Young Justice Outsiders and the Supers (Spoilers for an old show)

[DochaDocha]

Show was added to HBO Max, so I checked it out.

With specific regard to the Super franchise, there were things that I liked, and other things I didn't.

Pros:
1. YJ takes some of its cues from the JL cartoon from the early 2000s (e.g. reintroducing Hro Talak). That cartoon, as well as the recently-concluded animated movie line, both had critical plots revolving around Superman's poor decisions in leadership. Luckily, YJO doesn't touch that with a 10-foot stick. This season's bungles are courtesy of Superman's fellow Trinity mates, Wonder Woman and Batman. Nice when you don't have to deal with a season-long struggle with Superman, the moron.

2. I'm no Jon fan, though I am adamant that if you absolutely insist upon adding Jon into the mix, start off with him as an infant. No time-skips for Jon in this show, thank goodness, unless you count skipping his gestational days.

3. They make it a point in the writing to uphold Superman as an extremely virtuous guy. Going back to point one, I get the impression that Superman's not involved in the dumb decisions the leaders made because Superman would never let something like that happen under his watch.

4. Kal and Kon's relationship has continued to grow for the better, which made me happy.

5. Conner is well past the stage of being angry all the time. I like that he's matured and is almost serene. As the show says, he's become like Superman.

Cons:
1. As great as it is to see that Superman's not a bumbling leader, he's got very little presence as a leader at all. In the YJ universe, the Justice League has a revolving door of chairmen. Batman was the dude in S1, I believe it was Captain Atom in S2, and this season the JL co-chairs were WW and Kaldur Aquaman. I'm guessing that in the YJ universe, Superman's turn as chairman was a long time ago, so even in S4 we likely won't see him in any leadership position, as that's going to be Black Lightning's job.

2. More mind-controlled Superman. I actually liked the plot in the finale of S1 when the Light used Starro-based tech to mind control the League. To be fair, the mind-controlling plot in S1 was a lot more important than the one in YJO, but when you look at how little airtime Superman gets (which makes sense, because the show is called "Young Justice" and not "Superman" or "Justice League"), I was hoping S1 would be the only instance we'd see Superman under someone else's control. No such luck.

3. Also taking its cue from the JL cartoon and DCAU, Superman immediately starts choking in space.

4. Every season of YJ feels like a brand new show. YJ Invasion still kept the core heroes from S1, but it focused a lot on the new characters (I mockingly called YJI "Beetlemania"). YJO follows the trend of jumping ahead a few years into the future, retaining the core S1 and S2 guys, but then mostly focusing on the new heroes for the season. This generally doesn't work great for me. I still like S1 the most, and much of that was because they really hit it out of the park with the young heroes. YJI skipped five years (really, really formative years for heroes of that age) and spread the screen time across. So, fans of the S1 characters have to settle for the continually-shrinking presence of the S1 heroes, meaning there's not a lot of Superboy you'd get to see. And as for Superman, well, he doesn't do squat in his limited air time.

A more broad critique I'd make about the show is that its overarching plot involving the Light and Darkseid is really ambitious, and in a lot of ways it'd be more appropriate for a JL show than a YJ show. Luthor was one of the primary antagonists, more so this season than prior, and for me at least it's kind of dissatisfying to see him used as someone other than Superman's enemy. And in terms of thwarting Darkseid's quest for the Anti-Life Equation, that is more something that should be on the JL's plate, and not the younger heroes. But since it's a show about the young heroes, then the JL are going to be a bunch of bystanders, which after the recent line of animated movies from 2013-2019, I'm not that eager to watch the supposed A-Team play second fiddle to another group of lesser-experienced heroes.

I guess another critique I'd add is that the on-the-nose comparisons between Luthor and the outgoing 45th president really did nothing for me. Kind of wish they took a pass on that.

Overall, I had some mixed feelings about the show. The quality of the writing is still there, so that was nice, but I have no real hopes that I'll enjoy S4 anywhere close to how much I enjoyed S1.

EDIT: Another nitpick I have is that alllllll of the villains seeeeeeeem to talk sooooooooo sloooooowly.

[Frontier]

I wish the show had done more with Lois before she shows up for the first time on-screen with a baby (because I guess her relevancy on this show is mostly as Supes' wife and Jon's mom). I mean, they even have Grey Griffin playing her again for, what, the 15th time? I love Grey Griffin, but that doesn't show a lot of creativity .

And it was weird that they didn't come up at all during Clark and Conner's talk in the back-half of the season.

[superduperman]

I thought this was the weakest season, honestly. The New Gods thing felt shoehorned in and not really all that important to the main plot. It almost feels like the showrunners don't really want to do it anymore.

[Frontier]

I thought this was the weakest season, honestly. The New Gods thing felt shoehorned in and not really all that important to the main plot. It almost feels like the showrunners don't really want to do it anymore.

They did the Furies dirty.

[Jackalope89]

I thought this was the weakest season, honestly. The New Gods thing felt shoehorned in and not really all that important to the main plot. It almost feels like the showrunners don't really want to do it anymore.

Compared to the previous 2 seasons, they had a smaller budget to work with. That's probably a big reason, as prior, Greg Weisman was pushing pretty hard for people to watch seasons 1 and 2 for a chance to do season 3.

[Lukmendes]

I wish the show had done more with Lois before she shows up for the first time on-screen with a baby (because I guess her relevancy on this show is mostly as Supes' wife and Jon's mom). I mean, they even have Grey Griffin playing her again for, what, the 15th time? I love Grey Griffin, but that doesn't show a lot of creativity .

And it was weird that they didn't come up at all during Clark and Conner's talk in the back-half of the season.

Supes has the short end of the stick when it comes to development... To think that season 3 actually treats him better than the rest, and that's not saying much lol.

I thought this was the weakest season, honestly. The New Gods thing felt shoehorned in and not really all that important to the main plot. It almost feels like the showrunners don't really want to do it anymore.

Yeah, New Gods **** only felt relevant for Forager to be part of the Team, once that was done, the stopped showing up.

Didn't watch the show but sounds like the creators didn't learn from season 2 with too large a cast size.

I also didn't care for the time jump in season 2, felt like a quick and easy way to say characters have had development.

It's possible they still won't have learned that, 'cause season 3 ends with zoom in a character's hand who has a Legion Flight Ring, so yeah, Legion's gonna be around, hopefully not too many members...

They did the Furies dirty.

Outside of Barda showing up, I don't even remember the Furies there, did they just get jobbed?

Compared to the previous 2 seasons, they had a smaller budget to work with. That's probably a big reason, as prior, Greg Weisman was pushing pretty hard for people to watch seasons 1 and 2 for a chance to do season 3.

It's ironic to have a smaller budget, and at the same time, use the more detailed character design styles from the New 52 movies, because that certainly won't help out with the animation, and budget...

[Frontier]

Outside of Barda showing up, I don't even remember the Furies there, did they just get jobbed?

Their big "fight" at the end of the season is basically just a goofy gag more than it is an actual fight, and because they ran out of budget it was mostly a bunch of still shots.

[Gaius]

Didn't watch the show but sounds like the creators didn't learn from season 2 with too large a cast size.

I also didn't care for the time jump in season 2, felt like a quick and easy way to say characters have had development.

[Digifiend]

3. Also taking its cue from the JL cartoon and DCAU, Superman immediately starts choking in space.

That happened in the Arrowverse too - Supergirl can't breathe in space natively, so she needs to wear a special suit that was originally created when the air was poisoned with kryptonite. The suit serves the same purpose in space as it did then - allows her to breathe clean air.

[superduperman]

No one actually "breathes" in space. And if I remember the scene correctly, it was a sudden thing he wasn't prepared for. We don't know what this Superman's limits are since he isn't featured much. He held up a bridge on his own pretty easily. Something the DCAU Superman would have trouble doing. Even post-Crisis Superman held his breathe in space for a think a couple hours or something like that.

[Stanlos]

No one actually "breathes" in space. And if I remember the scene correctly, it was a sudden thing he wasn't prepared for. We don't know what this Superman's limits are since he isn't featured much. He held up a bridge on his own pretty easily. Something the DCAU Superman would have trouble doing. Even post-Crisis Superman held his breathe in space for a think a couple hours or something like that.

It seems like Supes, Wondy, and Captain Marvel just don't get a lot of screen time and when they do they are kind of in jobber mode

[Lukmendes]

Phantoms by far has been the most Super focused of the seasons since S1, and S5 (if it happens) looks like it’s going to be another Superfamily focused season. Just need Steel to get some more focus besides a brief cameo.

Wouldn't overtrust YJ, they made a big deal out of Jefferson becoming the League's leader and uh, I don't think he did anything lol.

Doesn't help if they did nothing with Brion besides giving Garfield PTSD.

Also worth pointing out how about everyone expected season 3 would have war with Apokolips and nothing happened.

My point is, don't expect them to actually follow up on what's implied, YJ has a weird habit of not doing so.

Not a great season for Zatanna, Rocket, and Nightwing, but a surprisingly good Superfamily focused season.

If that's the case, if they actually planned to have Kara be introduced in season 3, maybe they should have done so even if she did nothing, at least she could have something to do here.

It seems like Supes, Wondy, and Captain Marvel just don't get a lot of screen time and when they do they are kind of in jobber mode

At least Billy got to do something back in season 1, Supes and Diana are useless in combat.

Season 1 might have the worst showing, considering it took them 4 hours to defeat Amazo, while it took the Team about one hour tops (And most of that was just Conner getting beaten up), and what we see of the fight is just Amazo grabbing Supes, spinning him around, and the rest of the league running into that like a bunch of dumb fucks.

At the very least, Supes' characterization improves little by little per season, season 4 included (As far as I watched at least), Diana actually became worse 'cause of season 3.

[Adekis]

At the very least, Supes' characterization improves little by little per season, season 4 included (As far as I watched at least), Diana actually became worse 'cause of season 3.

That's good to know. I was so bloody frustrated with his characterization in the first two seasons, but pleasantly surprised by Outsiders. I haven't seen Phantoms yet but if that's true, I'll be pretty happy about it.

[Frontier]

Wouldn't overtrust YJ, they made a big deal out of Jefferson becoming the League's leader and uh, I don't think he did anything lol.

It it is kind of hilarious how Jefferson was such a major character in season 3, becomes leader of the League, and then fades into the background until literally the last few episodes.

[Vordan]

Wouldn't overtrust YJ, they made a big deal out of Jefferson becoming the League's leader and uh, I don't think he did anything lol.

He did not lmao. But really only the S1 core actually matters, and the S4 cliffhanger is something that would affect Conner and the Superfamily in a major way, so I do think that guarantees a follow up.

Also worth pointing out how about everyone expected season 3 would have war with Apokolips and nothing happened.

My point is, don't expect them to actually follow up on what's implied, YJ has a weird habit of not doing so.

Spoilers for the finale
spoilers:

Kara being under Darkseid’s control as a Fury demands a follow up though. You can ignore BL being a “leader” because he’s not really part of The Team, and the show isn’t really about the JL, but Conner learning about his aunt(?)/cousin(?) is something that is going to demand a response from him and the rest of the Els. Clark’s going to lose his **** when he finds out, and Conner has a personal connection there because he was made to be a weapon by the Light and Kara has been turned into a weapon for Darkseid herself because of the Light. Easy storyline to get Conner invested

end of spoilers

That said I totally agree that Weisman may give us a shitty unsatisfactorily resolution to this plot line, which is why I’m not going to be too upset if S4 is the end. But I don’t think they’ll completely skip over it in the next season.

At least Billy got to do something back in season 1, Supes and Diana are useless in combat.

Season 1 might have the worst showing, considering it took them 4 hours to defeat Amazo, while it took the Team about one hour tops (And most of that was just Conner getting beaten up), and what we see of the fight is just Amazo grabbing Supes, spinning him around, and the rest of the league running into that like a bunch of dumb fucks.

At the very least, Supes' characterization improves little by little per season, season 4 included (As far as I watched at least), Diana actually became worse 'cause of season 3.

Clark’s been more involved as time passed which is nice, I’ll always be pissed they completely skipped over him and Conner bonding, what a stupid decision.