Wonder Woman vs Invincible

[Jcogginsa]

PIS/CIS are explicitly things, shown multiple times and explained to you, specifically, multiple times. So this really isn't your first rodeo as far as getting called out for this bad-faith, board rules ignoring crap.

Why are you back at it?

I'm not. Pendaren is twisting my words into statements that I did not make

You're kind of making my point for me here...is light speed the fastest Zolomon can move?

Being able to move at higher speeds is not relevant when the scene in question explicitly names what speed he is moving at.

Attachment 102919

In fact, as Zolomon often does, he was toying with Diana in that book.

Your attachment is broken

They're from JLA Classified 17. Puts JLA 77 into context and is better representative of the difference between Diana and Wally West.

Fair enough.

Except there are too many other instances of Diana struggling to keep up with Clark, who is near light, much less being able to consistently keep up with someone in Flash's league.

Such as?

Yeah, you really are though, or you would not have even mentioned Wonder Woman tagging Zolomon and Wally West, as if that is somehow magically more representative of Diana's actual reaction speed.

You aren't understanding my argument.
1. Zolomon is explicitly stated as moving at Lightspeed. I am presenting that feat as evidence that Diana has lightspeed reactions, not that Diana can react to Zolomon at his top speed
2. My argument regarding The Flashes is that "While the Flashes are able to travel faster than Superman, they only do so when they need to. So Diana reacting to Wally is in line with her reacting to Superman"

But they are here. That is my point. Like I said here today and I said in our previous discussion, "high feats consistent with the character's presentation" is what we go by. Hunter Zolomon only moving at light speed doesn't fly around here because most here know he is faaaarrrr faster than that, and Wally isn't too far behind Zoom.

Zolomon being able to go faster does not make it impossible for him to choose to go slower.

Amazing that you would draw that conclusion when Clark was literally blown away by Barry Allan in that book. You seem really resistant to how feats are evaluated here on these forums. I suggest reading the FAQ's and mod rulings, as I suggested you do in the discussion about WBH.

Jesus christ, will you please READ WHAT I SAY.

I never denied that Barry was faster than Clark when he chooses to be.

My argument is that when Barry does not need to move faster than Clark, he defaults to moving at around Clark's speed. Because Clark would have no reason to believe that he can keep up with serious Barry if Barry was constantly blitzing him.

The speeds Barry "must" be moving at. The reasons noted in why.



That you do not like it when I apply the logical ramifications of your words across all characters evenly is your own problem.

Why is it that this only applies to Barry and Superman, and not, say, Superman and all the people with little to no speed to speak of who constantly hit and react to him? Why the double standard? Why by your logic isn't it that Superman must so "habitually" not use his speed that we shouldn't even really consider it? Look how many times that happens in comics, the place where by your logic, everything counts and we should just make up some reason for why it all counts.

It's as though this is why we don't bother with your type of "logic".

Because with Barry, there is evidence to support that belief, whereas there is not such evidence for those other characters.

[Pendaran]

Because with Barry, there is evidence to support that belief, whereas there is not such evidence for those other characters

The only evidence to support that belief is "because it happened". That's the same evidence with all those other characters.

My argument is that when Barry does not need to move faster than Clark, he defaults to moving at around Clark's speed. Because Clark would have no reason to believe that he can keep up with serious Barry if Barry was constantly blitzing him.

And all those people should have no reason to think they can't hit Superman for whatever reason. And look! They prove it by then hitting or even outdrawing Superman. Repeatedly. On many separate occasions.

Same logic applies exactly the same. That you dislike that it does, does not change that.

[Pendaran]

I mean it's all kind of moot? We don't count PIS laden showings for meaning anything just because someone wants to say they show how fast Superman is, but this is a pretty good case in point for why we have the board standards we do.

[Cody]

The only evidence to support that belief is "because it happened". That's the same evidence with all those other characters.



And all those people should have no reason to think they can't hit Superman for whatever reason. And look! They prove it by then hitting or even outdrawing Superman. Repeatedly. On many separate occasions.

Same logic applies exactly the same. That you dislike that it does, does not change that.

Pretty sure he means that Barry, Wally, etc aren't always moving at their top speeds and default to what is basically power walking when among his slower pears.



Obviously Barry can move a lot faster than he is in the scan above, and can make himself faster just like how Superman in that scan sped up his senses.

[Cronus]

Being able to move at higher speeds is not relevant when the scene in question explicitly names what speed he is moving at.

It's completely relevant here. The link has been provided for you for FAQ's and rules and what not. I've copied it for your benefit. Please read it.

04. Bloodlust: It is assumed that each contestant in the arena will fight to his/her best ability. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first picosecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is an established fact that he possesses that level of speed.

Therefore, light speed is not the top end for Hunter Zolomon.

Your attachment is broken

Works for me. Try this...

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...MygAegUIARCeAQ

Fair enough.

..............

Such as?

The fight where Maxwell Lord is TP'ing Clark to make him think Diana is Doomsday comes to mind.

You aren't understanding my argument.
1. Zolomon is explicitly stated as moving at Lightspeed. I am presenting that feat as evidence that Diana has lightspeed reactions, not that Diana can react to Zolomon at his top speed

Doesnt' really hold water, when Diana is hit and miss with the likes of Clark who gets statued by Wally West or Zolomon.

2. My argument regarding The Flashes is that "While the Flashes are able to travel faster than Superman,

....Flashes are faster in every way than Superman. He is not remotely close. What about this concept are you struggling with?

they only do so when they need to. So Diana reacting to Wally is in line with her reacting to Superman"

Dude...what about what I'm saying to you isn't sinking in? "High feats....consistent with the character's presentation". Consistent high end feats man.

Zolomon being able to go faster does not make it impossible for him to choose to go slower.

Except he won't be under Rumbles rules? Hello? You are evaluating what appears to be this weird ballpark way of evaluating feats. Knock yourself out. Just don't do it here.

Jesus christ, will you please READ WHAT I SAY.

I am READING what you're saying. It doesn't jibe with "high feats consistent with the character's presentation".

I never denied that Barry was faster than Clark when he chooses to be.

But for all intents and purposes...you ARE saying that...under the context of Rumbles rules.

My argument is that when Barry does not need to move faster than Clark, he defaults to moving at around Clark's speed. Because Clark would have no reason to believe that he can keep up with serious Barry if Barry was constantly blitzing him.

And under Rumbles rules, that is exactly what Barry, or Wally or Zolomon would do. They will all blitz Clark into next week under Rumbles rules. CIS/PIS is not incorporated into Rumbles discussions.

[Pendaran]

Pretty sure he means that Barry, Wally, etc aren't always moving at their top speeds and default to what is basically power walking when among his slower pears.

He's trying to argue this means that whenever Superman tags a Flash or runs close to one it's a totally valid showing that shows how fast Superman is, instead of being PIS that isn't worth using for anything. Because the Flash is "going default enough for Superman to interact".

Which, by standards here, makes the showing meaningless for saying anything about Superman. His argument boils down to "no it doesn't!"

His other problem is that his justification for it is "because that's how it was written in comics" and those were his words, while wanting to ignore what that should logically mean about how fast anyone really is considering how many people so much slower than Superman hit him all the time.

Clearly, if he were being consistent, he would then say Superman's "default" speed is basically no speed at all.

He just doesn't want to say that, if you follow.

[Cody]

He's trying to argue this means that whenever Superman tags a Flash or runs close to one it's a totally valid showing that shows how fast Superman is, instead of being PIS that isn't worth using for anything. Because the Flash is "going default enough for Superman to interact".

Which, by standards here, makes the showing meaningless for saying anything about Superman. His argument boils down to "no it doesn't!"

His other problem is that his justification for it is "because that's how it was written in comics" and those were his words, while wanting to ignore what that should logically mean about how fast anyone really is considering how many people so much slower than Superman hit him all the time.

Clearly, if he were being consistent, he would then say Superman's "default" speed is basically no speed at all.

He just doesn't want to say that, if you follow.

Ah, I see. Gotcha.

[Jcogginsa]

Pretty sure he means that Barry, Wally, etc aren't always moving at their top speeds and default to what is basically power walking when among his slower pears.

This is the first part of my argument.

The second part of my argument is that, because Barry/Wally aren't going at top speeds all the time, them getting tagged is the same level of feat as Superman getting tagged and not an outlier in comparison.

Obviously, if the comic specifies that they're going at top speed, that changes, this argument is only applies to cases where there is no other contextual evidence to determine speed.

He's trying to argue this means that whenever Superman tags a Flash or runs close to one it's a totally valid showing that shows how fast Superman is, instead of being PIS that isn't worth using for anything. Because the Flash is "going default enough for Superman to interact".

No, it isn't. You really haven't been anything I have said, have you.

It's completely relevant here. The link has been provided for you for FAQ's and rules and what not. I've copied it for your benefit. Please read it.

04. Bloodlust: It is assumed that each contestant in the arena will fight to his/her best ability. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first picosecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is an established fact that he possesses that level of speed.

Bloodlust does not apply when analyzing feats. Because they aren't under bloodlust when they're performing the feats.

Therefore, light speed is not the top end for Hunter Zolomon.

I know that. I've said that. That does not change the fact that Zolomon is explicitly going at lightspeed in the comic. That's why I used it as a feat to show that Diana can react to lightspeed attacks, not to show that Diana can react to Zolomon's top speed. Because in comic Zolomon's not using his top speed.

Works for me. Try this...

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...MygAegUIARCeAQ

It works now, but it still doesn't show anything I didn't already acknowledge.

The fight where Maxwell Lord is TP'ing Clark to make him think Diana is Doomsday comes to mind.

Okay, that's one.

Doesnt' really hold water, when Diana is hit and miss with the likes of Clark who gets statued by Wally West or Zolomon.

Again, Zoom's top speed DOES NOT MATTER WHEN HE IS NOT TRAVELLING AT HIS TOP SPEED.

....Flashes are faster in every way than Superman. He is not remotely close. What about this concept are you struggling with?

How many times do I have to acknowledge that before you stop pretending that I haven't.

Dude...what about what I'm saying to you isn't sinking in? "High feats....consistent with the character's presentation". Consistent high end feats man.

I know. My argument is that Diana's consistent high end feats place her in Superman's tier

Except he won't be under Rumbles rules? Hello? You are evaluating what appears to be this weird ballpark way of evaluating feats. Knock yourself out. Just don't do it here.

And this is entirely irrelevant, because he wasn't in a rumble when Diana tagged him, he was in a comic where rumbles bloodlust does not exist.

I am READING what you're saying. It doesn't jibe with "high feats consistent with the character's presentation".

No, you aren't. You can't even comprehend that Rumbles Bloodlust doesn't exist inside the comics.

But for all intents and purposes...you ARE saying that...under the context of Rumbles rules.

No, I am not in any way, shape, or form saying that. You are entirely wrong to think that I did.

And under Rumbles rules, that is exactly what Barry, or Wally or Zolomon would do. They will all blitz Clark into next week under Rumbles rules. CIS/PIS is not incorporated into Rumbles discussions.

And this does not mean anything because they are not under Rumbles bloodlust inside the comics.

[Pendaran]

Bloodlust does not apply when analyzing feats. Because they aren't under bloodlust when they're performing the feats

PIS does, and despite numerous people in thread pointing this out, your consistent response has been to ignore it.

No, it isn't. You really haven't been anything I have said, have you.

Your exact words:

No, it isn't. It's because Barry in the comics is an actual character

Superman in the comics is an actual character too. He gets hit by people without superspeed all the time. Why is that of no value by your logic?

More of your exact words

No, a character not using max effort for every single situation is not them being underwritten.

Superman statuing speed is something that the comics frame as a "Special occasion, not every occasion" thing, whereas in normal circumstances, he moves at speeds in Superman's ballpark. That is actual logic, because it looks at the facts in universe and draws a conclusion based on those.

So, looking "at the facts in universe and drawing a conclusion based on those.", why are we talking about Superman having combat useful speed, at all? Look at how many times how many people without it hit him. Those are in universe facts.

I know, I know, only some "in universe facts" count and other "in universe facts" don't.

I know that. I've said that. That does not change the fact that Zolomon is explicitly going at lightspeed in the comic. That's why I used it as a feat to show that Diana can react to lightspeed attacks, not to show that Diana can react to Zolomon's top speed. Because in comic Zolomon's not using his top speed.

A feat where someone can only show a particular speed while jobbing someone else out, is without meaning by definition here. It doesn't show Wonder Woman is lightspeed, it shows she can tag someone who she shouldn't be able to.

Your "support" for this being some regular indicator of lightspeed capacity is otherwise boiling down to statements, and some "well she also hit". That's an extremely poor case, and takes us aaaaall the way back to, look at how many times Superman otherwise gets hit by all kinds of people. Why again doesn't that count? According to you, there aren't low showings.

"She's lightspeed because she hit them when they were" is essentially what you keep repeating over and over. Except no, it's not even that, your entire argument is this teetering house of cards/house that jack built because we have to first:

1) Accept post crisis Superman is lightspeed instead of near light, which you've already shown is at least half based in "the Flash feats are valid when I say they are, and my logic in no way has to extend consistently to every other time someone hits Superman by contrast, mostly because I say so."

2) Once we accept that, which we shouldn't really have to because the way you support it is itself dubious, we have to accept "it proves she is because she hit him" neverminding that even in this thread we have incidents where she herself notes she can barely react to a thing, and ultimately ends up grabbed anyway. This is setting aside fights where said gap is itself more marked. This again makes your posts a pile of double standards because your entire argument is "it happened so it counts". Yes? And that happened too. Why are we ignoring one or the other by your standards? Because by your standards, we can't. We have to look at what happened "in universe". I know "in universe" only counts when you want it to.

3) But let's say we set all that aside anyway, for some reason, we're now left with a bunch of "well she also hit", and again, why does that only apply to her, and not to piles of other people hitting, say, Superman? There is no consistency at the heart of anything you say.

4) Statements, which barely have any meaning, and are not helped when all you can back them with is stuff like the above.

You act like these characters are Karate Kid instead of characters with comparative performative careers that fly in the face of what you are saying.

Again, Zoom's top speed DOES NOT MATTER WHEN HE IS NOT TRAVELLING AT HIS TOP SPEED.

Yes, and things people do to someone while they're jobbing don't matter either.

How many times do I have to acknowledge that before you stop pretending that I haven't.

Your own posts are repeatedly about not acknowledging that or treating it as some special case.

And this is entirely irrelevant, because he wasn't in a rumble when Diana tagged him, he was in a comic where rumbles bloodlust does not exist.

And yet, when we weigh feats for validity, it is entirely relevant when someone is blatantly underperforming when something happens.

No, you aren't. You can't even comprehend that Rumbles Bloodlust doesn't exist inside the comics.

You seem to want to repeatedly refuse that we don't consider feats driven by plot induced stupidity as worth demonstrating anything here. You can keep doing so, but it won't change that we don't consider feats driven by plot induced stupidity as worth demonstrating anything here.

[Rightoya]

Except that's not what the page shows, or Diana states. There's no "I'm barely defending myself from Superman's heat vision, which is clearly also some nebulous degree faster than he is", there's Superman being fast enough to use his heat vision like a barrage as he comes in, which Diana notes she can barely defend herself against in time, and then, as though dealing with a guy she's just noted is fast enough to give her problems like that, she gets grabbed without really being able to do much about it.

That is literally what is shown, Superman shoots the heat vision beams who are clearly faster than himself, Wonder Woman deflects them with her bracelets and notes that she was barely able to get the bracelets up in time, it was visibly shown for what Wonder Woman has put her bracelets up, and it was something that moved clearly faster than Superman himself in that scene. And you still didn't give me any logical explanation what even an assumed explicit faster Wonder Woman should have done to prevent getting grabbed?

[Pendaran]

That is literally what is shown, Superman shoots the heat vision beams who are clearly faster than himself, Wonder Woman deflects them with her bracelets and notes that she was barely able to get the bracelets up in time, it was visibly shown for what Wonder Woman has put her bracelets up, and it was something that moved clearly faster than Superman himself in that scene. And you still didn't give me any logical explanation what even an assumed explicit faster Wonder Woman should have done to prevent getting grabbed?

Dodge out of the way? Move out of the way? Grab his arms and put some effort into stopping them from grabbing her? Even grab him first and try to apply some kind of leverage to moving him somewhere else? You're the one noting things like Wonder Woman's vast breadth of skill. It's as though again, she just didn't have the speed to try anything. As though she had no time to. As though what immediately happened after her block attempt was her being grabbed. Because that's the comic.

The rest is at this point looking at a comic and seeing what isn't there.

No, actually it's beyond that. If Superman's heat vision is so much faster than him as you're claiming, then Wonder Woman blocking it, at all, let alone a barrage of it, makes her well faster than him, and is that your argument now? Is every time Superman has hit her, at all, Wonder Woman just jobbing out?

Alternatively, the page shows what it shows, and trying to change it to show something different convolutes it into these knots.

[Jcogginsa]

Superman in the comics is an actual character too. He gets hit by people without superspeed all the time. Why is that of no value by your logic?

Because as I have already told you, we have actual evidence from the comic that indicates that Barry is consistently holding back from his higher levels of speed. We don't have any evidence like that for Superman, so the argument doesn't apply to them.

I don't care how many times to try and apply the argument to everyone, my argument is intended to apply only to the Flashes.

And I will not respond to any other post that make on this matter unless you can provide an explanation for why Superman thinks he can keep up with Barry if Barry is supposedly blitzing him all the time.

[Pendaran]

I don't care how many times to try and apply the argument to everyone, my argument is intended to apply only to the Flashes.

Then your argument is, for all that this word can be rarely used, literally that you have one standard when you want to claim something about Superman vs Flashes, and a different, or, double standard vs straight up everything else.

And I will not respond to any other post that make on this matter unless you can provide an explanation for why Superman thinks he can keep up with Barry if Barry is supposedly blitzing him all the time.

Because characters are underwritten in comics from how they can otherwise perform all the time. That's just how comic books function. Not everything requires you to make up some explain away notation for them. And, more to the point, you're basically saying "I refuse to respond to any post that weighs performances by the standards of evidence of this board" because as multiple people have tried to point out to you, we don't consider showings where people underperform for the sake of plot to be much valid for anything as far as the quality they are underperforming by.

Because as I have already told you, we have actual evidence from the comic that indicates that Barry is consistently holding back from his higher levels of speed. We don't have any evidence like that for Superman, so the argument doesn't apply to them.

How many times in comics have people and Superman himself gone on about how much in general he holds back? That's kind of a rhetorical question frankly.

It's also a near meaningless one as far as it goes (Superman has plenty of fights and performances where no such thing gets mentioned really, or should even be considered, but by your logic, since it has come up at all...), but it again hits to the heart of how your posts are a mess of contradictions just by your own logic. Your own standards do not work with each other.

[Jcogginsa]

Then your argument is, for all that this word can be rarely used, literally that you have one standard when you want to claim something about Superman vs Flashes, and a different, or, double standard vs straight up everything else.

No, and stop trying to twist my words into saying that.

With Barry, we have evidence to go off. With other characters, we have no evidence to base their performance on.

With Barry, we know that his standard operating speed is slow enough that Superman thinks he can keep up with him when he's serious. We don't have have a similar frame of reference for how much Superman holds back.

Because characters are underwritten in comics from how they can otherwise perform all the time. That's just how comic books function.

Superman hasn't read the comics dude. When someone asks you for an in-universe reason, don't give an out of universe answer.

How many times in comics have people and Superman himself gone on about how much in general he holds back in general? That's kind of a rhetorical question frankly.

If you want to use that to apply the argument that Superman is always holding back on his speed, then feel free to. But that's on you, not me.

[Pendaran]

Your "evidence" is "well Superman kept up with or hit him". That's the exact same "evidence" for everyone who has ever hit or outmoved Superman despite their own speeds.

With Barry, we know that his standard operating speed is slow enough that Superman thinks he can keep up with him when he's serious. We don't have have a similar frame of reference for how much Superman holds back.

And Superman, based on Barry's better performances, would thus be wrong, unless, like the writer, you need to write him as though they don't exist.

But, as people keep trying to tell you, we don't do things like that here. We don't consider better performances well within one character's range of validity not to have existed just so that the other ones that makes the character you want to look good can count.

Superman hasn't read the comics dude. When someone asks you for an in-universe reason, don't give an out of universe answer.

Unfortunately as people keep trying to point out to you, you are in a place where in weighing feats against each other for validity, the answer is to give out of universe answers, like "well the writer just ignored that this better showing exists" because the alternative is the mess of illogic and double standards and contradictions that are your posts.

If you want to use that to apply the argument that Superman is always holding back on his speed, then feel free to. But that's on you, not me.

"My arguments only count when I say they count".

People hit Superman all the time regardless of speed. Superman says he holds back. Why isn't Superman's "default" speed thus, barely any? Again, this is all your logic, not anyone else's.

The better, more suited to the standards of this board, answer would be "because those are low showings compared to Superman's reasonable high end ones and Superman's statement is kinda meaningless when you look at how many times he's never noted or shown anything like that as far as what we see from him", but you're not in a position where you can provide that answer, to be sure.