Wonder Woman vs Invincible

[Rightoya]

Or we could just go with what happened, which is that she said she was barely able to do the defense of herself, and quite shortly after got grabbed, which is well in line with a character being faster than she is.

Or we could just don't give Superman the speed of the clearly faster heat vision beams, and don't pretend like Superman must be faster for some reason.

[Jcogginsa]

Let me clarify for you then, saying "well clearly Flash was just going conveniently slow enough to be tagged" makes those showings then not worth anything, for showing anything of substance.

No, what it means is "Absent evidence specific to the scene itself, reacting to the Flash would not be substantially different to reacting to Superman, because his standard operating speed is not to move at Superman-statuing speed."

[Pendaran]

No, what it means is "Absent evidence specific to the scene itself, reacting to the Flash would not be substantially different to reacting to Superman, because his standard operating speed is not to move at Superman-statuing speed."

That again means nothing more than saying "anytime I need it to make someone look good, the Flash is going exactly the speed I need him to, and is not in fact being underwritten". The problem with that in logic is that if you agree that the Flash is faster than Superman, considerably, then whenever he isn't, he is by definition being underwritten. That's just logic.

We don't use "well the Flash is vastly underperforming" as some proof of how fast another character must be.

[Pendaran]

Or we could just don't give Superman the speed of the clearly faster heat vision beams, and don't pretend like Superman must be faster for some reason.

Except that's not what the page shows, or Diana states. There's no "I'm barely defending myself from Superman's heat vision, which is clearly also some nebulous degree faster than he is", there's Superman being fast enough to use his heat vision like a barrage as he comes in, which Diana notes she can barely defend herself against in time, and then, as though dealing with a guy she's just noted is fast enough to give her problems like that, she gets grabbed without really being able to do much about it.

[Jcogginsa]

That again means nothing more than saying "anytime I need it to make someone look good, the Flash is going exactly the speed I need him to, and is not in fact being underwritten". The problem with that in logic is that if you agree that the Flash is faster than Superman, considerably, then whenever he isn't, he is by definition being underwritten. That's just logic.

We don't use "well the Flash is vastly underperforming" as some proof of how fast another character must be.

No, a character not using max effort for every single situation is not them being underwritten.

Superman statuing speed is something that the comics frame as a "Special occasion, not every occasion" thing, whereas in normal circumstances, he moves at speeds in Superman's ballpark. That is actual logic, because it looks at the facts in universe and draws a conclusion based on those.

[Cronus]

I figured it was a devil's advocate moment, "what is her theoretical maximum", with the point being to say "Even at her highest possible interpretation, Mark's still not a statue". (A point which would have fallen a bit flat because she's got that one super bonkers feat lying around)....

Post-Crisis
-Tagged Zoom (I think? I've always had trouble Zolomon and Eobard's costumes apart) while blinded. The scene directly states that He's moving at lightspeed

It was Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) and it is not remotely legitimate given his presentation as well over even post Crisis Wally West who waaayyyy beyond light speed in terms of reactions.

-Caught Wally in her lasso when he was stuck moving at Super Speed

An odd interpretation of what went down in that book given Diana's own statements....

flashdiana.jpg

"Caught" seems to imply she is actually in the same ball park as Wally West. Not remotely true. In fact, the only way she tagged Wally was by anticipating his next move and timing it just right...

flashdiana2.jpg

-Statements that she's almost as fast as the Flash

...Mean nothing.

(And as far as reacting to Flash and Reverse Flash go, I don't think those are tremendous outliers because while Barry and Wally can make Clark into a statue, I doubt that's there normal cruising speed.

Clark is in fact a statue to Wally West. No other way to see it. Wally is orders of magnitude faster than Clark. I've mentioned this before; I'll mention it again: here, the gauge is "high feats consistent with the character's presentation".

If they moved at that speed all of the time, Clark would have figured out that they're holding back massively in their races.)

As I recall, most of those races between Clark and the Flash took place pre Crisis. And there was Barry's statement to Clark, that "those were for charity".

Clark cannot compare to Wally West much less Hunter Zolomon.

[Pendaran]

No, a character not using max effort for every single situation is not them being underwritten.

Superman statuing speed is something that the comics frame as a "Special occasion, not every occasion" thing, whereas in normal circumstances, he moves at speeds in Superman's ballpark. That is actual logic, because it looks at the facts in universe and draws a conclusion based on those.

Considering how much faster the Flash is than Superman, the idea that he'd have to be using max effort to outspeed him is certainly interesting.

And I'm really at this point going to just refer you to the FAQ for actual standards for evidence here that you seem to feel Superman gets a pass for.

By "the actual facts in universe" otherwise, Deathstroke for instance can outdraw Superman, and has. That happened in comics. In fact, none of these people must really be all that fast. People with little to no superspeed mess around with and hit them all the time, over and over and over again. Speed must in fact be completely worthless, most of the time, going by your standards of "logic".

The standard of this board is not "so long as it happened it counts", it's not "if it happened we have to try to make it make sense", the entire idea here is that showings can be weighed for validity between characters and entirely discounted if they do things like, say, ignore the Flash having vastly better speed performances than Superman.

There is no in universe logic for why those are ignored beyond "The writer wanted to ignore them". But! The writer isn't here, and we don't have to abide by that standard. We instead indeed actually try and act like these characters have these powers and can use them to the degree they have shown validity with using them.

[Jcogginsa]

It was Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) and it is not remotely legitimate given his presentation as well over even post Crisis Wally West who waaayyyy beyond light speed in terms of reactions.

Yes, he is capable of moving that fast. In the actual scene, he was only moving at lightspeed

An odd interpretation of what went down in that book given Diana's own statements....

flashdiana.jpg

in fact, the only way she tagged Wally was by anticipating his next move and timing it just right...

flashdiana2.jpg

What issue is that? Because it doesn't look like the same scans that I saw, which were from JLA #77

Mean nothing.

It's supporting evidence. On it's own, it means nothing. But when placed next to other instances of Diana moving at similar speeds, it supports the argument that Diana is presented as being in that ballpark of speed.

Clark is in fact a statue to Wally West. No other way to see it. Wally is orders of magnitude faster than Clark.

As I recall, most of those races between Clark and the Flash took place pre Crisis. And there was Barry's statement to Clark, that "those were for charity".

Clark cannot compare to Wally West much less Hunter Zolomon.

Please read what I am actually saying, instead of of just skimming my words and assuming that you know.

Wally and Barry are both capable of moving faster than Superman, substantially so. I am not disputing that.

What I am saying is that those levels of speed are not their default travel speeds. And My reasoning for that goes back to the same scene that you are referencing: Clark thinks that the speeds Barry pulled off in their races are close to his actual top speed. If Barry was always using speeds that turned Clark into a statue, Clark would have noticed before then.

Because of this, if you see a scene where the Flash is just generically running, with no frame of reference to use in order to determine what speed he is going at, then you should not assume that he is moving at Clark-Statue Speed.

[Jcogginsa]

Considering how much faster the Flash is than Superman, the idea that he'd have to be using max effort to outspeed him is certainly interesting.

It's an expression, don't read too much into it. It's quick that saying "More effort than he usually does"

The standard of this board is not "so long as it happened it counts", it's not "if it happened we have to try to make it make sense", the entire idea here is that showings can be weighed for validity between characters and entirely discounted if they do things like, say, ignore the Flash having vastly better speed performances than Superman.

Yes, and my logic is entirely sensical.

These are the facts in need of reconciliation
1. Barry is fast enough to make Clark a Statue
2. Clark thinks he can keep up with Barry.

Thus the logical conclusion

3. While Barry is capable of moving faster than Superman by a significant degree, he does not habitually do so.

[Pendaran]

Your logic requires making up extra details for comics that do not exist in them, while also not acknowledging that your logic also requires explaining all the times Superman gets constantly hit by people so much slower than him. After all now, according to you, no one ever really underperforms.

By your standards, we should stop debating these characters like any of them have superspeed at all.

3. While Barry is capable of moving faster than Superman by a significant degree, he does not habitually do so.

Which is Barry being underwritten so that there can be a plot, generally. We have a term for that here as far as showings we don't consider valid. I again recommend you read the standards for evidence weighing on this board.

[Pendaran]

Thread is right there:

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ules-and-FAQs)

[Jcogginsa]

Your logic requires making up extra details for comics that do not exist in them,

What did I make up? Be specific.

while also not acknowledging that your logic also requires explaining all the times Superman gets constantly hit by people so much slower than him. After all now, according to you, no one ever really underperforms.

I never said anything of the sort, do not twist my words. My statements apply to Barry, because there is evidence to believe such about Barry in certain circumstances.

Which is Barry being underwritten so that there can be a plot, generally. We have a term for that here as far as showings we don't consider valid. I again recommend you read the standards for evidence weighing on this board.

No, it isn't. It's because Barry in the comics is an actual character instead of being under rumbles bloodlust.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

PIS/CIS are explicitly things, shown multiple times and explained to you, specifically, multiple times. So this really isn't your first rodeo as far as getting called out for this bad-faith, board rules ignoring crap.

Why are you back at it?

[Cronus]

Yes, he is capable of moving that fast. In the actual scene, he was only moving at lightspeed

You're kind of making my point for me here...is light speed the fastest Zolomon can move?

Attachment 102919

In fact, as Zolomon often does, he was toying with Diana in that book.

What issue is that? Because it doesn't look like the same scans that I saw, which were from JLA #77

They're from JLA Classified 17. Puts JLA 77 into context and is better representative of the difference between Diana and Wally West.

It's supporting evidence. On it's own, it means nothing. But when placed next to other instances of Diana moving at similar speeds, it supports the argument that Diana is presented as being in that ballpark of speed.

Except there are too many other instances of Diana struggling to keep up with Clark, who is near light, much less being able to consistently keep up with someone in Flash's league.

Please read what I am actually saying, instead of of just skimming my words and assuming that you know.

Wally and Barry are both capable of moving faster than Superman, substantially so. I am not disputing that.

Yeah, you really are though, or you would not have even mentioned Wonder Woman tagging Zolomon and Wally West, as if that is somehow magically more representative of Diana's actual reaction speed.

What I am saying is that those levels of speed are not their default travel speeds.

But they are here. That is my point. Like I said here today and I said in our previous discussion, "high feats consistent with the character's presentation" is what we go by. Hunter Zolomon only moving at light speed doesn't fly around here because most here know he is faaaarrrr faster than that, and Wally isn't too far behind Zoom.

And My reasoning for that goes back to the same scene that you are referencing: Clark thinks that the speeds Barry pulled off in their races are close to his actual top speed. If Barry was always using speeds that turned Clark into a statue, Clark would have noticed before then.

Amazing that you would draw that conclusion when Clark was literally blown away by Barry Allan in that book. You seem really resistant to how feats are evaluated here on these forums. I suggest reading the FAQ's and mod rulings, as I suggested you do in the discussion about WBH.

[Pendaran]

What did I make up? Be specific.

The speeds Barry "must" be moving at. The reasons noted in why.

I never said anything of the sort, do not twist my words. My statements apply to Barry, because there is evidence to believe such about Barry in certain circumstances.

That you do not like it when I apply the logical ramifications of your words across all characters evenly is your own problem.

Why is it that this only applies to Barry and Superman, and not, say, Superman and all the people with little to no speed to speak of who constantly hit and react to him? Why the double standard? Why by your logic isn't it that Superman must so "habitually" not use his speed that we shouldn't even really consider it? Look how many times that happens in comics, the place where by your logic, everything counts and we should just make up some reason for why it all counts.

It's as though this is why we don't bother with your type of "logic".

No, it isn't. It's because Barry in the comics is an actual character instead of being under rumbles bloodlust.

You certainly seem to dislike the evidence standards of a moderated debate board you post on a bunch.