Why is WW fighting street levelers from other heroes rogue galleries lately?

[SiegePerilous02]

Lol, the details you forget when you only watch a movie once.

But yeah, I don't think one should hold the movies not having insane feats against them when they're not what are important to most general audiences really. Like you said MoS is the first film that really showed how powerful a Krpytonian could be and that's not really what audiences walked away from talking about.

Either that or he linked his phone to something lol, I dunno I can't remember. Whichever, it was the only detecting the "World's Greatest Detective" did.

We also have to remember budget and where its applied. I think this film had a bigger budget than the first, but we don't necessarily know if a CGI Gal Gadot doing the feats some people want will still look good compared to pulling off the smaller scale stuff and making it look great.

Kind of why, while I wish the Amazons had their tech in the first film, I don't hold it against it for leaning more towards the Perez run since if they didn't have the budget to make it look good and it was just some CGI eye sore, it wouldn't be worth it compared to what we got. We know WB expected the first one to fail, and they don't have access to the same level of special effects the MCU does at this point anyway

[WonderLight789]

I think there maybe some massive influence from the movies. The only Wondy appearance that made her seem legit powerful was in BvS. Even her fight against Ares was lackluster as they were just throwing crap at each other, with Dumbsday she got some serious hits in most people thought she was superior than Superman in that fight. Her own movie had her fight cannon fodder 90% of the time, and its not like in the Perez comic where Ares turned all the soldiers into flaming demon skeletons. Not to mention she doesn't fly as often as she use to in the books and that decrease was real recent.

I mean even in Nando's retelling of Justice League (the youtuber), he had her struggle with Deathstroke..... so clearly the perception of Diana being a Daughter of Zeus or even a demigoddess doesn't push writers to put her in more "superman level" situations. In Death Battle they use her post-crisis feats for her strength, speed, and durability; absolutely nothing from the Nu-52 or onwards save the sword.

I definitely think there is this "I don't care" attitude in the editorial room when it comes to what she's in or what she's doing. In JLark Diana entered her witch mode and fought the Upsidedown Man, a multiversal level being. At the same time in her own book... she got into a car accident, didn't fly, and only stopped a nuke off panel. I mean that's a dramatic power difference.

I don't think the film is to blame. WW has been suffering from this since that awful reboot in 2011. Plus characters like superman, thor etc also get to show their power in big ways. Even when their movie versions are nowhere near that level that we see for them in the comics. So i don't know why it is so hard for WW these days, to face opponents of a better caliber. If she still is supposed to be one of DC's top guns, then this shouldn't be too much to ask.

[WonderLight789]

The latest agent of peace issue is another example. What is a Goddess doing in a fight with black manta? I don't want to sound picky. But it's like she is never allowed to feel powerful these days. She doesn't even have flight in that issue. It's like writers nowadays always feel the need to take power away from her. This doesn't happen to others as often as it is happening to her.

[Agent Z]

Link to the article where Morrison said the power level was the problem?

It wasn't so much the power level they were complaining about but rather the assumption that Diana being a fighter was a "boy story".

In the Wonder Woman book I’m doing, for instance, I’ve actively avoided writing the boy hero story that’s so ubiquitous as to seem inescapable — the familiar story of the One, the champion, the Joseph Campbell monomyth thing that drives so many Hollywood movies and YA stories. We’ve seen it. The Lion King. The callow youth loses mom or dad, or his comfortable place in the tribe, and he has to fight his way back to save the kingdom from its corrupt old leader, before claiming the captive princess and becoming the new king and… ad infinitum. The Circle of Life if it only applied to boys. I thought, where is the mythic heroine’s story? In Ishtar Rising, Wilson talks about the myth of Inanna, and how she goes down into Hell and has to give up everything of herself to gain the wisdom and experience she can bring back to her tribe. Privileging the network rather than the sovereign individual.

And so, as I thought about the differences between the hero’s and the heroine’s journey, it gave me a bunch of different modes to work in. Finding ways to avoid telling the boy hero story again was quite liberating. It just gave me a bunch of new ideas, an interesting new way of telling stories that didn’t rely on the framework of the hero’s journey that Campbell talks about.

https://www.mondo2000.com/2020/10/26...-age-of-horus/

Bare in mind that Diana's origin doesn't involve the death of her mother and the loss of her kingdom. And the story they wrote in Earth One is really nothing like the myth of Innana at all.

And of course, there's the wrongheaded idea of what is a boy story and a girl story. For a progressive writer, Morrison is surprisingly androcentric and small-minded about what stories you can tell with male and female characters.

Because I know they've had issues with the use of swords, but I don't see how that's different than how Jenkins and Gadot feel, or how Perez or Jimenez feel she should be written.

I don't recall Perez complaining about the sword and Jiminez wrote her using one in his run. As I've said, the sword is a convenient scapegoat. Writers are more than capable of writing her badly without it.

I don't see the point on blaming the Marston run here. Outside of not being able to fly yet, but she was among her most powerful incarnations.

Fair but, there seems to be a correlation between overpraising the Marston run and powering her down. As I said, there is this idea among certain writers of a powerful and competent Diana glorifying masculinity. She isn't the only female character who gets accused of this by the way.

And the use of the plane was simple then, she needed it and it showed off Amazon tech. Even if she flies now, I don't see why continuity can be allowed to acknowledge that she at one point needed it. The confusion of the plane has always been in itself confusing.

I think it would be best to give it to another Amazon supporting character who can't fly. Also, no continuity since post crisis has shown her as needing the plane before she gets flight as far as I can recall. She either has flight from the get go or gets it relatively early.

[WonderLight789]

It wasn't so much the power level they were complaining about but rather the assumption that Diana being a fighter was a "boy story".



https://www.mondo2000.com/2020/10/26...-age-of-horus/

Bare in mind that Diana's origin doesn't involve the death of her mother and the loss of her kingdom. And the story they wrote in Earth One is really nothing like the myth of Innana at all.

And of course, there's the wrongheaded idea of what is a boy story and a girl story. For a progressive writer, Morrison is surprisingly androcentric and small-minded about what stories you can tell with male and female characters.


I don't recall Perez complaining about the sword and Jiminez wrote her using one in his run. As I've said, the sword is a convenient scapegoat. Writers are more than capable of writing her badly without it.



Fair but, there seems to be a correlation between overpraising the Marston run and powering her down. As I said, there is this idea among certain writers of a powerful and competent Diana glorifying masculinity. She isn't the only female character who gets accused of this by the way.



I think it would be best to give it to another Amazon supporting character who can't fly. Also, no continuity since post crisis has shown her as needing the plane before she gets flight as far as I can recall. She either has flight from the get go or gets it relatively early.

But i don't understand. Marston meant for her to be very powerful and that is how she was shown. She wasn't any less of a hero or a woman because of that. So i don't understand why would anybody find WW being portrayed as a powerhouse a problematic situation for her feminist message. When one of the ways that Marston had to deliver that message, was showing her as a very powerful woman who can hang with the male top guns. I no longer have faith in a writer no matter if they are big names or not. It can't be that all writers think the limits of a so called Goddess should be fighting vertigo, slade, simple robbers and humans with some TP powers. I have no idea how this chain can be broken. But i wish it could be broken because as a long time fan. I haven't been fully excited with her in a long time, and it truly makes me sad to feel that way about my fav hero.

[SiegePerilous02]

It wasn't so much the power level they were complaining about but rather the assumption that Diana being a fighter was a "boy story".



https://www.mondo2000.com/2020/10/26...-age-of-horus/

Bare in mind that Diana's origin doesn't involve the death of her mother and the loss of her kingdom. And the story they wrote in Earth One is really nothing like the myth of Innana at all.

And of course, there's the wrongheaded idea of what is a boy story and a girl story. For a progressive writer, Morrison is surprisingly androcentric and small-minded about what stories you can tell with male and female characters.

I don't know if we can extrapolate that they don't want Diana to be a fighter based on one mention of the word "fight" when describing the typical Joseph Cambpbell narrative which IS mostly applied to boy heroes. Diana still is a capable fighter and has strength within the work itself so its not like they took that aspect away from her. Hero stories tend to downplay feminine aspects as being positive or things that have worth. It's why when creating a "strong female character," it's why some writers just write a woman as a an ultra tough badass but not a well rounded person. She has to kick as much ass as a man and do it the same way as men to have worth, or else she's just the prize for the male hero like in the Joseph Campbell tropes, etc. It's why Wonder Woman as a powerful hero who embraces femininity and makes it cool, as well as being a well rounded female character, makes her cool. It's a big reason for Sailor Moon's success as well.

Morrison is a progressive writer who is still human and misses the mark (including in this line of books), but I think this overly simplifying what they're saying to come to a "girls aren't allowed to fight" takeaway

I don't recall Perez complaining about the sword and Jiminez wrote her using one in his run. As I've said, the sword is a convenient scapegoat. Writers are more than capable of writing her badly without it.

Neither one complained about it, but they also didn't make it a regular thing either. Because in most situations, she has no need for it. Jimenez may have used the sword in the OWAW crossover issues I can't recall, but I don't believe it shows up much if at all later in the run. She wields it on one of the covers, but thats it.

She can be written poorly without it true, but I think its presence makes it eve easier for some like Johns early in the New 52. She has no need for it in most situations, if she wants to bring it against someone like Gundra (who also has a sword) or a big monster like Doomsday, that's fine. But the average supervillain she faces? Why use it if she's not going to chop of a limb?

I think it would be best to give it to another Amazon supporting character who can't fly. Also, no continuity since post crisis has shown her as needing the plane before she gets flight as far as I can recall. She either has flight from the get go or gets it relatively early.

Because it's her iconography, not another Amazons, and it's not going away. it may even have a role in the movie. This is why the continuity changes create messes, because her needing it early on was straight forward: she couldn't fly. Then she can gain the power later and just keep it in reserve and then another Amazons (or Steve) can borrower it. But it has fans and should be allowed a simple place in her history even if she doesn't use it in the present. That's not asking for much.

[Agent Z]

I don't know if we can extrapolate that they don't want Diana to be a fighter based on one mention of the word "fight" when describing the typical Joseph Cambpbell narrative which IS mostly applied to boy heroes. Diana still is a capable fighter and has strength within the work itself so its not like they took that aspect away from her. Hero stories tend to downplay feminine aspects as being positive or things that have worth.

I think the fact that being strong and a capable fighter are viewed as things that aren't feminine are kind of the problem in the first place.

[Gaius]

I think Perez has commented he's noted more people started drawing Diana with a sword/shield over the lasso but he also joked he was the first one who made Diana with a sword a popular image. So double-edged sword there

Jimenez I think has just more talked about how Diana's warrior image has never really been his view on the character but he gets why some are in to it.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think the fact that being strong and a capable fighter are viewed as things that aren't feminine are kind of the problem in the first place.

Fighting is only one of the things they mention when describing the typically male-centric Joseph Campbell journey, and not even the main takeaway though. That statement doesn't say that being strong and a capable fighter are masculine or feminine, but fighting to claim glory or revenge and win a princess as a "prize" does play a role in a lot of typical male power fantasies (like Heracles) when added together a certain way.

Their main point should have been that the Joseph Campbell cycle is overused in general, and it is frequently paired up with boy heroes in stories written by and consumed by male nerds and starring male characters. That isn't to say the stories don't have broad appeal or can't be applied to female characters. But other types of stories, whether they be aimed at male or female audiences or universal, should be encouraged and given equal merit.

But like in the actual comic it's not like she avoids fighting when has to, or like you say that the Innana stuff isn't even present, so isn't saying this stuff a supplemental interview most people aren't going to read anyway kind of moot? They also don't say Wonder Woman in general (not just their or Marston's runs) use the Campbell model that they're trying to avoid.

[Vordan]

I think Perez has commented he's noted more people started drawing Diana with a sword/shield over the lasso but he also joked he was the first one who made Diana with a sword a popular image. So double-edged sword there

Jimenez I think has just more talked about how Diana's warrior image has never really been his view on the character but he gets why some are in to it.

Jimenez was on Word Balloon a while back and said WW can be about love & sex or war, and most male writers and readers are more comfortable with war than about love & sex

[Agent Z]

Jimenez was on Word Balloon a while back and said WW can be about love & sex or war, and most male writers and readers are more comfortable with war than about love & sex

Love maybe but I doubt sex is a turn off given how popular characters like Vampirella, Lady Death and Starfire are among male audiences.

[WonderLight789]

And let's not forget that according to reviews from people like grace. WW84 doesn't seem to have many action scenes. So is WW cursed or what? Not even in her own movie she can be portrayed as a powerhouse nowadays? And here i was, hoping that a more powerful WW with no sword and shield in WW84 could help us to get rid off them in the comics.

[Vordan]

Love maybe but I doubt sex is a turn off given how popular characters like Vampirella, Lady Death and Starfire are among male audiences.

It is if you write Diana as the dominant one in the relationship.

[Agent Z]

And let's not forget that according to reviews from people like grace. WW84 doesn't seem to have many action scenes. So is WW cursed or what? Not even in her own movie she can be portrayed as a powerhouse nowadays? And here i was, hoping that a more powerful WW with no sword and shield in WW84 could help us to get rid off them in the comics.

I'll wait and see until the film is out.

[Robanker]

Jimenez was on Word Balloon a while back and said WW can be about love & sex or war, and most male writers and readers are more comfortable with war than about love & sex

If that's not an indictment on comic book writers, I don't know what is. "Write what you know," right? I feel like people can only equate Diana to Clark or Bruce if she's essentially a barbarian hero who can chop someone up. It's pretty sad.

The way editorial treated marriage as a death sentence kind of proves they don't have healthy views on relationships.

Was that ever Wally?

Better late than never, but he is The Flash who outran the metaphysical notion of death itself to the end of all creation to save his wife, effectively telling it "you're never going to take her until I'm gone and you can't catch me so suck it, nerd." Probably didn't seem like it at the time, but that's pretty much "the plot device who runs." Barry does it more, but to be fair to Barry, everyone pretty much upends creation and arm wrestles the Anti-Monitor while juggling planets these days.

Just a couple years ago Superman took like 50 sundips and delivered a haymaker to punch the Anti-Monitor's brother in just some issue of Justice League, no big.

Perpetua's been throwing planets around several times this last year. Same with The Batman Who Sucks. Tom Taylor had Green Arrow kill Aquaman (who is bulletproof) with a regular arrow. Diana can bench press a mountain and get hit by Damage (who she claims is stronger than Clark) but a small lead pellet fired fast enough will absolutely kill her. There's only eleven these days.