Wonder Woman vs Invincible

[Rightoya]

It was Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) and it is not remotely legitimate given his presentation as well over even post Crisis Wally West who waaayyyy beyond light speed in terms of reactions.



An odd interpretation of what went down in that book given Diana's own statements....

Attachment 102917

"Caught" seems to imply she is actually in the same ball park as Wally West. Not remotely true. In fact, the only way she tagged Wally was by anticipating his next move and timing it just right...

Attachment 102918

How are you using forum rules of characters being bloodlusted for a scene with a completely different own context? In the fight with Zoom mentioned by Jcogginsa have we an explicit statement about him just going lightspeed, and Wonder Woman catches him in that context, that neither makes Zoom not capable of going faster nor makes it the feat somehow not legitimate if not used to claim she would be faster than a bloodlusted Zoom. It just means Wonder Woman can catch a character moving at the speed of light, but could not catch a bloodlusted Zoom, because he can go much faster than lightspeed.

Wonder Woman caught Flash is not an odd interpretation but a literal description of what want down in a scene, specifically this scene:



Your scene is a different scene, in which Wonder Woman has not really caught him, and her assuming that he could probably hit her 100000000000000 times specifically like that in a night puts the crazy speed at which that scene must have played at into perspective. And even seeing him as a blur would be quite impressive, if we assume he is waaayyyy beyond light speed, because even at a long distance see humans a fast moving car already bluring and the closer the distance the slower the target needs to be to become a blur. Or do you just say that Wally West has just waaayyyy beyond light speed reactions, but can not remotely move that fast?

Except there are too many other instances of Diana struggling to keep up with Clark, who is near light, much less being able to consistently keep up with someone in Flash's league.

There are just very few scenes of Superman being shown as faster than Wonder Woman, and basically no scenes of her not being able to keep up with him in combat over a longer time period, and even the former are anything but consistent quite evident by the fact that we have currently a long discussion about Wonder Woman reaction to beams even if just barely that are visibly moving faster than Superman himself in the same scene.

Wonder Woman is of course not as fast as Wally West let alone Zoom, but the idea that she could not keep up with Superman let alone other Kryptonians is just as questionable, especially if Wonder Woman has at least around as many scenes with faster Speedsters than Superman or outliers than Superman has scenes of being faster than her.

[Jcogginsa]

"My arguments only count when I say they count".

Okay, since you are committed to maliciously twisting every I say, we're done.

[Rightoya]

Dodge out of the way? Move out of the way? Grab his arms and put some effort into stopping them from grabbing her? Even grab him first and try to apply some kind of leverage to moving him somewhere else? You're the one noting things like Wonder Woman's vast breadth of skill. It's as though again, she just didn't have the speed to try anything. As though she had no time to. As though what immediately happened after her block attempt was her being grabbed. Because that's the comic.

The rest is at this point looking at a comic and seeing what isn't there.

No, actually it's beyond that. If Superman's heat vision is so much faster than him as you're claiming, then Wonder Woman blocking it, at all, let alone a barrage of it, makes her well faster than him, and is that your argument now? Is every time Superman has hit her, at all, Wonder Woman just jobbing out?

Alternatively, the page shows what it shows, and trying to change it to show something different convolutes it into these knots.

Wonder Woman would still not just need to be outright faster but also have a much higher acceleration speed than him to do that right after deflecting the heat vision beams, except maybe if we assume that Superman can just shoot himself into a straight line but not even truly control himself at speed. And your other ideas would just help her if Superman would be not physically stronger, and he is physically stronger like multiple scenes in that fight show. Wonder Woman don't frequently uses skills like pressure points, had no Zeus lightning at that point, and was not even truly willing to fight him at that point. She was fast enough to react to beams visibly faster than Superman himself, and even if we would ignore that she reacted to something faster, Superman was already at speed and Wonder Woman needed to deal with something else in an akward position before having any time to deal with Superman himself, so that whole scene has multiple parts of context speaking against his allegedly overwhelming speed.

I see a lot of context speaking against Superman's allegedly overwhelming speed, even if i just look at what is there.

Where have i claimed that the light beams would be that much faster? They were visibly faster than Superman and she could barely react to them like we already discussed multiple times now, that don't turns her into a blur like Flash or makes it impossible for him to hit her at all, but if you just ask me about scenes like in the from someone already mentioned For Tomorrow yeah i would call that pis or her jobbing out considering how inconsistent that was.

Yeah, and it don't shows overwhelming speed from Superman at all in my opinion.

[Agent Z]

How did this thread go in this direction?

[Rightoya]

How did this thread go in this direction?

That is just my opinion, but this is not truly a fair fight and there is not much value to discuss it, but people like to underestimate Wonder Woman especially in comparison to Superman, and so they will try to make a case for him being clearly faster, a notion i and maybe others disagree with so this discussion started instead.

[Jcogginsa]

How did this thread go in this direction?

Because some people think skimming a post is the same as reading it, and refuse to admit that they fucked up.

[Sharpandpointies]

Well, this thread has certainly gone places.

Setting aside the other issues, I just want to address the whole 'Wonder Woman can block Superman's lightspeed heat vision, but not block Superman...what does this mean, and how is it possible that she's not lightspeed herself if she can block lightspeed stuff.' Okay, let's face it, that entire fight was full of PIS and other garbage. It was poorly written on a number of levels. But let's try to look at this specific feat, and (again, setting aside 'is the feat valid?') how the interpretation might run, for those of you who care about getting into the details.

And I'm doing this because this very thing HAS come up before, in different incarnations (this feat, bullet-timers versus bullets and speedsters, etc).

First point - Clark's heat vision travels in a straight line. This is rather important.

Second point - Clark's attacks, in a fight, do not.

Let's work up to why this matters.

Major league pitchers throw approaching 100mph fastballs that get hit (not always, and it takes a good hitter, but they get hit). Their curveballs often do not, even though they're travelling more slowly. And there's a reason why spitballs are disallowed - the change to the surface of the ball makes it behave in an erratic fashion, even if the ball is moving a lot slower than a close-to 100mph fastball. It makes them horribly difficult to control/predict, and people get beaned by them.

The hitter doesn't need to be moving at 100mph himself to hit the fastball. He just needs to be fast enough to hit it. But he runs into problems with the slower curve ball and swings wildly at the spitball because they do weird, unpredictable things (from his point of view) at the last instant. <-- This is a simplification, but bear with me.

Much like people in a fight.

Moving to Rumbles, we've had discussions in the past about 'if Spider-man/Cassandra Cain/whoever can react to bullets at the speed of sound, why is it that a speedster of Mach 1-2 speed would beat all hell out of them?' Reason is, there's a big difference between a bullet flying in a straight line at someone from a distance and a decent fighter standing in front of someone and dodging, weaving, moving around them, hitting them, adjusting to their defenses at super-speed, varying/changing attacks mid-attack, etc. Which is usually followed by 'Doesn't that make Spider-man/Cassandra Cain mach 1 speedsters if they can react to a bullet?' Nope. They don't need to be as fast as the bullet (moving in a straight line toward them), they just need to be fast ENOUGH.

This is without getting into the muddy ground of 'I can react to stuff moving faster than I can run'. We don't run all that fast, but we can sure react to stuff coming at us faster than we can run. So a Mach one speedster in Cass's and/or Peter Parker's face? Is really reacting/attacking a whole hell of a lot faster than they are.

I bring this up because in the past we've needed actual rulings on this (to keep people from claiming bullet-timers are, again, mach one speedsters or something of that sort, and ALSO on the Wonder Woman/Superman fight scene currently in discussion), and the above was the reasoning behind the ruling (which also dovetails nicely with feats like 'Quicksilver beats all hell out of Spider-man until he forgets he has superspeed/runs in circles around Peter for some unknown reason and doesn't notice Peter is sticking out an arm').

Where I'm leading is this:

1. Diana doesn't need to be lightspeed to block Clark's heat vision. She just needs to be fast enough to get her arms in the proper place to block each 'bolt' in the volley (as I recall, that was the art, Clark for some reason eschewing just doing a wide beam assault on her entire body). Like the major league player trying to hit the 100mph fastball.

Diana blocking his heat vision does NOT show her to be in the lightspeed range of fighting speed, any more than Cass dodging bullets at close range means she breaks the sound barrier every time she throws a punch (substitute any 'bullet-timer' in that equation for Cass, if you like) and is capable of fighting someone moving at mach one.

It's perfectly feasible for Clark - if he's operating at 'near light' - to get his hands on Diana with physical attacks if she's at some speed below him ('decent fraction of lightspeed' is I believe where we used to put her). Especially when she has to deal with a barrage of heat vision bolts as he closes, which she is capable of blocking even without being lightspeed herself.

[Pendaran]

Wonder Woman would still not just need to be outright faster but also have a much higher acceleration speed than him to do that right after deflecting the heat vision beams, except maybe if we assume that Superman can just shoot himself into a straight line but not even truly control himself at speed.

You're at the point where you have to say this for Wonder Woman being all of able to do something as simple as "move out of the way".

And your other ideas would just help her if Superman would be not physically stronger, and he is physically stronger like multiple scenes in that fight show. Wonder Woman don't frequently uses skills like pressure points, had no Zeus lightning at that point, and was not even truly willing to fight him at that point.

The panel you show has all of a shouting "Kal, No!", she should certainly want to defend herself if she was fast enough to, which in her own words, she barely was. Again, if they have speed parity, that she couldn't eve dodge while talking about being able to barely defend herself in time is extremely notable.

I see a lot of context speaking against Superman's allegedly overwhelming speed, even if i just look at what is there.

The context of she managed to barely block one assault from him, then got grabbed without being able to do anything about it? Which, is less "overwhelming" than "faster". She didn't get blitzed into next week by a thousand punches. She got grabbed. As though there's enough of a speed differential that she couldn't really do anything about that.

Where have i claimed that the light beams would be that much faster?

You're doing so right now by logical ramification of your statements to try to lean into the heat vision was so much faster than Superman, that's the real reason Wonder Woman couldn't dodge in time, who by contrast according to you, she has speed parity with.

Yeah, and it don't shows overwhelming speed from Superman at all in my opinion.

A sequence where Wonder Woman notes Superman is going at her at speed, that she can barely defend himself from his initial attacks, and his immediate follow up sees her grabbed without being able to do anything about it, saying that does not show Superman is faster is just denying what's on the page of the comic book. The alternative is basically leaving yourself with having to say she somehow "let" herself be grabbed, which nothing in any of that page even speaks to, remotely.

[Pendaran]

Just for the record, if there was some vast gap between Superman and his heat vision then his usual efforts to use it to shave with should instead go hysterically.

[Sharpandpointies]

Just for the record, if there was some vast gap between Superman and his heat vision then his usual efforts to use it to shave with should instead go hysterically.

[Clark] *looking over his shoulder at the hole in the bathroom wall* Ooopsie.

[Lois] CLAAAAAAARK!

[Dark Soul # 7]

[Clark] *looking over his shoulder at the hole in the bathroom wall* Ooopsie.

[Lois] CLAAAAAAARK!

Clark: This is why I keep suggesting that we need to invest in a bathroom with mirror walls.

[The Watcher]

Moderator Mode Activated
@Jcogginsa - You are violating Rumbles Standards for Evidence by having inconsistent standards for judging feats when it comes to Flash and Superman and other characters, as well as failing to acknowledge the existence of PIS when it suits your purposes. Because this conduct seems to be linked to Superman, you are hereby banned until futher notice from discussing him on this or any other thread on the Rumbles Board.

@Rightoya - Analyzing the scans posted, they fail to prove that Wonder Woman has equivalent speed to Superman but instead indicate his speed is superior. If you wish to continue posting on this thread you will cease to assert Wonder Woman is Superman's equal in speed unless new evidence which actually supports that claim is presented.

[Sharpandpointies]

Clark: This is why I keep suggesting that we need to invest in a bathroom with mirror walls.

Mirror walls apparently made of the same material as his spacecraft. As I recall, that's what his mirror is (a piece of his spacecraft).

If not...that's a pretty tough mirror. I mean, if it's reflecting 99% of the light (which would be insanely good for a bathroom mirror, based on a quick search), the mirror is still absorbing 1% of the energy necessary to burn off some of Superman's hair. AND normal mirrors aren't terribly good at reflecting IR.

A normal bathroom mirror would get wrecked every time he tries to shave.

.....

Typical for Rumbles, we have drifted into bizarre territory.

[Pendaran]

Mirror walls apparently made of the same material as his spacecraft. As I recall, that's what his mirror is (a piece of his spacecraft).

If not...that's a pretty tough mirror. I mean, if it's reflecting 99% of the light (which would be insanely good for a bathroom mirror, based on a quick search), the mirror is still absorbing 1% of the energy necessary to burn off some of Superman's hair. AND normal mirrors aren't terribly good at reflecting IR.

A normal bathroom mirror would get wrecked every time he tries to shave.

.....

Typical for Rumbles, we have drifted into bizarre territory.

It was a deeply simple point that we got started off of ;p

But that's also typical.

[Sharpandpointies]

It was a deeply simple point that we got started off of ;p

I'm a simple person, what can I say.

But that's also typical.

Truth.