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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    I don't think superman and supergirl should be stronger than her. And supergirl we have seen her defeated by Wonder Woman more than once already.
    I think you could make Superman physically stronger to a degree, just give Wonder Woman a higher combat speed as a trade off for example, i don't think there would be any problem if Superman could lift the earth but Wonder Woman just the venus and then could Wonder Woman maybe fight 3,3 times faster than light in an effective way but Superman just 3 times. I doubt at such a point would any person complain about a lack of power. And you could even make Supergirl physically a bit stronger, at least if DC would stop to always power her so hard down in comparison with Superman sooner or later, or let him left her so far behind.

    But the true problem is that this discussion is not about different sizes for lifted planets, or slight differences in multiple times of lightspeed, we are talking about gods who have the feeling of more magical Spider-Man villains, villains all the way down to genuine street level threats who are sometimes even just guests, and we are probably also talking about wrecking balls that hurt and planes that are hard to lift for someone who literally fights gods as part of her theme.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Diana can have the physical stats of a God, the skills of a world class fighter, and OP gear; she can have all of that and still have drama, suspense, and struggle in her stories. All it takes is a bit of creativity.
    Isn't that the problem? There are lots of characters in the DC Universe with the powers of a "god" or atleast abilities that can overcome a god. That's why she's losing.

  3. #48
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    You seem to be more in line with the mentality of current DC. Making sure that WW isn't allowed to be equal to certain top guns, for no reason other than. yeah i see no reason for that at all. Marston wanted her to be as strong as SM. And based on actual feats. She is above supergirl. I don't understand this mentality that WW must be weaker than kryptonians, when she is supposed to be on that level and not below.
    It's not just current DC.

    Marston's intentions are all well and good, but he has no say in how strong Superman is relative to anyone else. Neither Superman's creators nor DC as a whole once they acquired exclusive rights to all the characters and put them in the same universe really commit to the idea that any hero is exactly equal to Superman in terms of strength, though some may come close. So she's not "supposed" to be since Marston lost control of the character before the shared universe stuff even started taking off. And for the vast majority of the publishing history, he's been stronger though the degree to which he is stronger. Saying she's supposed to be exactly as strong is pretty much fanfic at this point.

    That doesn't mean DC isn't good at finding ways of screwing her over even at the "slightly below Superman in strength" level. Because they certainly are. Being slightly weaker than Superman but still one of the top tier isn't the problem, it's when they decide she should get shot by a handgun in a JL comic or when Batman can kick her in the stomach that the real problems emerge.

  4. #49
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Isn't that the problem? There are lots of characters in the DC Universe with the powers of a "god" or atleast abilities that can overcome a god. That's why she's losing.
    No. The problem is the lack of interest in her own editors to put the effort to represent her character and world properly. Too many characters with God like powers, yet she is the only one getting the short end of the stick? Why only her? We could turn it around and say the same about martian manhunter, green lanterns, the kryptonians etc. Why don't they get nerfed then? Since there are "too many" God like beings? Apparently everybody can be writen as a proper powerhouse these days except WW, because no if she is writen like she used to be. She is too similar to all the others. All the others can keep their power, as long as wondy is nerfed then diversity is safe or whatever. Sorry but that logic doesn't make sense. WW is not just another God like character. She is the most iconic super heroine of all time. Been around since 1941 and created to be very powerful right from the start. All of this should give her a better treatment than what she is getting currently. Basically put their money where their mouth is. That's what fans want from DC. Stop with just giving lipb service and nothing more.

  5. #50
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    The Kryptonians and the Marvel family are all pretty nerfed compared to the stuff they used to pull in the old comics. Morrison's Green Lantern run is also the first in a while that is really leaning into the OTT stuff the ring can do, and who knows how long that will last after they leave.

  6. #51
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's not just current DC.

    Marston's intentions are all well and good, but he has no say in how strong Superman is relative to anyone else. Neither Superman's creators nor DC as a whole once they acquired exclusive rights to all the characters and put them in the same universe really commit to the idea that any hero is exactly equal to Superman in terms of strength, though some may come close. So she's not "supposed" to be since Marston lost control of the character before the shared universe stuff even started taking off. And for the vast majority of the publishing history, he's been stronger though the degree to which he is stronger. Saying she's supposed to be exactly as strong is pretty much fanfic at this point.

    That doesn't mean DC isn't good at finding ways of screwing her over even at the "slightly below Superman in strength" level. Because they certainly are. Being slightly weaker than Superman but still one of the top tier isn't the problem, it's when they decide she should get shot by a handgun in a JL comic or when Batman can kick her in the stomach that the real problems emerge.
    The same appllies to others. Why should anybody get to say that WW can't be as strong as Superman? In DC she has been compared to him and called a power peer to him a lot of times. So why should we settle for less? You say it doesn't take anything away from her being just a little weaker than sm. Well, it doesn't take anything away from sm if she is just as strong as him. I want DC to put their money where their mouth is. Because as things stand right now. Not only she is not equal to sm. She doesn't feel like a powerhouse at all.
    Last edited by mystical41; 12-02-2020 at 05:23 PM.

  7. #52
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    I think you could make Superman physically stronger to a degree, just give Wonder Woman a higher combat speed as a trade off for example, i don't think there would be any problem if Superman could lift the earth but Wonder Woman just the venus and then could Wonder Woman maybe fight 3,3 times faster than light in an effective way but Superman just 3 times. I doubt at such a point would any person complain about a lack of power. And you could even make Supergirl physically a bit stronger, at least if DC would stop to always power her so hard down in comparison with Superman sooner or later, or let him left her so far behind.

    But the true problem is that this discussion is not about different sizes for lifted planets, or slight differences in multiple times of lightspeed, we are talking about gods who have the feeling of more magical Spider-Man villains, villains all the way down to genuine street level threats who are sometimes even just guests, and we are probably also talking about wrecking balls that hurt and planes that are hard to lift for someone who literally fights gods as part of her theme.
    What you say about supergirl applies to WW too. DC should stop powering WW down so much compared to sm. As it stands, i see no reason why WW has to be weaker than sm and specially weaker than supergirl, who WW has already outdone in battle more than once. It's always WW the one that some people seem to think that has to be brought down a notch. And i don't agree with that.

  8. #53
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Okay, guys, lots of deletions this evening.

    1. The topic is WW in the comics, not the movies.
    2. Spoilers for the movie do NOT belong in this thread. There's a stickied thread for such information.

    Please refrain from posting any spoilers openly in any thread.

    Thank you!
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  9. #54
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    The same appllies to others. Why should anybody get to say that WW can't be as strong as Superman? In DC she has been compared to him and called a power peer to him a lot of times. So why should we settle for less? You say it doesn't take anything away from her being just a little weaker than sm. Well, it doesn't take anything away from sm if she is just as strong as him. I want DC to put their money where their mouth is. Because as things stand right now. Not only she is not equal to sm. She doesn't feel like a powerhouse at all.
    DC gets to say that because they own both characters, and they've only rarely said she's an exact equal to him. They don't have to put their money where their mouth is because they are not creating the expectation that she is perfectly as strong as him. It's been that way for 80 odd years, to say otherwise is pretty much just head canon and asking for something without too much basis.

    And what fans are asking for is not for her to be equal, they actually want her to be stronger. Because she lacks his weaknesses and is a better fighter. Her not being treated as a powerhouse when factoring in these differences is a separate issue. And it doesn't have anything to do with Superman. Cheetah and Giganta should be treated as competent power houses but sometimes they are not even in her own book (or in Bloodlines), Ares and Circe aren't always treated much better, and it's hard to tell how effective her other classic villains could be since they are rarely/never used. I don't want to see any guest villains until they get her own rogues gallery sorted out, but if we do it should be the likes of Black Adam, Zod or Mongul who she should be able to handle in her own way despite being not quite as strong as Superman. Weirdly, despite Superman being a supposed problem, we don't often see her villains jobbing to him but we do sometimes see the reverse. Meanwhile, Cheetah is getting shot by Jason Todd which is a far bigger issue.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 12-02-2020 at 08:03 PM.

  10. #55
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    DC gets to say that because they own both characters, and they've only rarely said she's an exact equal to him. They don't have to put their money where their mouth is because they are not creating the expectation that she is perfectly as strong as him. It's been that way for 80 odd years, to say otherwise is pretty much just head canon and asking for something without too much basis.

    And what fans are asking for is not for her to be equal, they actually want her to be stronger. Because she lacks his weaknesses and is a better fighter. Her not being treated as a powerhouse when factoring in these differences is a separate issue. And it doesn't have anything to do with Superman. Cheetah and Giganta should be treated as competent power houses but sometimes they are not even in her own book (or in Bloodlines), Ares and Circe aren't always treated much better, and it's hard to tell how effective her other classic villains could be since they are rarely/never used. I don't want to see any guest villains until they get her own rogues gallery sorted out, but if we do it should be the likes of Black Adam, Zod or Mongul who she should be able to handle in her own way despite being not quite as strong as Superman. Weirdly, despite Superman being a supposed problem, we don't often see her villains jobbing to him but we do sometimes see the reverse. Meanwhile, Cheetah is getting shot by Jason Todd which is a far bigger issue.
    But it's not DC. You were the one who said here that she should be weaker than sm and sg. As far as DC goes. WW is above sg, since she has better feats, has defeated sg in combat and is consisntently called the strongest heroine by DC.

    As for superman. It's also DC who constantly says she is in his power tier. But they haven't shown it for a while. So yes, i think they should put their money where their mouth is.

    The treatment of her villains is pretty much the same issue. But a heroe is as good as his/her villains. If WW barely gets any respect in terms of power these days, how can i expect better for her villains? Remember that they also allowed WW to get shot and almost die from that in one jl issue. So it is a never ending circle, and i can't understand why none of the heads at DC puts even the slightest effort into trying to do better with her verse.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    But it's not DC. You were the one who said here that she should be weaker than sm and sg. As far as DC goes. WW is above sg, since she has better feats, has defeated sg in combat and is consisntently called the strongest heroine by DC.

    As for superman. It's also DC who constantly says she is in his power tier. But they haven't shown it for a while. So yes, i think they should put their money where their mouth is.

    The treatment of her villains is pretty much the same issue. But a heroe is as good as his/her villains. If WW barely gets any respect in terms of power these days, how can i expect better for her villains? Remember that they also allowed WW to get shot and almost die from that in one jl issue. So it is a never ending circle, and i can't understand why none of the heads at DC puts even the slightest effort into trying to do better with her verse.
    Part of the thing is that DC keeps taking stuff from Clark and giving it away piecemeal. He keeps getting scaled back, his unique quality of being the inspiration of the Legion got given to Jon, his villains are given to Kara in the TV show and the Justice League in comics. He lost his intelligence. He isn't first (this was given to other heroes Post-Crisis and it's Diana now), etc.

    The one thing fans and DC generally let him keep is his strength. Of Earth's heroes, he benches the most. It's the one thing he still gets to be the best at, so a lot of his fans don't want to see it go and see the OG of the genre reduced to "the guy who is pretty good at stuff but not the best at anything" when he spent his entire career taking something from his plate and handing it off so others can be stronger for it. He already feels like Boxer from Animal Farm with how often TPTB mangle him in adaptions and have him lose to everyone.

    I know Diana gets humbled a lot. I'm not here to say she isn't, but she already would absolutely wreck Superman's ass in fighting ability. For my money, she doesn't get pierced by bullets (and I ignore books where she does) so really his raw stats are kind of all Clark's got going for him. He started the genre's boom. Diana and Bruce are direct responses to him. It's not wrong to want him to still be special in-universe just like how even people who may actually have reason to be more effective than Diana (like some should with Clark) generally are expected/desired to lose to her because, well, she's Wonder Woman.

    To answer the OP, modern DC thinks and has conditioned readers so they only care about street level heroes/villains, so perhaps they think it'll help boost her signal.
    Last edited by Robanker; 12-02-2020 at 09:43 PM.

  12. #57
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post


    Part of the thing is that DC keeps taking stuff from Clark and giving it away piecemeal. He keeps getting scaled back, his unique quality of being the inspiration of the Legion got given to Jon, his villains are given to Kara in the TV show and the Justice League in comics. He lost his intelligence. He isn't first (this was given to other heroes Post-Crisis and it's Diana now), etc.

    The one thing fans and DC generally let him keep is his strength. Of Earth's heroes, he benches the most. It's the one thing he still gets to be the best at, so a lot of his fans don't want to see it go and see the OG of the genre reduced to "the guy who is pretty good at stuff but not the best at anything" when he spent his entire career taking something from his plate and handing it off so others can be stronger for it. He already feels like Boxer from Animal Farm with how often TPTB mangle him in adaptions and have him lose to everyone.

    I know Diana gets humbled a lot. I'm not here to say she isn't, but she already would absolutely wreck Superman's ass in fighting ability. For my money, she doesn't get pierced by bullets (and I ignore books where she does) so really his raw stats are kind of all Clark's got going for him. He started the genre's boom. Diana and Bruce are direct responses to him. It's not wrong to want him to still be special in-universe just like how even people who may actually have reason to be more effective than Diana (like some should with Clark) generally are expected/desired to lose to her because, well, she's Wonder Woman.

    To answer the OP, modern DC thinks and has conditioned readers so they only care about street level heroes/villains, so perhaps they think it'll help boost her signal.
    She has been dealing with street levelers for a while and sales aren't boosting. Plus other powerhouses are not being treated like this at DC.

    I'm not even asking to see her wrecking superman. I just want to see what DC says she is(and used to be). And that is a powerhouse Diana. I want to feel the epic and powerful action in big adventures. DC keeps saying how she is so powerful and skill, yet they show almost nothing outside of sword and shield. My issue is that i'm tired of empty promises. Tired of being deceived by DC. If they want Super human xena, fine i like xena. But i want them to be honest. Don't want them to keep promesing things that aren't their real intentions for the character. Don't keep telling us that she is very poewerful Goddess that can face big threats on her own, only to constantly water down her power in any event that would call for her so called Godly power.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    This makes the most sense, super strength and flight should be an AFTERTHOUGHT, not the focus...I often forget that Martian Manhunter is supposed to have super strength because telepathy and shapeshifting are on the forefront more often. Writers often have problems thinking of interesting uses for the lasso (I actually find swinging from lightning bolts and clouds to be rather charming).
    If that's the case, maybe the Lasso should be the afterthought.

    I don't actually believe that but that's because it's as ludicrous as saying that powers Diana has had for decades should be an afterthought.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-02-2020 at 10:21 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post

    And what fans are asking for is not for her to be equal, they actually want her to be stronger. Because she lacks his weaknesses and is a better fighter. Her not being treated as a powerhouse when factoring in these differences is a separate issue. And it doesn't have anything to do with Superman. Cheetah and Giganta should be treated as competent power houses but sometimes they are not even in her own book (or in Bloodlines), Ares and Circe aren't always treated much better, and it's hard to tell how effective her other classic villains could be since they are rarely/never used. I don't want to see any guest villains until they get her own rogues gallery sorted out, but if we do it should be the likes of Black Adam, Zod or Mongul who she should be able to handle in her own way despite being not quite as strong as Superman. Weirdly, despite Superman being a supposed problem, we don't often see her villains jobbing to him but we do sometimes see the reverse. Meanwhile, Cheetah is getting shot by Jason Todd which is a far bigger issue.
    Not having his weaknesses is not the same thing as not having weaknesses or limits of her own.

    And aside from when Cheetah took down the League in Johns's run, when has Superman ever jobbed to WW villains?
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-02-2020 at 10:28 PM.

  15. #60
    Incredible Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And aside from when Cheetah took down the League in Johns's run, when has Superman ever jobbed to WW villains?
    To Boy Cheetah in Jimenez' run?

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