Wonder Woman vs Invincible

[Username taken]

To be clear, Diana is slower than Superman who is slower than light. I tend to think of her as the lights peed equivalent of a bullet timer. She can react to and deflect light speed projectiles, but she tends to get overwhelmed by kryptonians who are actually pouring on the speed.

That Maxwell Lord fight is a good illustration. Superman fires a machine gun burst style heat vision as he charges her, timed close enough together for multiple bolts to be hanging in the air. She manages to block them but can't get out of the way and stop him from bull rushing her off planet.

Invincible speed feats are often a bit vague, so I'm not completely sure how they stack up. But Nik's analysis seems good and he's got more experience with speed algorithms than most of us, so I'm inclined to take his word for it.


Ultimately, it isn't going to matter much, because Wonder Woman doesn't need to be THAT much faster with her sword.


Also, I'm reluctant to use Superman as a benchmark for Wonder Woman just because she's been all over the place post Flash Point. Sometimes she's slugging it out with Clark, and other times she's slugging it out with Aquaman. I'm not really sure what her legit baseline is.

When i think of a Superman and WW fight, my mind goes to their clash in For Tomorrow.

At a point, Superman reacted so fast that WW couldn't respond. But I really don't know how they compare in speed post nu52, Convergence and Flash point.

[Cody]

I'm not going to bother to line by line respond to this because it's honestly not worth it since you've retracted your ridiculous "CBPH at best" assertion.

Yet you haven't dropped your "ridiculous" assertion that he is not a statue to her.

I said, "he's not a statue," that was the sum total of my commitment to his speed versus Wondy's.

And failed to prove this.

While Wondy is faster than him, based on the feats I have listed above, his ridiculously fast flight speed, the fact he and other Viltrumites regularly use their speed in combat, he is definitely not so slow that he would be literally frozen to her. That was my only point on the speed thing.

I already pointed out how this was not the case, and all you have provided makes him, maybe, at best, hypersonic+ in reactions but nowhere near a fraction of light.

Tell you what, indulge me - what's Wondy's best speed feat at the moment? Give me something to scale off of here.

I'm sorry but such a display of arrogance over fictional characters is kinda hilarious to me XD.

Being in the same speed ballpark as the near light Superman and other Kryptonians not enough(which alone puts her wildly above anything seen from Mark)?How about the very feat you brought up for her that dwarfs anything seen from Marks(running from one country to the next in no time, Mark never had anything on that)?

[Cody]

Also, I'm reluctant to use Superman as a benchmark for Wonder Woman just because she's been all over the place post Flash Point. Sometimes she's slugging it out with Clark, and other times she's slugging it out with Aquaman. I'm not really sure what her legit baseline is.

How can you even say this when she is consistently portrayed as nearly as strong as the Kryptonians of the time? Even post crisis Wonder Woman is astronomically stronger than Thragg/EoS Mark that I doubt they could harm her much while it would take little for her to harm them. Their best strength and durability feat is 3 of them charging through a core of a planet, while admitting thet would die horribly if they didn't do it right. Meanwhile it would take more than and outright planet busting attack on the level of the death star just to hurt her considerably. And that is post crisis. For current? I doubt such an attack would even harm her much at all.

[Nik Hasta]

Yet you haven't dropped your "ridiculous" assertion that he is not a statue to her.

And failed to prove this.

Because it's not ridiculous? Your claim that he CBPH was ridiculous because of all the feats that put him laughably beyond that and to make that claim is to either ignore all said feats, or just have forgotten them which you implied was the case here.

Now, I've presented evidence and feats to illustrate why I feel he is "not a statue," at length. I have stated, multiple times, that I don't think he's particularly competitive with her in terms of speed, but he's at least /moving/ which a CBPH obviously would not. If you don't buy my argument then you will need to provide evidence to counter my evidenced claims.

Being in the same speed ballpark as the near light Superman and other Kryptonians not enough(which alone puts her wildly above anything seen from Mark)?How about the very feat you brought up for her that dwarfs anything seen from Marks(running from one country to the next in no time, Mark never had anything on that)?

To be stringent, the feat in question that you're referencing doesn't actually have a specific timeframe for their travels or any indication of the route/places that Wonder Woman is going to. We can see on the first page I've linked above that Superman goes to China and Flash goes to Egypt, Wonder Woman goes to... a park? Streetlamp shape might suggest it's France? Hardly particularly clean or clockable in my book.

Also, when his powers were at his weakest, Mark went from the USA to Antarctica in 37 seconds. He went from Africa to the USA in an unspecified but incredibly short timeframe, he's got the aforementioned feats of travelling between states and countries in seconds, dude can get to the moon from Earth in literally seconds and does so routinely.

He has feats of using his speed to do precision stuff and navigating complex environments [moving his stuff into the dorm, changing his outfit in a literal instant, searching a significant chunk of Las Vegas for a bomb in a second] at said speed. Like, I don't know what else I can give you.

Also;

I'm sorry but such a display of arrogance over fictional characters is kinda hilarious to me XD.

Me asking you for a comparative feat is arrogant? Care to clarify that one?

[Nik Hasta]

Well this fight includes post-crisis feats, which would mean her highest end is probably the shattered god feat, where she deflected the pieces of the shattered god. Deets here and here. Issue numbers are 193 and 194.

The highest end interpretation of this feat is "Wonder Woman deflects trillions of projectiles flying in from every corner of the universe".

On a side note, any Wonder Woman specialists want to tell me if this is street legal?

Because that's like... an utterly insane, high tier Flash level feat if I'm reading this right. I don't know if Wondy has this kind of speed consistently.

[Cody]

Because it's not ridiculous? Your claim that he CBPH was ridiculous because of all the feats that put him laughably beyond that and to make a claim is to ignore all that or just have forgotten that it happened which you implied was the case here

Now, I've presented evidence and feats to illustrate why I feel he is "not a statue," at length. I have stated, multiple times, that I don't think he's particularly competitive with her in terms of speed, but he's at least /moving/ which a CBPH flatly would not. If you don't buy my argument well you need to provide evidence to counter my evidenced claims.

Wasn't also all that consistent to me, sometimes it even seems like it was played for laughs like the couple scans you provided for example, not something like them moving at super speed doing complicated tasks like Kryptonians routinely do or fighting at superspeed like many shounen chars do. It is really spaced out so it confused the heck out of me.

But I understand that sometimes not everything is going to be the most consistent with these types of characters so they don't stomp everything into the ground. I've just never see them fight so fast that they appeared invisible to the human eye, or move so fast they read an entire library's worth of medical knowledge.

To be stringent, the feat in question that you're referencing doesn't actually have a specific timeframe for their travels or any indication of the route/places that Wonder Woman is going to. We can see on the first page I've linked above that Superman goes to China and Flash goes to Egypt, Wonder Woman goes to... a park? Streetlamp shape might suggest it's France? Hardly particularly clean or clockable in my book.

Fair enough, though Mark doesn't really have any running feats to his name.

Also, when his powers were at his weakest, Mark went from the USA to Antarctica in 37 seconds. He went from Africa to the USA in an unspecified but incredibly short timeframe, he's got the aforementioned feats of travelling between states and countries in seconds, dude can get to the moon from Earth in literally seconds and does so routinely.

All of that is flying travel speed though...

He has feats of using his speed to do precision stuff and navigating complex environments [moving his stuff into the dorm, changing his outfit in a literal instant, searching a significant chunk of Las Vegas for a bomb in a second] at said speed. Like, I don't know what else I can give you.

What would you quantify this at though? Some of it is mixed in with his flight speed so it seems really hard to pinpoint how much of it translate to hos reactions to me.

Me asking you for a comparative feat is arrogant? Care to clarify that one?

It's the tone dude:

Tell you what, indulge me

I mean...maybe i am misinterpreting something here but that seemed a liiiiiitle condescending to me.

As far as Wondy is concerned, all i have is scaling her to Kryptonians. And she isn't mich slower than them, while I can't say the same for Mark. With what you provided he seems like he could blitz Thor(if he could harm him before being his with an aoe), but keep up with someone nearly as fast as people near light? Seems like a stretch to me as the gap between is pretty huge.

[Pendaran]

On a side note, any Wonder Woman specialists want to tell me if this is street legal?

Because that's like... an utterly insane, high tier Flash level feat if I'm reading this right. I don't know if Wondy has this kind of speed consistently.

It's not anything viable by board standards.

[Jcogginsa]

On a side note, any Wonder Woman specialists want to tell me if this is street legal?

Because that's like... an utterly insane, high tier Flash level feat if I'm reading this right. I don't know if Wondy has this kind of speed consistently.

Oh yeah, even if you subscribe to Lightspeed Wonder Woman (Which I do, personally) that's an outlier for sure.

Generally, when you ask for a character's best feat, you're going to get an outlier.

[Nik Hasta]

It's not anything viable by board standards.

Duly noted. Felt a bit off given my general understanding of Wonder Woman's presentation.

What would you quantify this at though? Some of it is mixed in with his flight speed so it seems really hard to pinpoint how much of it translate to hos reactions to me.

I'd say, based on his general presentation and the level of feats he has, I'd pitch him somewhere in the high hypersonic level. His top flight speed is definitely faster than he can react, Vitrumites can get fast enough to do interstellar travel and so on.

It's the tone dude:

I mean...maybe i am misinterpreting something here but that seemed a liiiiiitle condescending to me.

I asked you for a feat? You've seen me be condescending to you in the past, I tend to be a lot less subtle. Apologies if it came off that way but I genuinely wasn't trying to be antagonistic there. I wanted you to provide feats.

As far as Wondy is concerned, all i have is scaling her to Kryptonians. And she isn't mich slower than them, while I can't say the same for Mark. With what you provided he seems like he could blitz Thor(if he could harm him before being his with an aoe), but keep up with someone nearly as fast as people near light? Seems like a stretch to me as the gap between is pretty huge.

Again, at no point have I said he could "keep up with," Wondy.

I said he wasn't a statue. If the feats assembled don't convince you then there's not a lot more I can do. We both agree Wondy wins the fight so... yeah?

[Nik Hasta]

Oh yeah, even if you subscribe to Lightspeed Wonder Woman (Which I do, personally) that's an outlier for sure.

Generally, when you ask for a character's best feat, you're going to get an outlier.

Speaking personally, I would go with the best feat that adheres the board standards of evidence because... like why even bring it up otherwise?

[Cody]

Duly noted. Felt a bit off given my general understanding of Wonder Woman's presentation.



I'd say, based on his general presentation and the level of feats he has, I'd pitch him somewhere in the high hypersonic level. His top flight speed is definitely faster than he can react, Vitrumites can get fast enough to do interstellar travel and so on.



I asked you for a feat? You've seen me be condescending to you in the past, I tend to be a lot less subtle. Apologies if it came off that way but I genuinely wasn't trying to be antagonistic there. I wanted you to provide feats.



Again, at no point have I said he could "keep up with," Wondy.

I said he wasn't a statue. If the feats assembled don't convince you then there's not a lot more I can do. We both agree Wondy wins the fight so... yeah?

We're good, I think I read into it too much, sorry. Yeah, this was like the debate we had with the moon busting feat where we are mostly arguing semantics. I sincerely doubt Mark, even when he was as strong as Thragg, could harm post crisis WW much let alone current. Her sword isn't necessary as a punch from her would pretty much end things. Viltrumites seem more or less at the lower end scale as far as class 100 brick are concerned.

[Rightoya]

On a side note, any Wonder Woman specialists want to tell me if this is street legal?

Because that's like... an utterly insane, high tier Flash level feat if I'm reading this right. I don't know if Wondy has this kind of speed consistently.

That is an outlier of the highest order, and not even Flash ever came consistently close to that speed, he just has a few outliers too.

With that being said, Wonder Woman is clearly getting underestimated again, to a degree in comparison to Superman and even more in comparison with other Kryptonans. With pre-flashpoint feats for Wonder Woman has Mark basically no chance to win, and is outclassed in almost any way.

[Captain Morgan]

How can you even say this when she is consistently portrayed as nearly as strong as the Kryptonians of the time? Even post crisis Wonder Woman is astronomically stronger than Thragg/EoS Mark that I doubt they could harm her much while it would take little for her to harm them. Their best strength and durability feat is 3 of them charging through a core of a planet, while admitting thet would die horribly if they didn't do it right. Meanwhile it would take more than and outright planet busting attack on the level of the death star just to hurt her considerably. And that is post crisis. For current? I doubt such an attack would even harm her much at all.

Because she really isn't consistently portrayed as near equal. And in general, Rebirth Superman doesn't seem to have peers among heroes the way post crisis Clark did. He really does blow past the rest of the League not just in feats but in presentation, from what I have seen. Take the planet jump. In that issue he one shots a villain the rest of the League couldn't take down. Admittedly, with a sun dip super Mario run, but still. And in the story where he breaks those star dragging chains he tears his way through armies of robots which were beating every other hero on Earth.

Maybe she's thrown down with him a few times since Rebirth that I haven't seen. If so, feel free to post scans or an issue number.



Also, you don't need the Death Star to HURT post crisis Wonder Woman. Post Crisis Clark broke her wrist by grabbing it hard. His heat vision burned her to the bone. Her best durability feats include taking nukes without damage, which Mark did a couple power ups ago. At this point he's at "stick my arm through their torso" levels compared to his level then.

Edit: I mean, Mark had an extended battle in the outer layer of the sun, and it took the inner layer to kill his opponent. That's not post Crisis Superman durable, but then again neither is Wonder Woman.

[Pendaran]

That is an outlier of the highest order, and not even Flash ever came consistently close to that speed, he just has a few outliers too.

To clarify, what's the argument here in noting this? The pre Flashpoint Flash, particularly the post Crisis, Wally West Flash was an FTL speedster well and far past the likes of Wonder Woman, Superman, what have you, and has any number of performances as far as evidence standards to support that.

[Rightoya]

To be clear, Diana is slower than Superman who is slower than light. I tend to think of her as the lights peed equivalent of a bullet timer. She can react to and deflect light speed projectiles, but she tends to get overwhelmed by kryptonians who are actually pouring on the speed.

That Maxwell Lord fight is a good illustration. Superman fires a machine gun burst style heat vision as he charges her, timed close enough together for multiple bolts to be hanging in the air. She manages to block them but can't get out of the way and stop him from bull rushing her off planet.

Invincible speed feats are often a bit vague, so I'm not completely sure how they stack up. But Nik's analysis seems good and he's got more experience with speed algorithms than most of us, so I'm inclined to take his word for it.


Ultimately, it isn't going to matter much, because Wonder Woman doesn't need to be THAT much faster with her sword.


Also, I'm reluctant to use Superman as a benchmark for Wonder Woman just because she's been all over the place post Flash Point. Sometimes she's slugging it out with Clark, and other times she's slugging it out with Aquaman. I'm not really sure what her legit baseline is.

Wonder Woman definitively don't tends to get overwhelmed by the speed of Kryptonians, Superman is the only typical Kryptonian with any such claims, and even with him is it anything but consistent. Supergirl, Powergirl, Faora or Zod have often statements to be on par, but tend to get overwhelmed if Wonder Woman combines her speed and skill, not the other way around. Here are 2 Supergirl examples, the first is from pre-flahpoint, and the second is post-flashpoint:

A version of Cheetah that Wonder Woman fights later on is too fast to get perceived by Supergirl:



Wonder Woman ties up Supergirl before Supergirl could react:



For what is that supposed to be a good illustration? Wonder Woman clearly perceived Superman even though he was already moving at speed, and performed movements before Superman could even reach her despite being put at disadvantage, and from where do you even get the idea that she tried to get out of the way:



Put a sword into her hand and make her willing to use it in that scene, and Superman would fly into a problem, even more if they start on even conditions.

Mark has definitively significant super speed and can fly quite fast, but is not stacking up very well to a Wonder Woman with pre-flashpoint feats.

That is true, she wouldn't even need it that much.

Aquaman also already slugged it out with Superman too, and had even pre-flashpoint things like the infamous Despero scene, and even Superman himself is often all over the place since flashpoint. With that being said, i think just post-flashpoint Wonder Woman would give Mark a much better chance.