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  1. #61
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    To Boy Cheetah in Jimenez' run?
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Not having his weaknesses is not the same thing as not having weaknesses or limits of her own.

    And aside from when Cheetah took down the League in Johns's run, when has Superman ever jobbed to WW villains?
    Ok lets not low ball Cheetah's powers here. Cheetah is a Flash level speedster (without a connection to the speedforce tbf) with all the strength and durability to fight Wonder Woman. I wouldn't say Clark losing to Cheetah is particularly jobbing.
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  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Ok lets not low ball Cheetah's powers here. Cheetah is a Flash level speedster (without a connection to the speedforce tbf) with all the strength and durability to fight Wonder Woman. I wouldn't say Clark losing to Cheetah is particularly jobbing.
    Cheetah loses to Diana most of the time which puts her slightly below her level. Taking out Superman (let alone half of the League) definitely shouldn't be so easy for her, it's never been easy for Diana.

  3. #63
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    Cheetah loses to Diana most of the time which puts her slightly below her level. Taking out Superman (let alone half of the League) definitely shouldn't be so easy for her, it's never been easy for Diana.
    Cheetah is still faster then Diana, most of the time WW needs to anticipate Cheetah's movement pattern/out think her to catch her. Cheetah also plays with her food alot too, meaning she holds back. She's also magically powered and can basically cut through anything given her recent upgrades. Hunting the JL 1 by 1 in a jungle is a tactic that multiple villains have done before, catching the group off guard and blitzing one of their heavy hitters is another tactic. Cheetah also fights Wondy constantly, she clearly has some combat skills.

    But this is getting off topic TBH
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If that's the case, maybe the Lasso should be the afterthought.

    I don't actually believe that but that's because it's as ludicrous as saying that powers Diana has had for decades should be an afterthought.
    ... I mean it already kind of is...She has it on her, sure, but let’s not act like it is on the forefront. (Once again, I’m not saying REMOVE stuff like super strength and flight, I’m saying they shouldn’t be a major focus (as it isn’t even something unique to Wonder Woman anyway, I believe someone earlier in this thread called the trope “flying brick”)... I.e. Wonder Woman shouldn’t need to announce that she pulled her punch with someone like Blue Snowman [who is in a robotic suit regardless])

  5. #65
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Ok lets not low ball Cheetah's powers here. Cheetah is a Flash level speedster (without a connection to the speedforce tbf) with all the strength and durability to fight Wonder Woman. I wouldn't say Clark losing to Cheetah is particularly jobbing.
    Outside that time she teamed up with Zoom and got a boost, I don't think Cheetah's ever been portrayed as that fast. She's certainly in the Diana/Clark tier as we've seen in some stories when she's on her A-Game... but Flash? That's another echelon of speed usually reserved for characters who... well can only do that one thing. I don't think it's unfair to see Cheetah can't crack the speed force level.

  6. #66
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Outside that time she teamed up with Zoom and got a boost, I don't think Cheetah's ever been portrayed as that fast. She's certainly in the Diana/Clark tier as we've seen in some stories when she's on her A-Game... but Flash? That's another echelon of speed usually reserved for characters who... well can only do that one thing. I don't think it's unfair to see Cheetah can't crack the speed force level.
    That's one of the boosts I'm talking about.

    The speedforce is the main difference between speedsters like Flash and Cheetah. Flash has total access, Cheetah has zero. The speedforce gives a ton of additional powers that Cheetah simply doesn't have. Flash has total control of his molecules, can faze through material, steal speed, time travel, etc.... Cheetah is just really fast. And yes, going 100%, Flash (Wally especially) is faster.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I'd like to know this as well...I compared his "vertigo effect" to something Dr. Psycho could also do (as it isn't really something physical). By "street level", are we talking about who the villain normally opposes? Or are we more talking about how much the character can bench (physical strength)?
    To me, "street level" has always been characters who are super-power-free fighters: Daeredevil, Batman, Elektra. Anyone who has a superpower that could potentially impact any of the "big guns" is NOT a street-leveler. Vertigo's power, if written well, could give someone like Diana or Supes some trouble.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by FutureWonder View Post
    To me, "street level" has always been characters who are super-power-free fighters: Daeredevil, Batman, Elektra. Anyone who has a superpower that could potentially impact any of the "big guns" is NOT a street-leveler. Vertigo's power, if written well, could give someone like Diana or Supes some trouble.
    Daredevil and Elektra do have super powers.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    What you say about supergirl applies to WW too. DC should stop powering WW down so much compared to sm. As it stands, i see no reason why WW has to be weaker than sm and specially weaker than supergirl, who WW has already outdone in battle more than once. It's always WW the one that some people seem to think that has to be brought down a notch. And i don't agree with that.
    Yeah of course it applies to Wonder Woman too. But i don't try to bring her down a notch, i try to bring her up millions of notches as it stands, all i am saying is that i don't think if Superman and by extension Supergirl could lift the earth and Wonder Woman just the venus, but as trade off could Wonder Woman fight at 3,3 times the speed of light in an effective way and Superman and by extension Supergirl just at 3 times the speed of light. I am well aware that Marston has specifically said all the strenght of Superman, but i don't even think he would have a problem with my proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    DC gets to say that because they own both characters, and they've only rarely said she's an exact equal to him. They don't have to put their money where their mouth is because they are not creating the expectation that she is perfectly as strong as him. It's been that way for 80 odd years, to say otherwise is pretty much just head canon and asking for something without too much basis.

    And what fans are asking for is not for her to be equal, they actually want her to be stronger. Because she lacks his weaknesses and is a better fighter. Her not being treated as a powerhouse when factoring in these differences is a separate issue. And it doesn't have anything to do with Superman. Cheetah and Giganta should be treated as competent power houses but sometimes they are not even in her own book (or in Bloodlines), Ares and Circe aren't always treated much better, and it's hard to tell how effective her other classic villains could be since they are rarely/never used. I don't want to see any guest villains until they get her own rogues gallery sorted out, but if we do it should be the likes of Black Adam, Zod or Mongul who she should be able to handle in her own way despite being not quite as strong as Superman. Weirdly, despite Superman being a supposed problem, we don't often see her villains jobbing to him but we do sometimes see the reverse. Meanwhile, Cheetah is getting shot by Jason Todd which is a far bigger issue.
    I however have to disagree with this, DC has contradicted their own words often enough, and by the same token would it be head canon without too much basis to talk about modern Supergirl being stronger than modern Wonder Woman, especially by looking at who is portrayed as the strongest female superhero with statements and suggestions from DC.

    And i have also disagree about the rest, because you are not talking about Superman being physically a bit stronger than Wonder Woman, you are talking about outright making Superman superior to Wonder Woman because he would be otherwise allegedly inferior due to his weaknesses. This is strongly contradicted in a time were it has been not long that Wonder Woman's often existing weakness to weapons of the piercing kind, was going so far that get shot by regular bullets got portrayed as life-threatening event, even in a very bad context scene were the same bullets first bounced off Superman and with the incredible silly explanation that Wonder Woman could not react to indirect attacks. And if we are honest, being outright inferior puts Wonder Woman not even on the second but often enough on the last place of the heavy hitters in the Justice League in modern times, which opens another can of worms. Last but not least should be Superman's weaknesses not even common enough for this argument, it just sometimes looks like that because of bad writing, red suns should be no typical problem for obvious reasons, kryptonite should be a very rare material, and magic is not even meant to be a hard counter in general like any Superman fan could explain. In fact should Superman outright lose any direct enconuter with Wonder Woman if magic would be a big enough weakness to jusify making Superman superior, Wonder Woman is a magical beig, with magical weapons, who even uses more dire magic like Zeus magical lightning now and then. But even Shazam or Black Adam are just portrayed as threats, but not as certain loses for him.

    Of course has Wonder Woman bigger problems, but the idea of making her outright inferior to Superman is part of the same problems, and Wonder Woman's fights with Doomsday as example, or half canon/alternative world fights with Superman or Bizzaro as other example are usually more impactful and worse than the few times Superman jobbed to Wonder Woman villains. I am talking about storylines like this blatant insult to Wonder Woman as a character as example:



    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Outside that time she teamed up with Zoom and got a boost, I don't think Cheetah's ever been portrayed as that fast. She's certainly in the Diana/Clark tier as we've seen in some stories when she's on her A-Game... but Flash? That's another echelon of speed usually reserved for characters who... well can only do that one thing. I don't think it's unfair to see Cheetah can't crack the speed force level.
    This is also not truly a good argument in this case, looking at Flash's stupidly wide array of speed force powers and possibilities like the infinite mass punch, is Cheetah like she is portrayed most often far more of a character who can only do that one thing than Flash himself. And as a physical challenge would she just make sense in a higher echelon of speed than Wonder Woman or Superman, and i don't think it would be unfair to let her crack the speed force level in parts because she has still far less powers. It could get even explained with divine magic, the god wave was even the source of the speed force in the past, and we saw full blown gods like Mercury/Hermes do things like speed stealing:


    Last edited by Rightoya; 12-04-2020 at 11:12 PM.

  10. #70

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    I never got this. Why make a character inspired by Epic Greek Heroes just to bring them down to street level villains?

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofPrometheus View Post
    This is why I do not like the Sword and Shield. It's a lowkey "nerf" to her powers. Every time she has them you can't see her depict her full strength, agility, or abilities. The recent preview for JL Endless Winter doesn't have her with the S&S and guess what? She's kicking ass and knocking people off their feet.

    It's also stupid because DC is not going to show WW cut people in half or kill them with the sword. I'm glad WW84 ditched them.
    This is like saying Thor using a weapon nerfs him. Sword and Sheild doesn't "nerf" her it enhances her character. It makes her fights more interesting as opposed to generic punching/flying fights other heroes already do.

    It's the enemies she's fighting against that nerf her. If they pit her against Cthulhu type enemies on a regular basis no one would mind her sword and sheild.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by FutureWonder View Post
    Since when is Count Vertigo a "street-level villain"?
    If Green Arrow can take him, he's street level.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    From what I've heard from creatives (I think Saladin Ahmed), writers have less input than one might think about the opponents a superhero might face. Rather, they seem to be assigned one or more villains by the editor. Of course, writers can certainly pitch stories with villains they want to use, but in the end it's the editor's choice.

    Anyway, I don't have anything against Diana (or other superheroes with similar power levels) dealing with street level antagonists, as long as the stories are good. I think the problem lies more in the lack of good stories than in the opponents that Diana faces.

    Even borrowing rogues from the galleries of other heroes is largely fine, especially if they themselves are A-list villains. "Morning Coffee" by Ollie Masters with Catwoman and Wonder Woman back in the old digital Sensation Comics was a delight.

    Get good stories that showcase the personality of both Diana and the villain, and the rest will follow.
    That's a good point.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    It makes her fights more interesting as opposed to generic punching/flying fights other heroes already do.
    She already has the lasso, bracelets and tiara for that. Sword and shield are about as generic as weapons can get.

  14. #74
    Still only crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    The sword/shield is stupid for Diana's supposed powerset. You go to a fight with a sword, the only sense in using it is to stab/slash/kill your opponent. That seems very contradictory to what most of us know about her. I can see why, if it is a origin story, she uses that only to realize her mission and what carrying a sword at all times would represent to the public at large. If she is almost as strong as Superman (very dubious claim), then there is no need for this except to say they want to make her a superpowered Xena.

    If she has learned to stop using the sword/shield in her 2nd solo movie, then why is it still front and center in the BvS and JL movies? DC can't seem to make up their mind with the direction they want to go with her. I think her using the sword/shield does nerf her or at least makes her dependent on items she doesn't need. Why have the bracers at all if she is just going to use the shield to block ranged attacks? Why make her look even closely like Captain America?

    I have always wanted a consistent powerset throughout all the mediums that Wonder Woman is in. The fact that DC still can't get this right is mind boggling. Is she that tough a character to write good stories about without jerking us around with what her current defined powers she might have?

    I would say, at this point, is to give her over to Marvel (I know this ain't happening) and see how they treat her!

  15. #75
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    I never got this. Why make a character inspired by Epic Greek Heroes just to bring them down to street level villains?



    This is like saying Thor using a weapon nerfs him. Sword and Sheild doesn't "nerf" her it enhances her character. It makes her fights more interesting as opposed to generic punching/flying fights other heroes already do.

    It's the enemies she's fighting against that nerf her. If they pit her against Cthulhu type enemies on a regular basis no one would mind her sword and sheild.
    I’m not entirely anti-sword/shield but I wouldn’t really say it enhances since most of the time I don’t think they’ve ever been presented in-universe as anything particularly special, at least when in comparison to the bracelets and lasso.

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