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  1. #331
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Sinister has been cloning for years, long before HOX. We've seen them be failures like Madelyne (whom had no soul/consciousness of her own until the PF) and the Maraurders who we've seen as mindless husks in the cloning pens. My headcanon is that the meeting he had years ago as was seen in POX was about getting him on board and they used the Maraurders as a prototype for the Resurrections we see today. I believe that Xavier used Cerebro to try to capture and transfer the minds into those clones with varying degrees of success. The two worked together for years until Xavier had enough experience to take what he learned and applied it to the Five's procedure for a perfect resurrection

  2. #332
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    The books never indicated that Essex created the resurrection method. It was most likely Moira since she was keeping track of the mutants she needed for her plan. For the drugs, they're pills are processed from different greeneries and are processed into pills. They never showed if the mutants take them.
    I got the distinct impression they were made specifically for human consumption and benefit as a "bargaining chip". They were never intended for mutants to use. I could be wrong.
    Because clearly, I'm reading a whole different set of X-books to what's being published. (I think my LCS has been fleecing me, selling me knock-off copies)
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa and Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Sinister has been cloning for years, long before HOX. We've seen them be failures like Madelyne (whom had no soul/consciousness of her own until the PF) and the Maraurders who we've seen as mindless husks in the cloning pens. My headcanon is that the meeting he had years ago as was seen in POX was about getting him on board and they used the Maraurders as a prototype for the Resurrections we see today. I believe that Xavier used Cerebro to try to capture and transfer the minds into those clones with varying degrees of success. The two worked together for years until Xavier had enough experience to take what he learned and applied it to the Five's procedure for a perfect resurrection
    I recently noticed that Si Spurrier's X-force actualy had something akin to a proto-Ressurection Protocol too.

    In it Cable got injected with a super soldier serum which reacts violently when getting used on allready powered mutants (they explode), giving him only a day to live, while Hope, who tried to help him, fell into a coma.
    While getting put in cryogenic stasis allowed to draw out the process for months, buying time for Doctor Nemesis to develop a cure, Cable also wanted to track down the person responcible.

    So each day Nemesis produced a clone of Cable, who would wear a memory recording device, do his part in leading X-force and hunting the person responcible and then at the end of the day throw himself into a fusion reactor (someone should tell Quentin this to make him feel better about his frequent demises). The next day a new clone comes out, recieves the memories from previous one to get him up to date and repeat the process.
    Essentialy having the same Cable from the previous day lead the team, with only the occasionaly hickup when the recording couldn't have been brought back.

    Using the memory recording device in order to create a continuity between the daily clone bodies is quite similar to how Xavier uses Cerebro in the current setup to create a continuity between the replicants created by The Five. Also showing that Sinister's cloning habit isn't exactly the only contender for a prototype.

    Only in X-force the original Cable remained as a master copy for the genetic material and base memories, while Xavier's process entirely depends on Cerebro as a purely digital master copy.

    Though given that Spurrier's X-force series was largely ignored and forgotten i doubt the similarities are ever brought up.

  4. #334
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    I recently noticed that Si Spurrier's X-force actualy had something akin to a proto-Ressurection Protocol too.

    In it Cable got injected with a super soldier serum which reacts violently when getting used on allready powered mutants (they explode), giving him only a day to live, while Hope, who tried to help him, fell into a coma.
    While getting put in cryogenic stasis allowed to draw out the process for months, buying time for Doctor Nemesis to develop a cure, Cable also wanted to track down the person responcible.

    So each day Nemesis produced a clone of Cable, who would wear a memory recording device, do his part in leading X-force and hunting the person responcible and then at the end of the day throw himself into a fusion reactor (someone should tell Quentin this to make him feel better about his frequent demises). The next day a new clone comes out, recieves the memories from previous one to get him up to date and repeat the process.
    Essentialy having the same Cable from the previous day lead the team, with only the occasionaly hickup when the recording couldn't have been brought back.

    Using the memory recording device in order to create a continuity between the daily clone bodies is quite similar to how Xavier uses Cerebro in the current setup to create a continuity between the replicants created by The Five. Also showing that Sinister's cloning habit isn't exactly the only contender for a prototype.

    Only in X-force the original Cable remained as a master copy for the genetic material and base memories, while Xavier's process entirely depends on Cerebro as a purely digital master copy.

    Though given that Spurrier's X-force series was largely ignored and forgotten i doubt the similarities are ever brought up.
    There’s also the issue of the “anima” (or soul) which through the Krakoan Resurrection Protocols and the combined powers of The Five is actually put into the new cloned body, with the digital “master copy” of their memories uploaded into the body as well. So in the case of Cable’s process during Spurrier’s X-Force run, they were always just copies while the original was in stasis with his anima or soul still intact.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    There’s also the issue of the “anima” (or soul) which through the Krakoan Resurrection Protocols and the combined powers of The Five is actually put into the new cloned body, with the digital “master copy” of their memories uploaded into the body as well. So in the case of Cable’s process during Spurrier’s X-Force run, they were always just copies while the original was in stasis with his anima or soul still intact.
    They don't upload the original soul into the body, they just upload a copy on the Krakoan ressurrection.

    Now on eternals they get the original atoms of the body and also get the soul

  6. #336
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Not how I read it. I’d pull the pages and panels but don’t care enough. Someone else might.

  7. #337
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    Not how I read it. I’d pull the pages and panels but don’t care enough. Someone else might.
    The closest you are going to find to what you are thinking of is Magneto explaining it to Polaris, but this is just someone saying things that need to be said for the story to flow the way it needed to flow. The data pages are not so explicit about it and some of the questions posed in the data pages certainly leave it open for debate (e.g., creating a duplicate).

  8. #338
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Yes. Magneto specifically says that Cerebro copies the anima — or essence — of the being and puts it back into the new shell. Don’t think they’d put it on panel if it wasn’t supposed to be the case.

  9. #339
    Fantastic Member Leirus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    Yes. Magneto specifically says that Cerebro copies the anima — or essence — of the being and puts it back into the new shell. Don’t think they’d put it on panel if it wasn’t supposed to be the case.
    At this point they do not need to. If they were mere copies, the Amenthi deaths would not change them. Same goes for the Otherworld deaths. The stored copies are somehow still connected to the individual. Creepily, in Hellions Xavier said that the "copies" were calling to the newly cloned husks of Wild Child and Nanny.

  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    The closest you are going to find to what you are thinking of is Magneto explaining it to Polaris, but this is just someone saying things that need to be said for the story to flow the way it needed to flow. The data pages are not so explicit about it and some of the questions posed in the data pages certainly leave it open for debate (e.g., creating a duplicate).
    I faintly remember that someone brought up a tweet from one of the writers in one of the past discussions on the topic of "what's going on with the souls?", which stated that the process somehow returns the souls to the new bodies.

    However out of story informations by the writers like this always have to be taken with a grain of salt, as they could be intentional misdirections to hide upcomming twists or reveals, or they can easily get contradicted as the stories progress or change hands, because "it was never written in story".

    As long as it's not stated or revealed in story, it doesn't fully count as proof that each replicated mutant is actualy getting the soul of the deceased version. Especialy since none of the mutants involved in replicating the bodies have any powers particular involved in handling souls or being able to reach other planes of existance where the psychic gestalt could have moved on into after death.

    What they do is simply create bodies. From a super hero comic standpoint there is nothing special about it, regardless of how proud they are for doing it without machinery (excluding how Sinister stores and processes the DNA samples). They just flesh print bodies like machines have done in the marvel universe for decades.
    One produces a vessel, another turns it into a self growing protected egg cell, then they insert DNA into it, which the egg cell turns into an embryo, then a third mutant accelerates the growths of the embryo, another makes it life viable and the last coordinates the whole process with her powers. The empty minded replica then gets digitaly stored (classic machinery meaning it's not entirely just mutant power based) memories inserted into it so the resulting person thinks and acts like a perfect copy of another mutant.

    Meanwhile we actualy have a weird scenario on pannel where a replicated mutant is interacting with a differently revived version of themself in the Empyre story. While one was a zombie he certainly was fully aware of his past and capable of having a friendly interaction with his new version. So which of the two has the soul of the original person now?
    If anything it would indicate both having it, which would mean that the process does not infact transfer the soul, but merely that the replicas created by this process develop a soul on their own thanks to the artifical stored memories in Cerebro.
    But that's just speculation i admit, because i can't recall the aspect being directly adressed in story.

    Perhaps it's in time revealed that when Xavier was in the Astral Plane as "X" he actualy set up some kind of "pillar of souls", linking all mutants to it and which Cerebro accesses everytime it downloads the memories. Meaning all this time the metaphysical "master copies" were stored there.
    A potential reveal for when a villain actualy attacks it out of nowhere.

    Perhaps that's also why the effect of Otherworld could so easily scramble memories stored in digital form on machines unconnected to it? Because everyone is always linked to the astral plane storage now, even if alternate or magical dimensions, meaning there is always a backdoor for something to hit them there, damaging their being if they die. If it can happen via Otherworld, it could also happen by other means.
    Last edited by Grunty; 12-04-2020 at 07:44 PM.

  11. #341
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    Yes. Magneto specifically says that Cerebro copies the anima — or essence — of the being and puts it back into the new shell. Don’t think they’d put it on panel if it wasn’t supposed to be the case.
    It is not a text book or rule book, characters say things that make sense to them but to the reader they are open to questioning. For example, Magneto also, on panel, shouted out that humans would not step foot on Krakoa.

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    I faintly remember that someone brought up a tweet from one of the writers in one of the past discussions on the topic of "what's going on with the souls?", which stated that the process somehow returns the souls to the new bodies.

    However out of story informations by the writers like this always have to be taken with a grain of salt, as they could be intentional misdirections to hide upcomming twists or reveals, or they can easily get contradicted as the stories progress or change hands, because "it was never written in story".

    As long as it's not stated or revealed in story, it doesn't fully count as proof that each replicated mutant is actualy getting the soul of the deceased version. Especialy since none of the mutants involved in replicating the bodies have any powers particular involved in handling souls or being able to reach other planes of existance where the psychic gestalt could have moved on into after death.

    What they do is simply create bodies. From a super hero comic standpoint there is nothing special about it, regardless of how proud they are for doing it without machinery (excluding how Sinister stores and processes the DNA samples). They just flesh print bodies like machines have done in the marvel universe for decades.
    One produces a vessel, another turns it into a self growing protected egg cell, then they insert DNA into it, which the egg cell turns into an embryo, then a third mutant accelerates the growths of the embryo, another makes it life viable and the last coordinates the whole process with her powers. The empty minded replica then gets digitaly stored (classic machinery meaning it's not entirely just mutant power based) memories inserted into it so the resulting person thinks and acts like a perfect copy of another mutant.

    Meanwhile we actualy have a weird scenario on pannel where a replicated mutant is interacting with a differently revived version of themself in the Empyre story. While one was a zombie he certainly was fully aware of his past and capable of having a friendly interaction with his new version. So which of the two has the soul of the original person now?
    If anything it would indicate both having it, which would mean that the process does not infact transfer the soul, but merely that the replicas created by this process develop a soul on their own thanks to the artifical stored memories in Cerebro.
    But that's just speculation i admit, because i can't recall the aspect being directly adressed in story.

    Perhaps it's in time revealed that when Xavier was in the Astral Plane as "X" he actualy set up some kind of "pillar of souls", linking all mutants to it and which Cerebro accesses everytime it downloads the memories. Meaning all this time the metaphysical "master copies" were stored there.
    A potential reveal for when a villain actualy attacks it out of nowhere.

    Perhaps that's also why the effect of Otherworld could so easily scramble memories stored in digital form on machines unconnected to it? Because everyone is always linked to the astral plane storage now, even if alternate or magical dimensions, meaning there is always a backdoor for something to hit them there, damaging their being if they die. If it can happen via Otherworld, it could also happen by other means.
    I think the greatest give away that they are copies, is the fact that they must absolutely ascertain that a mutant is dead before resurrection kicks in.If it was a soul transfer the resurrection would simply be impossible without death occurring but in HoX 5 the data page says

    ' However because of fears regarding duplication (and other general questions of morality) unless an actual death has been documented, someone believed to be dead cannot be resurrected until their death has been confirmed or they have been undetectable by Cerebro for one month.'

    This means resurrection of someone who is mistakenly thought to be dead is possible ,it's just that Xavier and co don't want to deal with the ethical and existential crisis such an eventuality would bring to all once a duplicate comes to face the 'prime' mutant.
    Last edited by Rev9; 12-04-2020 at 08:51 PM.

  13. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    It is not a text book or rule book, characters say things that make sense to them but to the reader they are open to questioning. For example, Magneto also, on panel, shouted out that humans would not step foot on Krakoa.
    It's his opinion about the ressurrection. Anima might be only the memories back up. Many things point to it only being a simple back up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I think the greatest give away that they are copies, is the fact that they must absolutely ascertain that a mutant is dead before resurrection kicks in.If it was a soul transfer the resurrection would simply be impossible without death occurring but in HoX 5 the data page says

    ' However because of fears regarding duplication (and other general questions of morality) unless an actual death has been documented, someone believed to be dead cannot be resurrected until their death has. Een confirmed or they have been undetectable by Cerebro for one month.

    This means resurrection of someone who is mistakenly thought to be dead is possible ,it's just that Xavier and co don't want to deal with the ethical and existential crisis such an eventuality would bring to all once a duplicate comes to face the 'prime' mutant.
    It would be impossible to duplicate. I really doubt eternals can get duplicate if there is only one soul.

    The whole Oterworld thing makes zero sense, as the back ups arent even on all the time
    Last edited by baxer; 12-04-2020 at 08:52 PM.

  14. #344
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    I'm not talking about Eternals,my explanation was only about Krakoa ,there is no way to interpret that data page but infer that they are in fact duplicating/cloning mutants. I think the otherworld scenario is just a technical hurdle because it's like trying to copy a corrupt file, because it is corrupt when copied ,it cannot be read as it was 'pre-corruption' ,or reads different. So it's still copying but it has met a technical challenge in Otherworld.Moreover we see Amenth has an effect on mutants there ,they come across more lethal or honed ,so again I think copying is what they do , if mental blueprint is affected ,so is everything else.This being fiction,they may explain some sort of soul transfer in due time ,but as it stands it's just cloning.
    Last edited by Rev9; 12-04-2020 at 09:26 PM.

  15. #345
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Why are we STILL talking about IF they are copies when one book's premise is about manually preventing copies and one of the central components of mutantdom is getting a computer to constantly copy your memories. C'mon guys.
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