Doctor Doom #9 "The Windmills of My Mind" REVIEW and SPOILERS

[jackolover]

We have to concede that Reed and Tony weren't totally at fault. Perhaps there should have been some kind of safety valve to prevent the build up of the black hole. Or on a less scientific solution like having some kind of security force to fight off sabotage style attacks.

I will always be grateful to Bendis for doing something with Hickman's conclusion for Doom at the end of Secret Wars. It could have very easily ended up with Doom going back to his old self like Slott did in his Heralds of Doom arc in Fantastic Four. The only thing is I Bendis didn't totally convince me that Doom had some kind of secret admiration for Tony that he would want to honor his memory by taking on the mantle of Iron Man. I do think the idea was good, to show Victor being a bit uncertain as to what he should actually be doing once he decided not to go back to being "Doctor Doom". My belief has been that a good deal of "Doctor Doom" is a performance. That's why I like the little scenes Cantwell shows of Doom writing in his journal where he does critique his actions. There is even some regret there.


I wouldn't assess things quite that harshly until I see what the hell happens next issue. There are a lot of things to finish up for a last issue and I doubt we will be completely satisfied. I for one would have liked to have see what role Mistress Death was going to play but I think that will be a dangler to be perhaps addressed later or not at all. I would hate to see it being dealt with offhandedly like the child Amara was expecting.

Yes. I oversimplified the role Reed and Tony had on the black hole emergency.

Bendis’ Iron Man redemption of Victor can’t be underestimated, continuing Hickmans treatment of Doom from Secret Wars. That has been a wonderful exercise to treat Doom more sympathetically in the 616, and Cantwell for the most part, (except this issue it seems), has continued from Bendis’ model. I want Doom to fit into this modern, superstar, 616, without being the cringeworthy Superstar Tony Stark-style. Norman Osborn could do it with medication, and Kingpin has transformed into an acceptable being in the whole of NYC.

The sudden off-handed dismissal of Amara and her child was like an editorial reversal of something that was going to lead into “Family von Doom”, an effort to inject Doom into a conventional status, I had not prepared for. I couldn’t imagine a Doom with a family, yet Cantwell has Doom in an alternative universe doing just that. Like you expecting Mistress Death calling in her bargain, I expect Doom to find out what this other Doom did right to have a family. Sometimes I relate too much to these characters, and understand why Doom sabotages himself from fulfilling his ambitions.

[lefthanded]

I was lukewarm on the specifics regarding Bendis' take on Doom, as turning him into a Tony Stark wannabe required a bit more nuance and buildup. However, the general idea of Bendis did develop from where Hickman left Doom. Doom is always more interesting when he is not an out-and-out villain, as Slott seems to have made him into.

I thought this issue was great - from (1) Doom who is smart and correct to (2) Doom being slightly delusional to (3) Doom showing emotional maturity to (4) Doom reverting back to his petty nature to (5) Doom screwing up but still blaming others.

It definitely ran through all the facets that make Victor such an interesting character. And thats all in one issue.

The Reed - Doom interaction definitely ran true - everyone thinks they have matured and developed into a reasonable person, but the instant you are confronted from someone from your past (an Ex-, high school friends/enemies, families) it is easy to revert back to your past self.

[Albert1981]

I think I was a little harsh in my previous comment about politicians. I don't hate them. I think a lot of them are pretty brave to go out in the public spotlight and take so many slings and arrows. And the majority of them do it out of sense of civic duty and have really noble intentions. Especially when they could be making a lot more money in the private sector. What I don't like is how they have to compromise on so many of their values and are forced to take extreme positions a lot of times. And there is too much spin in that industry too and politicians always seem reluctant to reveal what their true opinions and stances are (I do understand that they can't a lot of times for political reasons, but it's really annoying to me). I guess Victor doesn't have to worry about this kind of thing. He says whatever the hell he wants. He doesn't have to host fancy fundraisers for big donors or hire political consultants on K Street to burnish his image. He is who he is. As a head of state, he's got it pretty good! So, no I don't hate politicians. I just hate the cynical and backstabbing nature of the profession.

[Iron Maiden]

Yeah, I'm still kinda in shock that Marvel Studios brought in Wanda and Vision at all too. I think most comic book readers are. And the romance thing was another stunner. For sure I thought that they would NEVER get around to that because of its silliness and unconventional nature. But the fact that they did and it seems to be really popular shows that Feige and company know what the heck they're doing. I also hope they don't include too much of the Byrne stuff either. I do think they will keep some of the stuff Byrne did about the reconstruction of Vision after his "death", but I don't think they will go the "Data" route of taking away his emotions. That'll be really harsh. And I don't think they're gonna make Mephisto Wiccan's and Speed's baby daddy either. This IS Disney we're talking about here.

I hope they leave Mephisto out of the Wanda/Vision story altogether in the MCU. Save him for that possible adaptation of Triumph and Torment. In any case I always thought that Wanda and Vision having children in such a bizarre manner even for comics was a mistake. Englehart's story just made Byrne go to work in again "fixing" something. Sometimes that works, sometimes it just makes things worse.

I haven't read Doom lately. I wasn't aware he has committed any reprehensible acts recently. I just think he's a damaged and misguided dude. I do like the fact that he is one of the rare "villains" who is a head of state. I understand characters in the Marvel Universe can't always trust him, but let's not forget he IS a politician. And folks in that profession are professional liars. And I think Doom relishes the whole diplomacy thing and loves hanging out at the United Nations Headquarters in New York. 20th Century Fox never seemed to be able to flesh out Victor for some reason. He was just basically a generic bad guy. Not the 60s style one-dimensional type of villain, but he could have easily been the main baddie for a Die Hard movie (personality-wise). I heard the 2015 version was an absolute disgrace, though. I'll have to take a look at the Russo Brothers take on Victor. I'm sure it will be MUCH better than their uninspired interpretation of the Hulk. And it certainly can't be worse than the recent versions of Superman and Batman over at the DCEU. They literally turned Superman into a war criminal and Batman into a straight up murderer in their recent outings and I really didn't like that. At least Garfield's Amazing Spider-Man was merely a jackass in his movies.

I won't post any spoilers about Victor's recent conduct in winning back Latveria but war is war. And one has to remember that the ones he's after also were responsible for the deaths of the 2000 workers in the Antlion station on the moon. But that's not to say Victor was also getting some personal revenge too for having been framed for the deed and being a fugitive for several weeks.

As for the Russo brothers interest in Victor, I couldn't find the Kevin Smith podcast where they appear. That is what I don't like about podcasts. First of all, they take up a lot of your time to watch, esp if you just want to find the part that you're interested in. They can veer off into other things, etc. And they can be hard to find or just disappear. Here is an interview where the Russos briefly mention the unused Noah Hawley script for his proposed Doctor Doom movie. It's almost like fate is conspiring against Doom at this point. Just when Fox was on the verge of perhaps doing the solo movie, the corporation decides to sell off those assets to Disney. At least it appears he's in better hands there.

I too hope Victor remains Eastern European. The MCU is already heavily Anglo-North American thus far. A little bit of an international flavor would be great. But first they gotta find an actor who can actually do an Eastern European accent effectively. Chadwick's African one was pretty good in my view.

Agreed. The only thing that I think may change is his Romany heritage. Since he is a villain, they may want to avoid anything that would reflect negatively on the Roma. They juggled that very well with Magneto so perhaps the same can be done in the case of Doom.

[Iron Maiden]

I was lukewarm on the specifics regarding Bendis' take on Doom, as turning him into a Tony Stark wannabe required a bit more nuance and buildup. However, the general idea of Bendis did develop from where Hickman left Doom. Doom is always more interesting when he is not an out-and-out villain, as Slott seems to have made him into.

I thought this issue was great - from (1) Doom who is smart and correct to (2) Doom being slightly delusional to (3) Doom showing emotional maturity to (4) Doom reverting back to his petty nature to (5) Doom screwing up but still blaming others.

It definitely ran through all the facets that make Victor such an interesting character. And thats all in one issue.

The Reed - Doom interaction definitely ran true - everyone thinks they have matured and developed into a reasonable person, but the instant you are confronted from someone from your past (an Ex-, high school friends/enemies, families) it is easy to revert back to your past self.

I think if anyone is new to the MU and wants to know very quickly just what the deal is with Reed and Victor, you could just direct them to this comic! The more you think about it the more you start to think Reed should have known better than to make that call. But he did it anyway.

[Albert1981]

I hope they leave Mephisto out of the Wanda/Vision story altogether in the MCU. Save him for that possible adaptation of Triumph and Torment. In any case I always thought that Wanda and Vision having children in such a bizarre manner even for comics was a mistake. Englehart's story just made Byrne go to work in again "fixing" something. Sometimes that works, sometimes it just makes things worse.



I won't post any spoilers about Victor's recent conduct in winning back Latveria but war is war. And one has to remember that the ones he's after also were responsible for the deaths of the 2000 workers in the Antlion station on the moon. But that's not to say Victor was also getting some personal revenge too for having been framed for the deed and being a fugitive for several weeks.

As for the Russo brothers interest in Victor, I couldn't find the Kevin Smith podcast where they appear. That is what I don't like about podcasts. First of all, they take up a lot of your time to watch, esp if you just want to find the part that you're interested in. They can veer off into other things, etc. And they can be hard to find or just disappear. Here is an interview where the Russos briefly mention the unused Noah Hawley script for his proposed Doctor Doom movie. It's almost like fate is conspiring against Doom at this point. Just when Fox was on the verge of perhaps doing the solo movie, the corporation decides to sell off those assets to Disney. At least it appears he's in better hands there.


Agreed. The only thing that I think may change is his Romany heritage. Since he is a villain, they may want to avoid anything that would reflect negatively on the Roma. They juggled that very well with Magneto so perhaps the same can be done in the case of Doom.

Yeah, I was never too thrilled with the magical babies storyline. Englehart's miniseries was great, but bringing in the children that way seemed really "out there" even by weird comic book standards. That's why I like science fiction stories. They are often based on REAL science. But magic defies almost all laws and rules, and can be used to justify and explain things in a totally unsatisfactory way. I'm really curious about how WandaVision introduces the kids. I have a bad feeling they're gonna have them conceived through magic and I'm not sure if audiences are gonna like that. I don't TOTALLY blame Byrne for the mess Marvel made in the aftermath of the birth of Billy and Tommy. I believe Marvel editors were unhappy with the creation of the boys, and instructed him to "fix" it. Then things just went out of control from there.

I know all's fair in love and war, and it's kill or be killed when it comes to Victor's adventures, so I get he might get nasty when dealing with his foes. I kind of like it when Doom gets "political". His stories about magic and science are amazing to be sure, but I want to learn more about him as a head of state. Latveria has committed a lot of atrocities under his rule, you'd figure countries around the world would levy severe sanctions against it. You'd imagine that there would be severe financial hardship in the country. I also wonder if Latveria has territorial ambitions, such as regional grievances in which it wants to redress by military force and trade blockades. Does Latveria have an exile community living abroad in other countries who plot Doom's downfall? Or do they enthusiastically support him? Would Doom send his bots to try to kidnap (or even murder) activists and journalists in other nations who oppose his regime's policies? Does Doom secretly spend Latveria's taxpayer money on sleazy K-street lobbyists, foreign news outlets and Washington think tanks to burnish his government's international image? Does Victor's administration maintain secret chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons programs in defiance of international rules? Would Victor ever use populist nationalism to solidify his rule like so many other dictators do throughout the world? I know these ideas are not very "comic book-y", but they would ground Latveria in the "real world".

I think it would be wise to change his origin in order not to vilify Romani people. BUT I do feel bad for Roma folks who feel they don't get ANY positive media representation either. So I'm of two minds on the subject. Yeah, I think Hawley had some great ideas for a Doom movie/show. Would have liked to see them pan out. Thank you for the podcast links. I agree with you in regards to their problematic nature. I do think Victor is in good hands with Disney/Marvel. BUT, I do feel he will be more family-friendly in the MCU (which I am TOTALLY fine with). He might even have a bit of a sense of humor judging by how Marvel Studios works. I'm OKAY with that too. I just feel bad he'll never get a chance to interact with dudes like Iron Man, Captain America, and Vision. That would be fun.

[Iron Maiden]

I think the chances are getting better all the time that Doom will be interacting with that group. It's one of the many rumors out there. The one I like is that he may appear in the long delayed Doctor Strange 2.

Have you ever read Doom 2099, particularly Warren Ellis's run? Now there's a writer that really brought in the political side of Doom, which began with John Francis Moore. But for most of that run, it was Doom trying to regain his throne. Both of Moore and Ellis IIRC began to create a Latverian language. My thought is that Doom from a very early age was multilingual by necessity. His family traveled through Europe as they were chased from place to place. They felt safer in Latveria for a while but sometimes things got worse and they would leave the country and perhaps go to Hungary or Serbia. In the early days when Doom made his debut Yugoslavia still existed and hadn't been torn apart. So he is quite conversant in those languages, the Romany language, Latverian, Russian (see Marvel Double Shots #2) and of course English. Of course Victor's very fluent in English but deliberately avoids slang and such. I sometimes think since they had limited access to current films he probably grew up watching the films of the 30s and 40s. Most likely he did more reading then attending the movie theater. Since they were on the move so much I wonder if his parents even had TV. I'm pushing his origin forward a bit since the Lee & Kirby origin story was written in 1963. That put Victor, Reed and Ben as old enough to be eligible to serve in the armed services in WWII. Of course these days I think Marvel just quietly doesn't bring that up anymore and the reader is left to decide where they want to place them.

Here's a few pages from Doom 2099 #27 where you get a taste of Ellis's work and an example of his creating some of the Latverian language

[Albert1981]

I think the chances are getting better all the time that Doom will be interacting with that group. It's one of the many rumors out there. The one I like is that he may appear in the long delayed Doctor Strange 2.

Have you ever read Doom 2099, particularly Warren Ellis's run? Now there's a writer that really brought in the political side of Doom, which began with John Francis Moore. But for most of that run, it was Doom trying to regain his throne. Both of Moore and Ellis IIRC began to create a Latverian language. My thought is that Doom from a very early age was multilingual by necessity. His family traveled through Europe as they were chased from place to place. They felt safer in Latveria for a while but sometimes things got worse and they would leave the country and perhaps go to Hungary or Serbia. In the early days when Doom made his debut Yugoslavia still existed and hadn't been torn apart. So he is quite conversant in those languages, the Romany language, Latverian, Russian (see Marvel Double Shots #2) and of course English. Of course Victor's very fluent in English but deliberately avoids slang and such. I sometimes think since they had limited access to current films he probably grew up watching the films of the 30s and 40s. Most likely he did more reading then attending the movie theater. Since they were on the move so much I wonder if his parents even had TV. I'm pushing his origin forward a bit since the Lee & Kirby origin story was written in 1963. That put Victor, Reed and Ben as old enough to be eligible to serve in the armed services in WWII. Of course these days I think Marvel just quietly doesn't bring that up anymore and the reader is left to decide where they want to place them.

Here's a few pages from Doom 2099 #27 where you get a taste of Ellis's work and an example of his creating some of the Latverian language

Yeah, I think it's definitely possible Doom makes his debut in Doctor Strange 2 as a SORCEROR as opposed to his previous movie interpretations as a SCIENTIST. I think Marvel Studios wants to distinguish Victor from the "other" Fox Victors. Thanks for bringing Doom 2099 to my attention. I've never heard of it! I always thought it would be so funny if Victor had to host fundraisers for political campaigns in Latveria if it was a democracy. I know that'll never happen, but that would be amusing. No way would Disney add that into the movies/shows, but it would be hilarious. I do hope that when the MCU introduces him, he's relatively young. Same with Magneto.

[jackolover]

I was lukewarm on the specifics regarding Bendis' take on Doom, as turning him into a Tony Stark wannabe required a bit more nuance and buildup. However, the general idea of Bendis did develop from where Hickman left Doom. Doom is always more interesting when he is not an out-and-out villain, as Slott seems to have made him into.

I thought this issue was great - from (1) Doom who is smart and correct to (2) Doom being slightly delusional to (3) Doom showing emotional maturity to (4) Doom reverting back to his petty nature to (5) Doom screwing up but still blaming others.

It definitely ran through all the facets that make Victor such an interesting character. And thats all in one issue.

The Reed - Doom interaction definitely ran true - everyone thinks they have matured and developed into a reasonable person, but the instant you are confronted from someone from your past (an Ex-, high school friends/enemies, families) it is easy to revert back to your past self.

I also downgraded Bendis’ take on Doom, but had to admit Bendis did continue Hickman’s take, so I am grateful for this run.

There are some neat insights you gave to the different swings in Victors behaviour in this issue. And I do understand the Richards/von Doom dynamic does include Reed pushing Victors buttons, although I think Reed doesn’t see this, (rather than Reed did know and pushed Dooms buttons), and that is a failure on Reeds part. “If you know Doom has a fixation about anything you say, it’s best to not say anything”. Rule 1 for Reed Richards dealing with Doom.

[jackolover]

I think I was a little harsh in my previous comment about politicians. I don't hate them. I think a lot of them are pretty brave to go out in the public spotlight and take so many slings and arrows. And the majority of them do it out of sense of civic duty and have really noble intentions. Especially when they could be making a lot more money in the private sector. What I don't like is how they have to compromise on so many of their values and are forced to take extreme positions a lot of times. And there is too much spin in that industry too and politicians always seem reluctant to reveal what their true opinions and stances are (I do understand that they can't a lot of times for political reasons, but it's really annoying to me). I guess Victor doesn't have to worry about this kind of thing. He says whatever the hell he wants. He doesn't have to host fancy fundraisers for big donors or hire political consultants on K Street to burnish his image. He is who he is. As a head of state, he's got it pretty good! So, no I don't hate politicians. I just hate the cynical and backstabbing nature of the profession.

There should be an appreciation of the political profession. I saw politicians as ineffectual and corrupt at first glance. But years of observation tells me you could be put in jail, your life savings stripped, or worse shot dead for risking that life..

And it’s not just being in a party and pushing a party line. A politician is the mechanism that has to navigate what’s in between the violence and the peaceful resolution of conflict. It may not be ideal, attractive, or, praised, but someone has to do it in an environment of negotiation. That it seems to work is the shock of it all. If we didn’t have politicians we would have Mad Max world.

So I do see the use and value of politicians in the structure of the stable society. Nobody likes chaos, because that’s the alternative.

Nick Spencer should come in here and give us the whole sweep of political appreciation.

[Albert1981]

There should be an appreciation of the political profession. I saw politicians as ineffectual and corrupt at first glance. But years of observation tells me you could put in jail, your life savings stripped, or worse shot dead for risking that life..

And it’s not just being in a party and pushing a party line. A politician is the mechanism that has to navigate what’s in between the violence and the peaceful resolution of conflict. It may not be ideal, attractive, or, praised, but someone has to do it in an environment of negotiation. That it seems to work is the shock of it all. If we didn’t have politicians we would have Mad Max world.

So I do see the use and value of politicians in the structure of the stable society. Nobody likes chaos, because that’s the alternative.

Nick Spencer should come in here and give us the whole sweep of political appreciation.

Yeah, I agree with your comments. It's a VERY thankless profession and a LOT of people look down on it. Often times politicians invite such scorn due to their own bad behavior, but for the most part I concur that politicians in democratic societies are important for the peace and prosperity of those societies. Chaos and anarchy are terrible alternatives. I do think a lot of politicians care about their constituents. I actually think things might be better if politicians were PAID more so they wouldn't have to take so many bribes. I'm not even sure if Latveria has a congress or parliament!