"Krakoa isn't about assimilation"?

[Kisinith]

The protest was after Beast bringing the O5 and Scott reflecting on what went wrong. His original plans weren't so peaceful, that is what Bendis heavily implies.

You have evidence for this? Its funny, I remember a lot of speculation, mostly by people who didn't like Cyclops, that this would happen, but in the comic there is no actual evidence of this happening. Sure there was a lot of hand wringing and 'woe are we' comments from the JGS, and the Avengers, but all Cyclops and co. actually did was rescue young mutants who were actually being attacked, mistreated and abused. Damn that Cyclops for doing exactly what the X-Men have always done... and making youtube videos professing love and solidarity with their regular human supporters, attending human run pro-mutant rallies and being all not evil.

i can see that, bbeast went too far just like Scott. I just think it was lame that any opposition to Scott was badly seen by fans and writers indulged it on the writing. Not every person opposing him should be written badly or killed off

I keep waiting for someone to tell me what exactly Cyclops did that was "going too far".

You seem to forget that the Marvel intended Cyclops to be wrong. It wasn't a conspiracy to elevate Cyclops at the expense of others, it was a conspiracy to elevate others at the expense of Cyclops and the execution failed miserably. Just like how Stark was supposed to be the "hero" of Civil War. "Cyclops was right" was the result of the majority of fans rejecting poor editorial and bad writing. From schism through AvX and all the way up until just before Hickman, Cyclops was the most sympathetic character of the ongoing schism plotline. This was not through any great effort or merit of his own, but because his detractors and the "heroes" were all doing cartoonishly worse things than anything that he did. Rather than accepting that, Marvel kept doubling down without ever actually providing any pay off.

This includes such amazing low points like condemning Cyclops for running a black ops from the mutant nation but turning a blind eye when Wolverine did it out of a mutant school. Condemn Cyclops for allowing kids to fight while ignoring how the ongoing hysterical adventures of grampy Wolverine and the wacky hijinks of the JGS put kids in loads of danger every month.
Arguing this crap while ignoring all of the people trying to murder those same kids.
This goes on all they way down to killing Cyclops offscreen and telling everyone...

"He's the mutant Hitler! What did he? OMG, it was sooo bad, we can't tell you what it was, but just trust us, it was too terrible for words. Yeah, it was sooo terrible. No, we aren't going to tell you what he did. but trust us its bad, really we mean it. Really Bad. Yes there is a giant death cloud covering the earth killing mutants. Yes it was released by the Inhumans. No, Cyclops didn't release it. No the Inhumans and the Avengers and everyone else aren't doing anything about it, but don't worry about that, they are heroes. Cyclops was soooo evil, you don't even know. We'll tell you what it was later, but its really bad, m'kay."

Yeah... its real "lame" that fans rejected the opposition to Cyclops...

Comparing him with his avengers days, he was a bore. He became the generic smart guy

Say that to Beast fans (yes he has fans)

I have, most Beast fans I've spoken to, including myself, overwhelmingly preferred the Shakespearean quoting fun-loving Beast over the morose, hypocritical self-righteous piece of crap he's become.

[baxer]

Actually Bendis implies that he didn’t have an original plan. It was either Emma or Tempus (maybe both) who called him out for not having any actual plan for a revolution and that this whole thing was just his nervous breakdown resulting from Charles’ death.

I can also see where you’re coming from, and it’s part of the reason why I like that the X-books are coming from a more unified place now. You had some writers vilifying Scott, while others were clearly on his side so nobody came off looking great.

Beast was afraid of Scott going full war against humans, he was very unstable emotionally.

It was a problem that writers couldnt agree who was right but fans doesnt accept anyone questioning Cyclops.It's harder for Beast that has a lot less fans, isn't the protagonist. He got villified when he had legit questions and concerns about what yclops is doing. Writers could do a better case of presenting sides without heavy bias, but instead they keep pilling on making Beast a irredeamable character

[Devaishwarya]

[QUOTEKisinith;5263451]I have, most Beast fans I've spoken to, including myself, overwhelmingly preferred the Shakespearean quoting fun-loving Beast over the morose, hypocritical self-righteous piece of crap he's become.[/QUOTE]

Hear-fekkin-HEAR!!!

[baxer]

You have evidence for this? Its funny, I remember a lot of speculation, mostly by people who didn't like Cyclops, that this would happen, but in the comic there is no actual evidence of this happening. Sure there was a lot of hand wringing and 'woe are we' comments from the JGS, and the Avengers, but all Cyclops and co. actually did was rescue young mutants who were actually being attacked, mistreated and abused. Damn that Cyclops for doing exactly what the X-Men have always done... and making youtube videos professing love and solidarity with their regular human supporters, attending human run pro-mutant rallies and being all not evil.

He was unstable, it was obvious that he wouldnt stay only on recuing and rallys that change very little. Revolutions are violent, they arent made by people praying or dancing.

I keep waiting for someone to tell me what exactly Cyclops did that was "going too far".

You seem to forget that the Marvel intended Cyclops to be wrong. It wasn't a conspiracy to elevate Cyclops at the expense of others, it was a conspiracy to elevate others at the expense of Cyclops and the execution failed miserably. Just like how Stark was supposed to be the "hero" of Civil War. "Cyclops was right" was the result of the majority of fans rejecting poor editorial and bad writing. From schism through AvX and all the way up until just before Hickman, Cyclops was the most sympathetic character of the ongoing schism plotline. This was not through any great effort or merit of his own, but because his detractors and the "heroes" were all doing cartoonishly worse things than anything that he did. Rather than accepting that, Marvel kept doubling down without ever actually providing any pay off.

This includes such amazing low points like condemning Cyclops for running a black ops from the mutant nation but turning a blind eye when Wolverine did it out of a mutant school. Condemn Cyclops for allowing kids to fight while ignoring how the ongoing hysterical adventures of grampy Wolverine and the wacky hijinks of the JGS put kids in loads of danger every month.
Arguing this crap while ignoring all of the people trying to murder those same kids.
This goes on all they way down to killing Cyclops offscreen and telling everyone...

If Marvel wanted to elevate others at the expense of Scott, that would happen. People always think that marvel is against Scott, they were never against him. Soe writers wanted to criticize his extreme ways and some were not having it defending Scott. If anything Marvel interfered to not make him a villain.
We always have to remember that Hank still get flck ecause of a slap;

I have, most Beast fans I've spoken to, including myself, overwhelmingly preferred the Shakespearean quoting fun-loving Beast over the morose, hypocritical self-righteous piece of crap he's become.

It's like getting a boring version and them getting the worst version possible,. Of course is best get the boring version. Easiest choice ever

[Kingdom X]

He was unstable, it was obvious that he wouldnt stay only on recuing and rallys that change very little. Revolutions are violent, they arent made by people praying or dancing.


If Marvel wanted to elevate others at the expense of Scott, that would happen. People always think that marvel is against Scott, they were never against him. Soe writers wanted to criticize his extreme ways and some were not having it defending Scott. If anything Marvel interfered to not make him a villain.
We always have to remember that Hank still get flck ecause of a slap;


It's like getting a boring version and them getting the worst version possible,. Of course is best get the boring version. Easiest choice ever

Post deleted. Realized I actually don't wanna get into a roundabout discussion about Cyclops when the books have moved onto better thing.

[pkingdom]

That whole era was super weird. If you want to have Cyclops do a heel turn, commit to it. Have him do actually terrible things and not have everyone else just talking about stuff he did. Just some hilariously bad writing all around. Like they told everyone outside the X books to act like Cyclops was the second coming of Hitler, and then didn't make the actual X writers write that. And I don't even like Cyclops, so defending him, even abstractly, feels weird.

[Wolverine12]

When did another X-Man threaten the fabric of space and time with their actions?

Logan, Age of Ultron. Although he had a lot of help and Beast solo’d that mess.

[Agent Z]

Beast was the only one with balls to push back against and challenge Cyclops.

Pushing back and challenging Cyclops is only noble if Cyclops is actually doing something that requires challenging. And most of what Scott did, prior to AvX and even after it, either wasn't so bad or had plenty of mitigating circumstances.

I get the feeling if this were Xavier or Wolverine being challenged, you'd say Hank was wrong.

[Agent Z]

Beast was afraid of Scott going full war against humans, he was very unstable emotionally.

It was a problem that writers couldnt agree who was right but fans doesnt accept anyone questioning Cyclops.It's harder for Beast that has a lot less fans, isn't the protagonist. He got villified when he had legit questions and concerns about what yclops is doing. Writers could do a better case of presenting sides without heavy bias, but instead they keep pilling on making Beast a irredeamable character

One of the many reasons Wolverine is popular is because he questions Cyclops so this isn't true. It's just that now Cyclops had a lot more people defending him.

[Omega Alpha]

Pushing back and challenging Cyclops is only noble if Cyclops is actually doing something that requires challenging. And most of what Scott did, prior to AvX and even after it, either wasn't so bad or had plenty of mitigating circumstances.

I get the feeling if this were Xavier or Wolverine being challenged, you'd say Hank was wrong.

Of course. Again, the only people really complaining about Cyclops is, at the end of the day, all about people being mad about him getting together with Emma.

Likewise, most (though not all) of the complaints about this era are about people who hate the poly stuff or like to pretend it doesn't exist (yes, there's still people on this group even now). It's, as usual, ultimately all about sex- specially with a portion of Jean fans, who see her as a Mary Sue and an avatar of all-American perfection, who can't be sullied by things like her man sleeping around (why would he do that if she's perfect?) or *gasp* her having sex with more than one man, which would make her a whore.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Of course. Again, the only people really complaining about Cyclops is, at the end of the day, all about people being mad about him getting together with Emma.

Likewise, most (though not all) of the complaints about this era are about people who hate the poly stuff or like to pretend it doesn't exist (yes, there's still people on this group even now). It's, as usual, ultimately all about sex- specially with a portion of Jean fans, who see her as a Mary Sue and an avatar of all-American perfection, who can't be sullied by things like her man sleeping around (why would he do that if she's perfect?) or *gasp* her having sex with more than one man, which would make her a whore.

No, it's really not. Hickman's making an incredibly controversial direction with the franchise, it's not simply about people being weirded out because of the sex stuff. Cyclops and Emma are also controversial characters in their own right, have been for years. Their sexual proclivities are boring compared to why people dislike them or why they hooked up. Emma's bad because she's still a villain who will do things like brainwash citizens under her own authority in re-education camps, something which has been swept under the rug with New Tien in X-men: Blue then complain whenever someone confronts her about it - which is rarely the X-men these days. It really was irritating how she dared to lecture Luke Cage about oppression. Her fascist tendencies really make her uncomfortable to read in today's political climate, but she has a great fashion sense and is a beautiful, blonde white lady so it'll be ignored.

Edit: Jean was angry with Emma because she manipulated her husband into having an affair with her, and she did this when Scott said no so she doesn't respect sexual boundaries, which is even more unnerving. It's not like Jean and Scott were having a poly relationship, Emma knew they were a boring straight couple and she chose to break them up because she's jealous of Jean and needs trophy boyfriend. Anyone would be upset with their partner having an affair, especially when that someone is Emma Frost - someone will use her telepathy to override her "conquest" refusing her advances. If she did that with Warren when he was dating Betsy we'd get the same result. She knew what she was doing and has no remorse over it. The only reason she got a relationship with Scott out of it was thanks to the narrative, and they never went into the implications of how toxic it was. Current Jean is a whole new ballgame, and hardly acting entirely exactly like she was pre-Krakoa.

[Devaishwarya]

you see...with statements like "Emma's bad because she's still a villain..." when every writer from Morrison to HiX-Man has written her clearly on the side of the heroes albeit with her own sense of how to do things (which has always been the case from way back in her Massachusetts Academy/New Mutant days) then...I absolutely refuse to take that opinion seriously.

[ZephyrSurf]

Emma's not a Villain, only the most fan driven 'my fave better' kinda stan would argue that position in 2020. Now there are definitely issues with the minority comparison AND I COULD SPEND ALL WEEK RUNNING THEM DOWN but that's not the core of what I'd consider the issue with this era.

Biggest issue is that a lot is left up to interpretation and it's pretty clear the writers, while somewhat on the same page, clearly are in different paragraphs.

[Omega Alpha]

you see...with statements like "Emma's bad because she's still a villain..." when every writer from Morrison to HiX-Man has written her clearly on the side of the heroes albeit with her own sense of how to do things (which has always been the case from way back in her Massachusetts Academy/New Mutant days) then...I absolutely refuse to take that opinion seriously.

Exactly. I'm not saying that there aren't reasons to dislike the current status quo, but ultimately the vast majority of the complaints is sex stuff, even if indirectly or the posters won't admit. In the case of essentially everyone defending Beast against Cyclops, or saying Emma is a fascist villain, that's all sex stuff.

[baxer]

No, it's really not. Hickman's making an incredibly controversial direction with the franchise, it's not simply about people being weirded out because of the sex stuff. Cyclops and Emma are also controversial characters in their own right, have been for years. Their sexual proclivities are boring compared to why people dislike them or why they hooked up. Emma's bad because she's still a villain who will do things like brainwash citizens under her own authority in re-education camps, something which has been swept under the rug with New Tien in X-men: Blue then complain whenever someone confronts her about it - which is rarely the X-men these days. It really was irritating how she dared to lecture Luke Cage about oppression. Her fascist tendencies really make her uncomfortable to read in today's political climate, but she has a great fashion sense and is a beautiful, blonde white lady so it'll be ignored.

Edit: Jean was angry with Emma because she manipulated her husband into having an affair with her, and she did this when Scott said no so she doesn't respect sexual boundaries, which is even more unnerving. It's not like Jean and Scott were having a poly relationship, Emma knew they were a boring straight couple and she chose to break them up because she's jealous of Jean and needs trophy boyfriend. Anyone would be upset with their partner having an affair, especially when that someone is Emma Frost - someone will use her telepathy to override her "conquest" refusing her advances. If she did that with Warren when he was dating Betsy we'd get the same result. She knew what she was doing and has no remorse over it. The only reason she got a relationship with Scott out of it was thanks to the narrative, and they never went into the implications of how toxic it was. Current Jean is a whole new ballgame, and hardly acting entirely exactly like she was pre-Krakoa.

Seriously that Emma Frost lectured Luke Cage about being persecuted? LOL OMG I have no doubts the writer was white to do this.

Yes Emma has ignored consent many times, she shouldnt be a hero. For much less Hank got only crap coming to him.

One of the many reasons Wolverine is popular is because he questions Cyclops so this isn't true. It's just that now Cyclops had a lot more people defending him.

he isn't popular because he questions Cyclops. He is popular because he is violent but aso is a father figure to girls like Kitty and Jubes.

That whole era was super weird. If you want to have Cyclops do a heel turn, commit to it. Have him do actually terrible things and not have everyone else just talking about stuff he did. Just some hilariously bad writing all around. Like they told everyone outside the X books to act like Cyclops was the second coming of Hitler, and then didn't make the actual X writers write that. And I don't even like Cyclops, so defending him, even abstractly, feels weird.

It was a big bait, they clearly wanted to get people atention so they did that but had no intention of following up on that.