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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    cunning also plays a roll in rumbles. i mean, whats to stop someone like rick from making a mockery of the whole thing and just jump in and roll out of the ring while everyone else is fighting.

    also, rick could just take off one of his legs and he can't be eliminated from the rumble since the rules say you have to go over the top rope and both feet touch the ground.
    That would be a very interesting strat.

    Rick's Portal Gun would also be very effective as an elimination tool

  2. #17
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    I don't see it as nerfing after the fact, I see it as elaborating on an unclear subject.
    Seemed pretty clear in the OP, but okay.

    As for why the Bands are covered, It's necessary in order to close a massive loophole. Projectiles and tools have to be included in the equalization, otherwise someone might argue that, say, Ussop's shots move faster than he does because his weapon wasn't included in the equalization.
    So...everything moves at the same speed? Energy blasts sedately wander across the battlefield at the pace of a running man? Explosions propagate at the same speed as a person can jump? That sort of thing? And energy blasts have the same impact as, I don't know, a fist? And people all have the same durability despite having dedicated armour and the like? or force fields? Or whatever?

    How does one, then, use feats to determine who wins? Which brings us to...

    The goal here is to be tricky, not over power the enemy.
    So basically we need to debate that one person is somehow going to be trickier than other people, without using feats, because everything is now equal.

    I'm out.
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Seemed pretty clear in the OP, but okay.



    So...everything moves at the same speed? Energy blasts sedately wander across the battlefield at the pace of a running man? Explosions propagate at the same speed as a person can jump? That sort of thing? And energy blasts have the same impact as, I don't know, a fist? And people all have the same durability despite having dedicated armour and the like? or force fields? Or whatever?

    How does one, then, use feats to determine who wins? Which brings us to...



    So basically we need to debate that one person is somehow going to be trickier than other people, without using feats, because everything is now equal.

    I'm out.
    It's a discussion of what character's powers are best suited for this contest, as well as their skill and intelligence. Intelligence and skill is something that feats matter for.

  4. #19
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    If you nerf the powers, how can one have a discussion on which one’s are best suited?
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    If you nerf the powers, how can one have a discussion on which one’s are best suited?
    By discussing the aspects that didn't get nerfed.

    Take Spidey for example. His speed may be equalized, but his reactions will still be better because he's got his spider sense.

  6. #21
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    So basically it's not a discussion of a character's powers either, it's a discussion of very specific powers that don't get nerfed. Take Superman, for example. He has, for this Rumble, been reduced to someone who can fly at running speed and has laser vision that has all of the impact of a punch and that travels at, I guess, running speed so is easily dodged. That's it.

    The Thing is...basically Ben Grimm. No powers at all. Some vaguely decent skill at fighting. Nothing more. Why's he even here?

    Whereas people like Loki can spam illusions until the cows come home. Sure, Loki has become a somewhat fight-skilled, normal human mage, but still.

    To put it another way, some characters have a whole lot of 'skills and special tricks' left, because you've decided their special tricks are allowable, but others have basically lost all of the 'skills and special tricks' they had.

    Heck, going back to Doom, one of the things that sets him apart from other mages IS his 'skill', which allows him to use the Crimson Bands (something many other mages cannot do, because they do not have the skill to do so), potentially the best binding spell mages can learn. But here, that 'skill' has been reduced to 'just another binding spell, Vic's skill with magic has been nerfed'.

    Whereas the same hasn't been done to Batman - the thing that sets HIM apart in a fight like this would be his hand to hand skill, and THAT hasn't been reduced to the same level as everyone else; he's still better, still has all kinds of pressure point stuff that comes from his special skills, etc. Similarly Goku, who still (as you say) gets this super-dodging ability that nobody else has. Why haven't those been removed as well, since we're removing stuff that's based on skill (eg - Dr. Doom's Crimson Bands, which are something he learned due to his skill, are basically reduced to 'no stronger than any other binding spell would be')?

    It seems rather arbitrary.
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    So basically it's not a discussion of a character's powers either, it's a discussion of very specific powers that don't get nerfed. Take Superman, for example. He has, for this Rumble, been reduced to someone who can fly at running speed and has laser vision that has all of the impact of a punch and that travels at, I guess, running speed so is easily dodged. That's it.

    The Thing is...basically Ben Grimm. No powers at all. Some vaguely decent skill at fighting. Nothing more. Why's he even here?

    Whereas people like Loki can spam illusions until the cows come home. Sure, Loki has become a somewhat fight-skilled, normal human mage, but still.

    To put it another way, some characters have a whole lot of 'skills and special tricks' left, because you've decided their special tricks are allowable, but others have basically lost all of the 'skills and special tricks' they had.

    Heck, going back to Doom, one of the things that sets him apart from other mages IS his 'skill', which allows him to use the Crimson Bands (something many other mages cannot do, because they do not have the skill to do so), potentially the best binding spell mages can learn. But here, that 'skill' has been reduced to 'just another binding spell, Vic's skill with magic has been nerfed'.

    Whereas the same hasn't been done to Batman - the thing that sets HIM apart in a fight like this would be his hand to hand skill, and THAT hasn't been reduced to the same level as everyone else; he's still better, still has all kinds of pressure point stuff that comes from his special skills, etc. Similarly Goku, who still (as you say) gets this super-dodging ability that nobody else has. Why haven't those been removed as well, since we're removing stuff that's based on skill (eg - Dr. Doom's Crimson Bands, which are something he learned due to his skill, are basically reduced to 'no stronger than any other binding spell would be')?

    It seems rather arbitrary.
    No, Vic's magic hasn't been nerfed. The Spell has been, in accordance with what was laid out in the opening post. The bands restrain people using physical strength, so they're effected by the physical equalization. It's not arbitrary, it's based on how the move works.

    The point of equalizing stats is to make that stat not be a factor in the fight. Saying "Well if the Strength is all equalized below X point, then Y Strat is a guaranteed win." is making that stat a factor in the fight.

  8. #23
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    No, Vic's magic hasn't been nerfed. The Spell has been, in accordance with what was laid out in the opening post. The bands restrain people using physical strength, so they're effected by the physical equalization. It's not arbitrary, it's based on how the move works.

    The point of equalizing stats is to make that stat not be a factor in the fight. Saying "Well if the Strength is all equalized below X point, then Y Strat is a guaranteed win." is making that stat a factor in the fight.
    If the energy tentacles of the bands have equal strength to the strength cap, Doom still wins because he can just spam lots of bands of energy that will fill the ring and manhandle everyone else out.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    If the energy tentacles of the bands have equal strength to the strength cap, Doom still wins because he can just spam lots of bands of energy that will fill the ring and manhandle everyone else out.
    Yes, I did acknowledge that earlier.

  10. #25
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    On a completely different note, hiding outside the ring to avoid elimination and then sneaking back in to try and throw out the last person is considered a legal play in the Royal Rumble.

    Jerry Lawler did it 1996, but was caught by Shawn Michaels. Both Steve Austin and Vince McMahon spent most of Royal Rumble 1999 outside the ring. Santino pretended to be unconscious for the last bit of the 2011 one.

    It comes up infrequently, but is viable. While Goku and Superman are too noble and fight-happy to try hiding, Ben 10 has been known to do it when it is the smartest option, and if Twilight is in character she has probably studied the past Rumbles and knows of the option. SPideman doesn't have an aversion to being sneaky, although I don't know if he can stop quipping for long enough to hide for an entire Rumble, and Danny can just go invisible and intangible and also hang out in the rafters.
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  11. #26
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    No, Vic's magic hasn't been nerfed. The Spell has been, in accordance with what was laid out in the opening post. The bands restrain people using physical strength, so they're effected by the physical equalization. It's not arbitrary, it's based on how the move works.

    The point of equalizing stats is to make that stat not be a factor in the fight. Saying "Well if the Strength is all equalized below X point, then Y Strat is a guaranteed win." is making that stat a factor in the fight.
    The point is that Vic's skill with magic allows him to use superior spells to other people. Take those superior spells away, make them no more potent than other spells, and you are effectively nerfing his magic or rendering his skill with magic pointless. All binding magic is effectively equal, regardless of the skill of the caster - put a lesser mage into the ring, with basic binding spells that Victor wouldn't bother using, and that lesser mage's binding spells are just as hard to break out of. Whereas you haven't, for example, nerfed Batman's skill with hand to hand - all hand to hand skill is NOT equal. Batman still has a plethora of skill to draw upon, and can use that skill to automatically shut people down via pressure point use, whereas others here - who are less skilled than he - cannot. Similarly Goku - he still has his whatevertheheck impossible dodging ability. He hasn't lost any kind of skill-based capacity there.

    Some people with skill lose the advantage of that skill (Doom, and skill with magic, allowing for better spells). Other people with skill keep the advantage of that skill (Batman, and skill with hand to hand, allowing him to have better 'attacks' than other people and shut down other people with a poke of the finger, or Goku, allowing him to have better defenses than other people, the automatic dodge ability his skill gives him).

    And the choice of what to nerf? A situation has been set up where some contestants (Ben Grimm) have effectively lost every single one of their powers and 'tricks', as you put it (most of Ben's tricks with using his powers involve using his super-strength advantage in rather smart ways, like thunderclaps, groundstrikes, and even using his strength to blow massive gusts of air), leaving them with really nothing (even if he CAN still do those things, with Strength equalized they really do nothing). Whereas others, like Loki, still have plenty of powers to draw upon.

    So, yes, it does feel a little arbitrary to me.

    But clearly it doesn't to you, so fair enough. I won't bug you any more here - this isn't my cup of tea.
    Why are we here?

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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  12. #27
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    On a completely different note, hiding outside the ring to avoid elimination and then sneaking back in to try and throw out the last person is considered a legal play in the Royal Rumble.

    Jerry Lawler did it 1996, but was caught by Shawn Michaels. Both Steve Austin and Vince McMahon spent most of Royal Rumble 1999 outside the ring. Santino pretended to be unconscious for the last bit of the 2011 one.

    It comes up infrequently, but is viable. While Goku and Superman are too noble and fight-happy to try hiding, Ben 10 has been known to do it when it is the smartest option, and if Twilight is in character she has probably studied the past Rumbles and knows of the option. SPideman doesn't have an aversion to being sneaky, although I don't know if he can stop quipping for long enough to hide for an entire Rumble, and Danny can just go invisible and intangible and also hang out in the rafters.
    or hell, rick could just cut the ropes off the ring.

    can't go over the top rope if there is no top rope/

  13. #28
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Judging from past matches that would probably just lead to a ref stoppage until they reroped the ring.
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  14. #29
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Judging from past matches that would probably just lead to a ref stoppage until they reroped the ring.
    but it's not against the rules. as is outside interference and eliminated wrestlers coming back in and eliminating other wrestlers.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    The point is that Vic's skill with magic allows him to use superior spells to other people. Take those superior spells away, make them no more potent than other spells, and you are effectively nerfing his magic or rendering his skill with magic pointless. All binding magic is effectively equal, regardless of the skill of the caster - put a lesser mage into the ring, with basic binding spells that Victor wouldn't bother using, and that lesser mage's binding spells are just as hard to break out of. Whereas you haven't, for example, nerfed Batman's skill with hand to hand - all hand to hand skill is NOT equal. Batman still has a plethora of skill to draw upon, and can use that skill to automatically shut people down via pressure point use, whereas others here - who are less skilled than he - cannot. Similarly Goku - he still has his whatevertheheck impossible dodging ability. He hasn't lost any kind of skill-based capacity there.

    Some people with skill lose the advantage of that skill (Doom, and skill with magic, allowing for better spells). Other people with skill keep the advantage of that skill (Batman, and skill with hand to hand, allowing him to have better 'attacks' than other people and shut down other people with a poke of the finger, or Goku, allowing him to have better defenses than other people, the automatic dodge ability his skill gives him).

    And the choice of what to nerf? A situation has been set up where some contestants (Ben Grimm) have effectively lost every single one of their powers and 'tricks', as you put it (most of Ben's tricks with using his powers involve using his super-strength advantage in rather smart ways, like thunderclaps, groundstrikes, and even using his strength to blow massive gusts of air), leaving them with really nothing (even if he CAN still do those things, with Strength equalized they really do nothing). Whereas others, like Loki, still have plenty of powers to draw upon.

    So, yes, it does feel a little arbitrary to me.

    But clearly it doesn't to you, so fair enough. I won't bug you any more here - this isn't my cup of tea.
    Binding magic is not all equal, because the mechanics of the binding are different. Being tied up with rope is not the same thing as being paralyzed by nerve damage.

    (Also, I ought to point out that the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak are powered by Cyttorak, and if he's getting involved in the Rumble, his stats are getting equalized too).

    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    or hell, rick could just cut the ropes off the ring.

    can't go over the top rope if there is no top rope/
    If he cut the ropes, they'd still exist. In fact they'd be easier to send people over XD

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