoa stories in general. Not to mention basically taking over the BP series for a few issues as well.

  5. #215
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    It's a little unfair to compare western comics with eastern manga, the sensibilities are completely different as well as the actual page size.

    I mean panels need to be much bigger in mangas because of the smaller real estate so close ups are needed to see the emotion on people's faces.
    The smaller real estate doesn't stop manga like Berserk or Vagabond. Not only that but most manga are in magazines first, and then shrunk to manga size pages. Still, I'm talking dynamic pages with character. That's irrelevant to sensibilities.

    Shavley:593u2i.jpg

    Wes Craig:unnamed.jpg

    James Harren:f1d41313fd558dad99c2c76e00ed2295.jpg

    Western artists can be NOT generic in their work. It's definitely possible.
    Last edited by TooFlyToFail; 11-26-2020 at 01:22 AM.

  6. #216
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    As others have said, the event lives and dies based on how invested you can get in the Apocalypse family dynamics, and it seems many people did not care for his children. I never got invested in Genesis, so I preferred the council scene to the fight scene in X-Men 15. I just found it very odd that that fight scene of all fight scenes was treated like an afterthought.

    Excalibur 15 was easily the weakest of the 3 issues. Aside from Jubilee and the guards joining the fight it's skippable.

    Destruction was for the most part a good conclusion with the bombastic action you'd expect. The constant 1-upping the other side by summoning more armies got a little grating and the while I was going 'summon the Limbo demons, summon the Limbo demons.' Magik's big moment of teleporting the entire SWORD station was awesome, as was Jean's 'to me, my X-Men.' As uninvested as I was in Apocalypse's family, him succeeding by being willing to surrender was a good moment for him. I was hoping for some sort of twist that would justify the stupidity of the previous 2 weeks but there was none, and it was too predictable overall which knocks it down a peg in my book.

    Overall I'd give the event a C. A solid start, slow middle, stupid tournament, and decent but not great conclusion. As I've already said, they should have not had the swords in the first place since they weren't interested in the swords to begin with. The first half could have been cut in half and the tournament given more time and made more sense if the champions were chosen without their swords, which other than Cable's were irrelevant to everything. Still better than most events over the last decade, but that's a really low bar.
    Last edited by sunofdarkchild; 11-26-2020 at 01:17 AM.

  7. #217
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    It only took 15 issues to finally get a great issue of Excalibur. And of course no real Betsy I’m it. I’m really only interested in seeing what happens with Betsy and seeing if all this setup for Otherworld will pay off and be used or never really seen again.

  8. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toonstrack View Post
    Why are ppl saying Storm got nothing to do this event? She's had the focus on her almost second to Apoc. 2 love interest teases and a direct rivalry with the enemy and, an entire Wakanda subplot that is definitely to be expanded upon, plenty of action moments... I feel like she had a good showing this event, and in DoX as a whole she's been a very large presence, moreso than many other characters. Giant Size was basically a Storm solo mini for a few issues, Marauders gives her plenty to do when Emma isn't hogging the page and she's just been a near constant presence on several Krakoa stories in general. Not to mention basically taking over the BP series for a few issues as well.
    I agree. Skybreaker was ultimately not that important in the story, but at least she had a subplot. She had some moments here, with different characters and angles. Was she the central focus? No, but compared to everything since Claremont's XSE days, it was great, especially given how many characters and locations were packed into this x-over.

    One character who was completely overlooked was Warlock. I mean, dude could have eaten the demon army all by himself. I guess Hickman is saving that for his run's conclusion, but why even bring Warlock to Otherworld if he's not going to do anything at all, not even get jealous of Bei?

    These last three issues were quite satisfying, but at least a third of the 22 issues were fluff, and those pages could have fleshed out some things better that were glossed over. I do appreciate almost all the new characters are still in play. They aren't that much more than slick character designs at this point, but I am interested in getting to know more about them down the road.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  9. #219
    Hi, Sage. nandes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    I don't see how the portion with Jean isn't horrendous writing. Two characters who played no part in the event outside of being tiny bit in the Cable issue decide on their own to upend the entire thing in the last couple issues. They have no connection narratively, thematically, or anything. Just a short foreshadow bit at the absolute tail end of last week. Its almost a deus ex machina. Same with all the Quiet Council shakeups. That wasn't even a suggestion until this week and now its the biggest takeaway from the whole event.
    The Council featured in a big role right in the first issue of the event, Creation, where they demonstrate to be against Apocalypse sending a team to the Otherworld since they wanted to close the gate and not risk the safety of the island. Apocalypse and the rest went against the wishes of the council, just like Jean and Scott did this week. Jean and Scott's care for Cable were also part of that same issue and all the Cable tie-ins. We also had various scenes sprinkled through New Mutants, Hellions and Cable discussing the council's plans and reactions to what was happening.

    I don't know how people can call this event "predictable" and at the same time accuse of it bringing elements out of nowhere when it's all been there since the beginning
    Last edited by nandes; 11-26-2020 at 05:08 AM.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    YESSSS. Thanks for putting them all together.

    No. Apocalypse is going with Genesis.

    Cyclops is still a captain. Jean is no longer on the QC.

    She wanted Brian back as the leader of the Britain Corps. But her spell made it Betsy.

    Question: Who was Isca holding?
    Isca was holding Pyro

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    I think this event has actually raised some really good concerns or at least some thoughts about Krakos leadership. Xavier is its founder and father figure, Magneto might be their folklore like figure if you believe exodus, but Cyclops is a leader.

    Against the will and express orders of their entire government he just lead a literal large army of mutants who all had to understand that if they die they will die permanently this time, but they followed with no hesitation. If I was the quite council right now Id be a bit afraid of Scott Summers and the authority he holds.
    The way Wolverine has been shoved in our faces, you'd think he's the grey cardinal on Krakoa

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by baxer View Post
    After all crap he did, he shouldn't have all krakoa licking his feet
    I thought Isca saved the day actually not until,she turned which was moments after Apoc was fighting for his will with Amenth did anyone have a chance...it's a chicken-egg moment.Did she turn coz Apoc beat Amenth in a battle of wills or did Apoc beat Amenth coz she turned? lol
    Last edited by Rev9; 11-26-2020 at 05:27 AM.

  13. #223
    Extraordinary Member Fokken's Avatar
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    I desperately need clarification on the Isca thing. The whole "She turned" bit. Forgive my stupidity y'all. So.....she stopped fighting (whilst holding on to Explodey Boy's limp body) and.... the other baddies interpreted that as...... switching sides? Or what?



    RIP Explodey Boy

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    This was great, loved that Emma was willing to step down from the Council for Scott, also she voted with them twice, while Xavier voted against them twice. Very interesting dynamic. So Selene for Apocalypse and Warren for Jean? Or Shadow King for Apocalypse?
    I sure hope it's Selene. I wanted her on the council since day one.Come to think of it if most Arraki are now on 'greater Krakoa' doesn't that mean they need a voice? No one better than the honourable White Sword ,but I think he doesn't take bs from anyone ,so I doubt he'd be willing even if the opportunity opened up
    Last edited by Rev9; 11-26-2020 at 06:03 AM.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Oh completely agree, I think Exodus is the only one there who didn't buy their way in or get the place due to nepotism.
    And he consistently has his head screwed on right when the decisions are made.The grin that traitor Sinister gave in Xmen15 will be stuff of legend. Someone needs to expose him pronto

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