Wonder Woman vs Invincible

[Agent Z]

Diana has a composite of her pre and post-Flashpoint feats. Who wins?

[Captain Morgan]

I think Diana's speed feats are better and her sword should cut Mark fine, so.... Her.

[Nik Hasta]

I think Diana's speed feats are better and her sword should cut Mark fine, so.... Her.

Pretty much this. It's a reasonably tough fight, while she's faster than him, he's not a statue and, by the end of series, Mark is quite impressively strong.

But yeah, she's faster, far more skilled and has a sword that should cut him.

[Captain Morgan]

Pretty much this. It's a reasonably tough fight, while she's faster than him, he's not a statue and, by the end of series, Mark is quite impressively strong.

But yeah, she's faster, far more skilled and has a sword that should cut him.

The sword and the know how to use it is just a really substantial edge. Pun not intended. Plus, I think she got really potent lightning just before Flashpoint. Like, "blows up people her normal attacks bounce off" potent.

If you made this hand to hand only and equalized speed, Mark would probably have a shot.

[Cody]

Pretty much this. It's a reasonably tough fight, while she's faster than him, he's not a statue and, by the end of series, Mark is quite impressively strong.

But yeah, she's faster, far more skilled and has a sword that should cut him.

Outside of flight, Mark is pretty much a statue to anyone with the speed WW has as he has a grand total of one reaction speed feat that i can recall involving a convo he and a friend were having while Mark was going back and forth bringing his stuff over to their dorm. Other than that we have his dad helping out with a fire but it is kinda ambiguous of a feat.

Best we can say about their reactions is that their CBPH at best.

[Cody]

The sword and the know how to use it is just a really substantial edge. Pun not intended. Plus, I think she got really potent lightning just before Flashpoint. Like, "blows up people her normal attacks bounce off" potent.

If you made this hand to hand only and equalized speed, Mark would probably have a shot.

It would be a stomp even if speed was equalized, shr is a vastly more skilled and experienced fighter than he is

[Nik Hasta]

Outside of flight, Mark is pretty much a statue to anyone with the speed WW has as he has a grand total of one reaction speed feat that i can recall involving a convo he and a friend were having while Mark was going back and forth bringing his stuff over to their dorm. Other than that we have his dad helping out with a fire but it is kinda ambiguous of a feat.

Best we can say about their reactions is that their CBPH at best.

Flatly untrue, but go off.

[Cody]

Flatly untrue, but go off.

How so? If you have feats for their reaction feats then by all means, provide some please. For, from my reading of the series I've never seen any notable reaction feats that put them even remotely close to near light(like WW)whatsoever. They have never blitzed anyone, and have never appeared to move So fast that normal people were rendered to be statues. Heck, Eve can keep up with them just fine, as could Rudy.

Again, if I am misremembering then that is fine, but provide feats of reaction speeds for Invincible please.

[Nik Hasta]

No, it isn't. If you have feats for their reaction feats then by all means, provide some instead of just saying "untrue". For from my reading of the series I've never seen any notable reaction feats from them whatsoever, they have never blitzed anyone, and have never appeared to move ao fast that normal people were rendered to be statues.

Again, if I am misremembering then that is fine, but provide feats of reaction speeds for Invincible please.

Smattering of Viltrumite speed feats in no particular order:

- The aforementioned dorm feat, where Mark is - mid conversation - flying boxes from his home to his dorm in another state while his roommate isn't seeing him enter the room or noticing what he's doing.
- When Mark is in bed with his girlfriend, she is on top of him and the lights need to be turned off. Mark gets out from under her, crosses the room and turns the lights off with such speed that she doesn't notice him move.
- When playing catch with his father, Mark is capable of perceiving and catching a baseball thrown at such speed it circles the entire globe in a matter of seconds.
- When Mark is fighting Conquest for the first time, their fight is moving around the planet so fast that Cecil specifically notes "I would drop every super hero on the planet on them but by the time we've even opened a teleport gate they are already five miles away,"
- Red Rush is a speedster character who is capable of dashing across a city and stopping a robbery between words in a sentence and subsequently changing his costume nigh-on instantaneously with no one seeing him move. He gets blitzed and killed by Omni-man (A Viltrumite) very easily.
- Mark has multiple feats of changing his outfit between words with no one seeing him move, on one occasion he actually switched outfits with a dead parallel universe version of himself and gave himself a hair cut in the space of a matter of seconds.
- When Dinosaurus has bombs set up in Las Vegas, Mark zips off and finds one in a second commenting that it was pretty easy to do. Dinosaurus, a super genius character who was pretty intimately familiar with Mark's abilities by that point, responds that 50 bombs hidden around the city was too many for Mark to find before they went off giving you an idea of his capacities.

And that's on top of all the feats of flight speed as well, flying from America to the Arctic Circle in 37 seconds shortly after his powers first awakened, blitzing rushing people into high orbit in seconds, outrunning teleportation across the USA, being outstripped by Adult Viltrumites in combat in terms of speed and then coming to surpass them.

Viltrumites definitely have well beyond CBPH reaction times.

[Cody]

- The aforementioned dorm feat, where Mark is - mid conversation - flying boxes from his home to his dorm in another state while his roommate isn't seeing him enter the room or noticing what he's doing.

He also isn't paying attention while talking to Mark on the phone, all Mark has to be is faster than him while zooming back and forth. This requires CBPH reactions with supersonic+ flight speed at minimum.

When Mark is in bed with his girlfriend, she is on top of him and the lights need to be turned off. Mark gets out from under her, crosses the room and turns the lights off with such speed that she doesn't notice him move.

? I do not recall this happening, was this during the time Eve was obese(not that it would impact her reaction speed, just trying to pinpoint when It happened, been several months since I read through the series)? And Couldn't a CBPH easily do that without someone with normal reactions noticing(heck, Batman has done something similar, moving faster than a person sitting right infront of him could blink)? I could be wrong, but it would be a stretch to assume that is even remotely close to a significant fraction of light reaction speed.

When playing catch with his father, Mark is capable of perceiving and catching a baseball thrown at such speed it circles the entire globe in a matter of seconds.

This is a showing against the speed WW can move at considering light can circle the globe a couple of times in a second. We don't even know how long it took the ball to circle the globe, but it was long enough that they were able to talk in between

When Mark is fighting Conquest for the first time, their fight is moving around the planet so fast that Cecil specifically notes "I would drop every super hero on the planet on them but by the time we've even opened a teleport gate they are already five miles away,"

This is another example of flight speed as they were flying(and tossing/punching each other hard enough to send one another flying) around the planet.

Red Rush is a speedster character who is capable of dashing across a city and stopping a robbery between words in a sentence and subsequently changing his costume nigh-on instantaneously with no one seeing him move. He gets blitzed and killed by Omni-man (A Viltrumite) very easily.

Nope, he was caught off guard. When Mark went back in time and led his father to their headquarters, the speedster in question, due to not being caught of guard this time, actually blitzed Omniman.

Couldn't harm him, but he was shown to be clearly much faster than him.

Mark has multiple feats of changing his outfit between words with no one seeing him move, on one occasion he actually switched outfits with a dead parallel universe version of himself and gave himself a hair cut in the space of a matter of seconds.

No timeframe was given on the haircut thing, as for the changing of costumes, every time that happened Mark either had the outfit on under his clothes, or he took off and came back as Invincible after people noticed he had left.

When Dinosaurus has bombs set up in Las Vegas, Mark zips off and finds one in a second commenting that it was pretty easy to do.

How do you know only a second passed? Dude can fly at FTL speeds and is in the city. He failed to get all the bombs too as he was at ground zero when they went off(did jack to him other than wipe out his costume)

Dinosaurus, a super genius character who was pretty intimately familiar with Mark's abilities by that point, responds that 50 bombs hidden around the city was too many for Mark to find before they went off giving you an idea of his capacities.

I remember. And Mark failed to get them. I don't see someone with WWs speed failing at that tbh.

And that's on top of all the feats of flight speed as well, flying from America to the Arctic Circle in 37 seconds shortly after his powers first awakened, blitzing rushing people into high orbit in seconds, outrunning teleportation across the USA, being outstripped by Adult Viltrumites in combat in terms of speed and then coming to surpass them.

When it comes to speed, Viltrumites seem to be all pretty even really. The main difference between them seem to wildly range in physical strength and durability, not speed.

Viltrumites definitely have well beyond CBPH reaction times.

Idk man. From what was given above i can see a CBPH with FTL-MFTL(which is Marks flight speed)doing the things above. If we are being generous, at best we could maybe say his reactions are about as fast as WWs flight speed, or his reactions might even be in the Thor-Sentry reaction ballpark, which is still nowhere near as fast as the near light WW.

[Nik Hasta]

That's a lot of poor interpretation and misrepresentation of the relevant feats there.

He also isn't paying attention while talking to Mark on the phone, all Mark has to be is faster than him while zooming back and forth. This requires CBPH reactions with supersonic+ flight speed at minimum.

This is a ridiculous interpretation of the feat. Scan for the peanut gallery:





Mark is travelling from his location, several hours drive away in a different state, moving into the room and placing the boxes and going back in literally a second at most. Please note that he's making the trip with enough time to pick up the phone and hear what William is saying to him and carry the conversation. No CBPH person could move that fast with that level of precision. He also changes clothes again on the second page.

? I do not recall this happening, was this during the time Eve was obese(not that it would impact her reaction speed, just trying to pinpoint when It happened, been several months since I read through the series)? And Couldn't a CBPH easily do that without someone with normal reactions noticing(heck, Batman has done something similar, moving faster than a person sitting right infront of him could blink)? I could be wrong, but it would be a stretch to assume that is even remotely close to a significant fraction of light reaction speed.

Scan viewable here.

And no Batman could not do this.

Also, still not claiming he's lightspeed.

This is a showing against the speed WW can move at considering light can circle the globe a couple of times in a second. We don't even know how long it took the ball to circle the globe, but it was long enough that they were able to talk in between

First up, my contention was that Mark "not a statue," not that he was as fast as Wondy. Your view was "Best we can say about their reactions is that their CBPH at best." Something that is a wild underselling of Viltrumites can do.

Second, to my recollection, Wondy herself isn't lightspeed. She's a significant fraction of it and has done stuff like running from one country to another in an extremely short timespan but she's not lightspeed or faster so I'm not sure what your point is.

Third, based on the conversations in between throws, the ball went around the Earth in maybe... 30 seconds or something if I'm lowballing. Running rudimentary numbers that would clock them going at like 1335 kilometres a second. For reference that's literally about a thousand times faster than a .50 calibre bullet. Mark catches it multiple times casually. No CBPH could come close to doing that. Bullet timers could not do that. People with outright superspeed, can.

This is another example of flight speed as they were flying(and tossing/punching each other hard enough to send one another flying) around the planet.

*Characters have a fight in which they are moving so fast no one else on the planet can keep up*

Cody: This is not a combat speed feat.

Okay chief, you do you do.

Nope, he was caught off guard. When Mark went back in time and led his father to their headquarters, the speedster in question, due to not being caught of guard this time, actually blitzed Omniman.

Couldn't harm him, but he was shown to be clearly much faster than him.

Incorrect. Looking at the sequence in the "Reboot?" arc. Mark brings Omniman to the headquarters, Red Rush is not present. He then arrives and catches Omniman off-guard. On the very next page, Omniman tags him with ease and throws him around with the rest of the team.

At no point was he shown to be "much faster," than Omniman. The most generous interpretation is that they are both capable of catching the other with a blitz if the other is off guard.

No timeframe was given on the haircut thing, as for the changing of costumes, every time that happened Mark either had the outfit on under his clothes, or he took off and came back as Invincible after people noticed he had left.

Factually inaccurate. In the haircut sequence, Mark is in his own costume and has a full head of hair. His parallel self is dead on the floor in his costume. We see a Viltrumite underling banging on the door and the next panel shows speed lines as he's talking as Mark uses his obvious superspeed and the next panel has him entering the room seeing Mark in his disguise. In that time Mark has put his costume on to the dead body, changed into his parallel self's outfit and has cut his hair to match the guys haircut.

Like, get out of here with your downplaying.

Also, to your other point:



Oh look, Mark instantaneously changing his costume in between Eve saying words. Look how that's not what you're describing at all.

How do you know only a second passed? Dude can fly at FTL speeds and is in the city. He failed to get all the bombs too as he was at ground zero when they went off(did jack to him other than wipe out his costume)

I remember. And Mark failed to get them. I don't see someone with WWs speed failing at that tbh.

*sigh*

You're not reading my post correctly. For the first bomb, they are in downtown Vegas. Dinosaurus tells him about the bombs. There is a single panel where Mark zips out of frame and he comes back holding a bomb commenting "Wow, this wasn't even that hard to find," It is, at most, a single second given that Dinosaurus has enough time to say "What?" and in that timeframe he presumably searched a reasonable area of Vegas to find that first bomb.

Dinosaurus then says that he intended for him to find that one and there are a further 50 bombs hidden around the city. Mark's like "How much time do I have?" clearly somewhat confident in his ability to search an entire city in a short timeframe and Dinosaurus says "Not enough," and says that he's not sure he'll survive the blast.

Then the city explodes.

And again, I am not saying that he's as fast as Wondy. Though, I find the idea of Wonder Woman searching a city for 50 bombs in what amounts to a few seconds feels a bit beyond her capacities. The Flash, sure. Wondy? Nah. My point is that he's wildly faster than peak human.

When it comes to speed, Viltrumites seem to be all pretty even really. The main difference between them seem to wildly range in physical strength and durability, not speed.

Incorrect. In his first combat with actual Viltrumites with his father, Mark is shown to be concretely not able to outrun Lucan and exhausts himself trying, something he didn't think was previously possible. Mark then goes on to become stronger and faster than all other Viltrumites except Thragg.

Idk man. From what was given above i can see a CBPH with FTL-MFTL(which is Marks flight speed)doing the things above. If we are being generous, at best we could maybe say his reactions are about as fast as WWs flight speed, or his reactions might even be in the Thor-Sentry reaction ballpark, which is still nowhere near as fast as the near light WW.

Again, I never claimed he was that fast. I said he wasn't a statue to her, which is true given his many pretty decent speed feats. You said he was CBPH, a laughably false thing and asked me for feats. Maybe stick to the argument we're actually having?

[Cody]

This is a ridiculous interpretation of the feat. Scan for the peanut gallery:

Your own scan shows him being completely unaware of Marks things just popping up around him because he is too busy talking to Mark. He doesn't notice the box that pops up, then he doesn't notice the picture and such popping up behind him on the dresser in the next, then the rest of Marks things and Mark himself by the end. Your own scans show exactly what i detailed.

Mark is travelling from his location, several hours drive away in a different state, moving into the room and placing the boxes and going back in literally a second at most. Please note that he's making the trip with enough time to pick up the phone and hear what William is saying to him and carry the conversation. No CBPH person could move that fast with that level of precision. He also changes clothes again on the second page.

Mark says something, then while hos friend is talking he flies over with some of his things and flies back home, says something to his friend, beings more of his stuff while his friend is talking, and repeats. All this, while his friend is looking the other way. So yeah, only had to be faster than a normal human while his flight does the work.

Also, still not claiming he's lightspeed.

No, you're claiming he is a respectable fraction of light when you stated the near lightspeeding Wonder Woman isn't much faster than him.

First up, my contention was that Mark "not a statue," not that he was as fast as Wondy. Your view was "Best we can say about their reactions is that their CBPH at best." Something that is a wild underselling of Viltrumites can do.

From my POV It's based on their consistent presentation really. Blitzing normal people while having mftl travel speed is one thing, being not much slower than a near lightspeed character is quite another.

Second, to my recollection, Wondy herself isn't lightspeed. She's a significant fraction of it and has done stuff like running from one country to another in an extremely short timespan but she's not lightspeed or faster so I'm not sure what your point is.

I specifically said near, not at lightspeed. I mentioned light because WW herself is near it so she herself should be able to circle the globe once in at least a second yes? And the feat you just mentioned seems far superior than anything a Viltrumite has done.

Third, based on the conversations in between throws, the ball went around the Earth in maybe... 30 seconds or something if I'm lowballing. Running rudimentary numbers that would clock them going at like 1335 kilometres a second. For reference that's literally about a thousand times faster than a .50 calibre bullet. Mark catches it multiple times casually. No CBPH could come close to doing that. Bullet timers could not do that. People with outright superspeed, can.

So you're trying to say this makes them not a statue to someone who can easily run much faster than that ball?

*Characters have a fight in which they are moving so fast no one else on the planet can keep up*

Cody: This is not a combat speed feat.

Okay chief, you do you do.

Not sure what the issue is. They aren't running across the globe, they are flying into eachother while sending eachother across great distances with their strength, thus they don't stay in one location long enough for everyone to pop in. A speed feat this does not make as it isn't reliant on anything other than a combination of hitting each other hard enough, and flying.

Incorrect. Looking at the sequence in the "Reboot?" arc. Mark brings Omniman to the headquarters, Red Rush is not present. He then arrives and catches Omniman off-guard. On the very next page, Omniman tags him with ease and throws him around with the rest of the team.

Iirc, we don't even see how he tags him because it is happening off panel while Mark is talking.

At no point was he shown to be "much faster," than Omniman. The most generous interpretation is that they are both capable of catching the other with a blitz if the other is off guard.

I don't see any Viltrumite ever having the reaction feats on the level shown by Red Rush, even with what you have provided. Is what you described Red Rush having done not superior to the baseball feat?

Factually inaccurate. In the haircut sequence, Mark is in his own costume and has a full head of hair. His parallel self is dead on the floor in his costume. We see a Viltrumite underling banging on the door and the next panel shows speed lines as he's talking as Mark uses his obvious superspeed and the next panel has him entering the room seeing Mark in his disguise. In that time Mark has put his costume on to the dead body, changed into his parallel self's outfit and has cut his hair to match the guys haircut.

Okay, cool. So far we have well above peak human, but wouldn't that still be massively slower than WW?

Like, get out of here with your downplaying.

I could say you are doing the reverse for a series we bothlike.

Also, to your other point:

Oh look, Mark instantaneously changing his costume in between Eve saying words. Look how that's not what you're describing at all.

I don't remember everything from my first reading of the series.

You're not reading my post correctly. For the first bomb, they are in downtown Vegas. Dinosaurus tells him about the bombs. There is a single panel where Mark zips out of frame and he comes back holding a bomb commenting "Wow, this wasn't even that hard to find," It is, at most, a single second given that Dinosaurus has enough time to say "What?" and in that timeframe he presumably searched a reasonable area of Vegas to find that first bomb.

Dinosaurus then says that he intended for him to find that one and there are a further 50 bombs hidden around the city. Mark's like "How much time do I have?" clearly somewhat confident in his ability to search an entire city in a short timeframe and Dinosaurus says "Not enough," and says that he's not sure he'll survive the blast.

Then the city explodes.

And again, I am not saying that he's as fast as Wondy. Though, I find the idea of Wonder Woman searching a city for 50 bombs in what amounts to a few seconds feels a bit beyond her capacities. The Flash, sure. Wondy? Nah. My point is that he's wildly faster than peak human.

Great, so I forgot some of the feats mentioned since its been so long since I read the series, thus making him well beyond CBPH. But how is that like the near light Wondy? I mean a city is one thing, but the feat you described for WW still seems wildly beyond that.

Incorrect. In his first combat with actual Viltrumites with his father, Mark is shown to be concretely not able to outrun Lucan and exhausts himself trying, something he didn't think was previously possible. Mark then goes on to become stronger and faster than all other Viltrumites except Thragg.

Yeah but he could still keep up with them in a fight just fine when they fought. So it isn't like there is this great gap on speed between them.

Again, I never claimed he was that fast. I said he wasn't a statue to her, which is true given his many pretty decent speed feats. You said he was CBPH, a laughably false thing and asked me for feats. Maybe stick to the argument we're actually having?

I am. You claimed he wasn't a statue to WW, which would mean his reactions are a fraction of light. I claimed he was CBPH and asked for scans showing otherwise. How is that not on topic lol? And considering even the baseball feat is well below the speed needed to not be either a statue, or at most a turtle to WW...He isn't putting up much of a fight like you claim he could.

Ignoring speed, of this is current Wondy, wouldn't that make her nearly as strong as current Superman? The guy who shatters planets just by jumping off of them while nearly out of power? Pretty sure no Viltrumite could survive a single punch from something ike that.

[Captain Morgan]

To be clear, Diana is slower than Superman who is slower than light. I tend to think of her as the lights peed equivalent of a bullet timer. She can react to and deflect light speed projectiles, but she tends to get overwhelmed by kryptonians who are actually pouring on the speed.

That Maxwell Lord fight is a good illustration. Superman fires a machine gun burst style heat vision as he charges her, timed close enough together for multiple bolts to be hanging in the air. She manages to block them but can't get out of the way and stop him from bull rushing her off planet.

Invincible speed feats are often a bit vague, so I'm not completely sure how they stack up. But Nik's analysis seems good and he's got more experience with speed algorithms than most of us, so I'm inclined to take his word for it.


Ultimately, it isn't going to matter much, because Wonder Woman doesn't need to be THAT much faster with her sword.


Also, I'm reluctant to use Superman as a benchmark for Wonder Woman just because she's been all over the place post Flash Point. Sometimes she's slugging it out with Clark, and other times she's slugging it out with Aquaman. I'm not really sure what her legit baseline is.

[Nik Hasta]

I'm not going to bother to line by line respond to this because it's honestly not worth it since you've retracted your ridiculous "CBPH at best" assertion.

I am. You claimed he wasn't a statue to WW, which would mean his reactions are a fraction of light. I claimed he was CBPH and asked for scans showing otherwise. How is that not on topic lol? And considering even the baseball feat is well below the speed needed to not be either a statue, or at most a turtle to WW...He isn't putting up much of a fight like you claim he could.

I said, "he's not a statue," that was the sum total of my commitment to his speed versus Wondy's.

While Wondy is faster than him, based on the feats I have listed above, his ridiculously fast flight speed, the fact he and other Viltrumites regularly use their speed in combat, he is definitely not so slow that he would be literally frozen to her. That was my only point on the speed thing.

Tell you what, indulge me - what's Wondy's best speed feat at the moment? Give me something to scale off of here.

[Jcogginsa]

To be clear, Diana is slower than Superman who is slower than light. I tend to think of her as the lights peed equivalent of a bullet timer. She can react to and deflect light speed projectiles, but she tends to get overwhelmed by kryptonians who are actually pouring on the speed.

That Maxwell Lord fight is a good illustration. Superman fires a machine gun burst style heat vision as he charges her, timed close enough together for multiple bolts to be hanging in the air. She manages to block them but can't get out of the way and stop him from bull rushing her off planet.

Invincible speed feats are often a bit vague, so I'm not completely sure how they stack up. But Nik's analysis seems good and he's got more experience with speed algorithms than most of us, so I'm inclined to take his word for it.


Ultimately, it isn't going to matter much, because Wonder Woman doesn't need to be THAT much faster with her sword.


Also, I'm reluctant to use Superman as a benchmark for Wonder Woman just because she's been all over the place post Flash Point. Sometimes she's slugging it out with Clark, and other times she's slugging it out with Aquaman. I'm not really sure what her legit baseline is.

I mean Sometimes Aquaman is slugging it out with supes in the New 52, for whatever that's worth.

Tell you what, indulge me - what's Wondy's best speed feat at the moment? Give me something to scale off of here.

Well this fight includes post-crisis feats, which would mean her highest end is probably the shattered god feat, where she deflected the pieces of the shattered god. Deets here and here. Issue numbers are 193 and 194.

The highest end interpretation of this feat is "Wonder Woman deflects trillions of projectiles flying in from every corner of the universe".