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  1. #1
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    Default Wilson Fisk vs Cassandra Cain

    Cassandra Cain travels to New York and decides to go after the Kingpin of Crime, Wilson Fisk.

    Will her speed win her the day, or is Fisk too tough and too strong.

    To be clear, this is the Post-Crisis Cass Cain, when she was Batgirl.

    EDIT: God dammit, I screwed up the title
    Last edited by Jcogginsa; 11-25-2020 at 11:09 AM.

  2. #2
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    EDIT: God dammit, I screwed up the title
    ...this part makes it all worthwhile. ^_^
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  3. #3
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Okay, I'm going to assume this is Classic Fisk, because otherwise, what's the point?

    Breakdown time.

    1. Skill. Cass outclasses Fisk by a lot. Fisk is, at best, a B-tier fighter by skill. Cass is top-tier for DC and Marvel, skillwise.
    2. Speed. *pained laughter*
    3. Strength/Hitting power. Fisk has it over Cass here, no question of that. Dude runs somewhere around Class 3-4, or the like. But Cass, wrt hitting power, is no slouch. She's comfortably hitting somewhere past Comic Book Peak Human, given the variety of different feats that have her treating bullet-proof material like it's a joke, kicking her way through the exterior walls of prison buildings, shattering 6' thick gravestones with missed shots when she's not trying hard, that sort of thing. Still, not in the same range as Kingpin - if he gets his hands on her, or hits her, she's going to feel it.
    4. Soak/durability. Kingpin wins this one as well, rather easily. It's not impossible that Cass can, of course, pressure point him, but I'm leery of giving that to her if Matt wasn't able to take Fisk down by striking his vital points. But I don't feel there's any question she can hurt Fisk, given her feats of hitting power and the fact that she has, for example, drawn blood from someone who was 100% bullet-proof.
    5. Special skills. Cass wins this one easy - combat precog is a huge advantage over the Kingpin's...nothing.
    6. Equipment. Cass, if she remembers to use her gear, is by far better equipped than Fisk, who is never, ever hitting her with his laser cane and won't be able to sucker her with the stick-pin gas thanks to the body-reading. I mean, we could discuss his desk (and probably will), but I'm trying to take this seriously first. At the very least she has thrown blades, which she can and has used quite a bit against all manner of opponents (also in a fashion similar to knives, as hand-weapons)...and Fisk is certainly not blade-proof.

    So, there's one extra point to be made here, and it's getting into stamina. Matt Murdock lost to Fisk because he basically exhausted himself beating up Fisk, and actually badly injured himself in the doing (yes, he hurt himself on Fisk).

    That's not happening with Cass. Her stamina is absolutely ludicrous (gets it from her dad), and she has multiple feats to prove it.

    1. She spends - explicitly noted - 9-10 hours training, said training involving constantly shattering everything she has in her training room, busting up the walls, breaking metal pipes, all without stopping (fighting imaginary opponents), to the point where she's pouring with sweat (and misses every phone call sent to her lair). She then vomits on Spoiler, and is barely able to talk. After about five panels of discussion, she runs (yes, runs) across town through the sewers and arrives at the Clocktower. Apparently running across town was enough of a break that she's then able to go into Barbara's holo-training room, safety interlocks off, and fight holo-opponents like crazy (as if she's perfectly fresh). She then comes out of the training room, immediately gets in a fight with Shadowthief, and treats him like a joke, overwhelming him with her customary speed and skill. Edit: After that, she feels terrible because she almost kills him and, yes, runs off to mope on a building.

    2. She spends a couple of days without sleep, hang-glides into an area, infiltrates a fortress, fights Shiva, gets frozen by Mr. Freeze, left (conscious) half out of the ice for several hours (does not sleep, is ice cold the whole time), gets free, fights a couple of dozen zombies, runs off with a bunch of people she wants to protect, spends the night running through the forest (still no sleep), fights a group of top-level League of Assassin types, and finally starts to note that she's beginning to tire.

    There are others, but those are probably her best examples.

    Additionally, she's not going to hurt her hands on Fisk. DC at times refers to her as 'the stone-fisted Batgirl', and with good reason. All through her series, she punches through metal pipes, shatters walls, stabs her fingertips into katana blades and literally shatters the blade into shards, punches and kicks through 6" marble gravestones, etc, etc. Additionally, her training scene above has her punching and kicking through all kinds of metal and stone, and even headbutting underground brick walls (so brick set against stone, not just bricks) and sending massive cracks through said walls.

    She's not going to hurt herself hitting Fisk.

    Cass is too fast for Fisk, too skilled for Fisk and has combat precog; he's not landing anything for a long, long time. She also hits hard enough to at least hurt him. Additionally, she has shown herself perfectly fine with crippling people or otherwise debilitating them if she feels they're dangerous enough or deserving (she won't kill them, but has done stuff like 'crippled person's hand for life', and punched out all the teeth in another person's mouth because she was royally pissed). She has also done stuff like 'inflict injuries on people that will become lethal if not treated'. I see zero problem with her blinding Fisk (either temporarily or permanently) and then beating him down. It'll take time, but.

    Especially since she gets the capacity to plan, ambush from stealth, and even use equipment if necessary.

    Were this a scenario with Fisk getting warning and having access to his rolodex, I'd be worried about Kingpin hiring Bloody Mary and other metas, but it seems more 'Cass shows up in town and wants to take Fisk out, Fisk has no warning.' Which is not going to end well for Fisk.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 11-25-2020 at 12:19 PM.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Okay, I'm going to assume this is Classic Fisk, because otherwise, what's the point?

    Breakdown time.

    1. Skill. Cass outclasses Fisk by a lot. Fisk is, at best, a B-tier fighter by skill. Cass is top-tier for DC and Marvel, skillwise.
    2. Speed. *pained laughter*
    3. Strength/Hitting power. Fisk has it over Cass here, no question of that. Dude runs somewhere around Class 3-4, or the like. But Cass, wrt hitting power, is no slouch. She's comfortably hitting somewhere past Comic Book Peak Human, given the variety of different feats that have her treating bullet-proof material like it's a joke, kicking her way through the exterior walls of prison buildings, shattering 6' thick gravestones with missed shots when she's not trying hard, that sort of thing. Still, not in the same range as Kingpin - if he gets his hands on her, or hits her, she's going to feel it.
    4. Soak/durability. Kingpin wins this one as well, rather easily. It's not impossible that Cass can, of course, pressure point him, but I'm leery of giving that to her if Matt wasn't able to take Fisk down by striking his vital points. But I don't feel there's any question she can hurt Fisk, given her feats of hitting power and the fact that she has, for example, drawn blood from someone who was 100% bullet-proof.
    5. Special skills. Cass wins this one easy - combat precog is a huge advantage over the Kingpin's...nothing.
    6. Equipment. Cass, if she remembers to use her gear, is by far better equipped than Fisk, who is never, ever hitting her with his laser cane and won't be able to sucker her with the stick-pin gas thanks to the body-reading. I mean, we could discuss his desk (and probably will), but I'm trying to take this seriously first. At the very least she has thrown blades, which she can and has used quite a bit against all manner of opponents...and Fisk is certainly not blade-proof.

    So, there's one extra point to be made here, and it's getting into stamina. Matt Murdock lost to Fisk because he basically exhausted himself beating up Fisk, and actually badly injured himself in the doing (yes, he hurt himself on Fisk).

    That's not happening with Cass. Her stamina is absolutely ludicrous (gets it from her dad), and she has multiple feats to prove it.

    1. She spends - explicitly noted - 9-10 hours training, said training involving constantly shattering everything she has in her training room, busting up the walls, breaking metal pipes, all without stopping (fighting imaginary opponents), to the point where she's pouring with sweat (and misses every phone call sent to her lair). She then vomits on Spoiler, and is barely able to talk. After about five panels of discussion, she runs (yes, runs) across town through the sewers and arrives at the Clocktower. Apparently running across town was enough of a break that she's then able to go into Barbara's holo-training room, safety interlocks off, and fight holo-opponents like crazy (as if she's perfectly fresh). She then comes out of the training room, immediately gets in a fight with Shadowthief, and treats him like a joke, overwhelming him with her customary speed and skill. Edit: After that, she feels terrible because she almost kills him and, yes, runs off to mope on a building.

    2. She spends a couple of days without sleep, hang-glides into an area, infiltrates a fortress, fights Shiva, gets frozen by Mr. Freeze, left (conscious) half out of the ice for several hours (does not sleep, is ice cold the whole time), gets free, fights a couple of dozen zombies, runs off with a bunch of people she wants to protect, spends the night running through the forest (still no sleep), fights a group of top-level League of Assassin types, and finally starts to note that she's beginning to tire.

    There are others, but those are probably her best examples.

    Additionally, she's not going to hurt her hands on Fisk. DC at times refers to her as 'the stone-fisted Batgirl', and with good reason. All through her series, she punches through metal pipes, shatters walls, stabs her fingertips into katana blades and literally shatters the blade into shards, punches and kicks through 6" marble gravestones, etc, etc. Additionally, her training scene above has her punching and kicking through all kinds of metal and stone, and even headbutting underground brick walls (so brick set against stone, not just bricks) and sending massive cracks through said walls.

    She's not going to hurt herself hitting Fisk.

    Cass is too fast for Fisk, too skilled for Fisk and has combat precog; he's not landing anything for a long, long time. She also hits hard enough to at least hurt him. Additionally, she has shown herself perfectly fine with crippling people or otherwise debilitating them if she feels they're dangerous enough or deserving (she won't kill them, but has done stuff like 'crippled person's hand for life', and punched out all the teeth in another person's mouth because she was royally pissed). She has also done stuff like 'inflict injuries on people that will become lethal if not treated'. I see zero problem with her blinding Fisk (either temporarily or permanently) and then beating him down. It'll take time, but.

    Especially since she gets the capacity to plan, ambush from stealth, and even use equipment if necessary.

    Were this a scenario with Fisk getting warning and having access to his rolodex, I'd be worried about Kingpin hiring Bloody Mary and other metas, but it seems more 'Cass shows up in town and wants to take Fisk out, Fisk has no warning.' Which is not going to end well for Fisk.
    As far as forewarning goes, I'd say that for fairness Fisk does know that Cass is in town, and knows that she'll probably come after him at some point.

    But because this is supposed to be Fisk vs Cass, assume that every merc he knows who actually has a name is busy. Generic nameless mercs only.

  5. #5
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    As far as forewarning goes, I'd say that for fairness Fisk does know that Cass is in town, and knows that she'll probably come after him at some point.

    But because this is supposed to be Fisk vs Cass, assume that every merc he knows who actually has a name is busy. Generic nameless mercs only.
    Generic nameless mercs are rather useless, here. It just means Cass sneaks around a little more.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    It's too bad that Fisk doesn't have a supernatural or science-accident or mutant origin to justify superhuman speed, because he was consistently depicted as fast enough to punch either Spider-man or Daredevil. Actually, based on the way we handle pre-crisis Val Armorr here at Rumbles, maybe we should be allowing Kingpin superhuman speed. A Kingpin fast enough to hit Daredevil is fast enough to hit Cass. And we are already acknowledging his superhuman strength.

  7. #7
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shellhead View Post
    It's too bad that Fisk doesn't have a supernatural or science-accident or mutant origin to justify superhuman speed, because he was consistently depicted as fast enough to punch either Spider-man or Daredevil. Actually, based on the way we handle pre-crisis Val Armorr here at Rumbles, maybe we should be allowing Kingpin superhuman speed. A Kingpin fast enough to hit Daredevil is fast enough to hit Cass. And we are already acknowledging his superhuman strength.
    Given Fisk has neither presentation nor speed-feats outside of 'hit Daredevil' and 'managed to hit Spider-man on occasion' to allow him the speed you note, that's basically accounted for under PIS. Just like people like Punisher landing hits on Matt and Peter.

    Val, on the other hand, has plenty of other speed feats on top of feats of landing hits/throwing/reacting to people who were not just speedsters, but speedsters actually explicitly using their superspeed at the time.

    'Mon-el charges Val at superspeed, massively faster than light, and Val reacts to it' is a darned sight different than 'Mon-El gets hit in the face by Val while not being shown to use superspeed'. One of these is potential PIS (and barring corroborating stuff, would be considered so), the other is what actually happened.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 11-25-2020 at 12:55 PM.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  8. #8
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Not to mention the whole retroactive dodging Speed Force lightning thing, which doesn’t even technically involve another character directly.

    It’s him vs Speed Force lightning.

  9. #9
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    biggest question of the thread:



    is there a oak desk around?

  10. #10
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    biggest question of the thread:



    is there a oak desk around?
    That would turn this into a spite thread against Cass.

  11. #11
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    That would turn this into a spite thread against Cass.
    but still valid. i mean, if fisk, especially classic fisk, gets his hands on some furniture, no amount of body reading can save cass.

  12. #12
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    It’s kind of weird if your cause of death is being hit by a stationery object.

    Of course, to be clear, that’s ‘stationery’, not ‘stationary’.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    That desk was so big that it should count as an area-of-effect attack.

  14. #14
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shellhead View Post
    That desk was so big that it should count as an area-of-effect attack.
    I love the idea of Fisk countering Cass’ utility belt by wearing a belt of desks.

  15. #15
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    I love the idea of Fisk countering Cass’ utility belt by wearing a belt of desks.
    No he counters the belt with his laser cane.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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