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  1. #121
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    As a human Sinister was helping the Marauders abduct and experiment on the homeless and before this he was kicked out of Victorian medial community for being a monster. That's how depraved he was, a case could be made he's less humane than Apocalypse, who has understandable reasons for going dark side in his early days like with Rama Tut. Which really says something about how monstrous Sinister is as a person.

    Except when he gets incredibly personal with manipulating and stalking Scott Summers when he was a kid and continued to do so when he was an adult. Not that that being true wouldn't make him not a monster, that's the definition of a "mad scientist." Remember when he tortured mutants to death on a global scale in "Powerless" for scientific research? But no, he's doing something helpful for once for mutant kind this makes him a saint. It's not like he's going to betray them or anything because he's evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Where Sinister a human who hated mutants or a non-Xmen villain we wouldn't be having this conversation that's for certain.
    The narrative makes no attempts to hide the fact that Sinister is an evil monster. He's not a saint. They are using him because he is useful and the knowledge Moira brings that the mutants NEVER come out on top lead to desperation and breaking all the rules. He is key to the resurrection protocols and he's an X-Man character, that's why he's here. it's already been established that he betrays Krakoa in one of Moira's other lives, so it's already setting up for the fact that he can't be trusted, and Moira may have already informed this to Charles and Magneto so they can plan for it.

    In the meantime, people in the fandom love Sinister precisely because he's an awful person and loves every minute of it, but there is a difference between being entertained by a villain and thinking they're right in their actions

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The narrative makes no attempts to hide the fact that Sinister is an evil monster. He's not a saint. They are using him because he is useful and the knowledge Moira brings that the mutants NEVER come out on top lead to desperation and breaking all the rules. He is key to the resurrection protocols and he's an X-Man character, that's why he's here. it's already been established that he betrays Krakoa in one of Moira's other lives, so it's already setting up for the fact that he can't be trusted, and Moira may have already informed this to Charles and Magneto so they can plan for it.

    In the meantime, people in the fandom love Sinister precisely because he's an awful person and loves every minute of it, but there is a difference between being entertained by a villain and thinking they're right in their actions
    Sinister already started his Chimera plans

  3. #123
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baxer View Post
    Sinister already started his Chimera plans
    Well that settles it. Still reinforcing a narrative that he's a villain, not someone we are meant to view as saintly just because he's a mutant.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Well that settles it. Still reinforcing a narrative that he's a villain, not someone we are meant to view as saintly just because he's a mutant.
    It still is a bad look that mutants accepted him

  5. #125
    Incredible Member frostedemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    And then there would be the angle of 'forgiveness for all mutants no matter how monstrous, but humans get nothing' that that would emphasize. Its a weird aspect to go off of.
    Well I think it changes between villainous mutants and villainous humans. There's a difference between a villain who's a mutant and harmed other mutants, they did it because they're a villain and not out of some anti mutant bigotry (well except for Cassandra Nova but she's not getting invited any time soon). Whereas a human villain who harmed mutants actively targeted a minority group because of bigotry.

  6. #126
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    Well I think it changes between villainous mutants and villainous humans. There's a difference between a villain who's a mutant and harmed other mutants, they did it because they're a villain and not out of some anti mutant bigotry (well except for Cassandra Nova but she's not getting invited any time soon). Whereas a human villain who harmed mutants actively targeted a minority group because of bigotry.
    I remember a story where a mutant wanted to harm the X-men because they looked handsome and he was ugly. He considered the X-men as not enough mutant.

    Anyway, if a human villain who harms a mutant does it systematically for bigotry reasons, we can blame X-men writers for their lack of imagination.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  7. #127
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    Well I think it changes between villainous mutants and villainous humans. There's a difference between a villain who's a mutant and harmed other mutants, they did it because they're a villain and not out of some anti mutant bigotry (well except for Cassandra Nova but she's not getting invited any time soon). Whereas a human villain who harmed mutants actively targeted a minority group because of bigotry.
    But at the same time, quite a few of the monstrous villains harmed humans due to bigotry of declaring that they are superior. So how is it that one set of bigotry gets a pass while the other becomes a full shadow cast upon the entire race? Bigotry is bigotry no matter who does it.

  8. #128
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    But at the same time, quite a few of the monstrous villains harmed humans due to bigotry of declaring that they are superior. So how is it that one set of bigotry gets a pass while the other becomes a full shadow cast upon the entire race? Bigotry is bigotry no matter who does it.
    Equality before the law is in the UN charter.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  9. #129
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baxer View Post
    It still is a bad look that mutants accepted him
    That's true, but it's entertaining so I can see why the choice was made.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    That's true, but it's entertaining so I can see why the choice was made.
    Well for me it takes me out of suspension of disbelief

  11. #131
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baxer View Post
    It still is a bad look that mutants accepted him
    It's not like they blindly accepted him, they clearly hate his guts and tolerate him at best because they need his genius.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    But at the same time, quite a few of the monstrous villains harmed humans due to bigotry of declaring that they are superior. So how is it that one set of bigotry gets a pass while the other becomes a full shadow cast upon the entire race? Bigotry is bigotry no matter who does it.
    Because the mutants have collectively had to deal with the entire MU being against them or not doing much to help them as the government creates murder bots to round up/exterminate even the most harmless of mutants. This is going to cause the backlash that results in the attitudes we see in Krakoa. They've been made to feel lesser for so long, they've understandably swung to their own extreme. And the narrative isn't taking a clear stance that they are 100% right, because it isn't a clear cut issue. Just as it's kind of understandable for the humans to be getting nervous with the Krakoans uniting and reveling in their power considering some of the citizens of Krakoa.

    Or the machine race being a threat to both of them, when they are created to take part in a war they didn't start. So Mother Mold isn't wrong to resent both species and plan to wipe them out. There is hypocrisy on all sides borne from understandable/human reasons, and that's what makes this interesting and exciting.

  12. #132
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's not like they blindly accepted him, they clearly hate his guts and tolerate him at best because they need his genius.
    A.K.A what the US did with Werhner Von Braun

  13. #133
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    Well I think it changes between villainous mutants and villainous humans. There's a difference between a villain who's a mutant and harmed other mutants, they did it because they're a villain and not out of some anti mutant bigotry (well except for Cassandra Nova but she's not getting invited any time soon). Whereas a human villain who harmed mutants actively targeted a minority group because of bigotry.
    There have definitely been mutant villains who hunted other mutants out of bigotry or sport. The problem for me is that we're now getting more ostensibly moral mutants talking about all of humanity like the entire race is the problem, where even during the worst periods of X history has never been the case. Magneto's little speech in X-men where he said they can't tell good humans from bad ones anymore was laughable given that he was sitting next to Apocalypse.

    Serious question, how often in Marvel did governments actively hunt down mutants in attempted genocide? I know most governments have Sentinels, but usually when they went wild they were either hacked by someone or seized by a splinter/shadow group that lacked actual government approval or authority. Like a renegade general or something.

  14. #134
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    If you continue to use a weapon that not only was designed to persecute minorities, but also has been shown that can get out of control and act on it's own and/or is easily taken over by someone else from day one, then you are as guilty as the people that deliberately try to have them killed. Plus, yeah, in many cases, it was shown they killed mutants with the express or tacit approval of the governments involved.

  15. #135
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Sentinels are treated as the go-to counter mutant weapons, even if they are ridiculous. Especially now that they have a nation who's primary military force is superpowered mutants, other nations having anti-mutant weapons around should be expected. Seems like a stretch to treat having the weapons as the same as people demanding genocide.

    When have governments expressly or tacitly approved the slaughters? More than just some rogue general or something. I want to be clear that I'm not being sarcastic and snarky, because there have been a lot of nuts trying to wipe them out, but that's different from nations explicitly trying to kill them all.

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