Wonder Woman vs Invincible

[Rightoya]

To clarify, what's the argument here in noting this? The pre Flashpoint Flash, particularly the post Crisis, Wally West Flash was an FTL speedster well and far past the likes of Wonder Woman, Superman, what have you, and has any number of performances as far as evidence standards to support that.

The argument here is that deflecting trillions of objects traveling through the whole universe in moments is far outside of even Flash's paygrade, he has outliers of that kind, but was never consistently even close to be that fast. I know that he is faster than Wonder Woman, Superman, and their peers in speed.

[Pendaran]

For what is that supposed to be a good illustration? Wonder Woman clearly perceived Superman even though he was already moving at speed, and performed movements before Superman could even reach her despite being put at disadvantage, and from where do you even get the idea that she tried to get out of the way:

Amongst other things is Wonder Woman herself noting she could barely get her bracelets up in time. She has no opportunity to get out of the way from that the thing we immediately see after is her getting grabbed. Putting a sword into her hand in a scene where her own words are that she's barely able to defend herself in time, and that the next thing that happens is her getting grabbed, and it wouldn't seem to change much at all.

The argument here is that deflecting trillions of objects traveling through the whole universe in moments is far outside of even Flash's paygrade, he has outliers of that kind, but was never consistently even close to be that fast. I know that he is faster than Wonder Woman, Superman, and their peers in speed.

He doesn't need them for Wonder Woman, Superman and the like to be statues to him, is essentially the note.

[Rightoya]

Amongst other things is Wonder Woman herself noting she could barely get her bracelets up in time. She has no opportunity to get out of the way from that the thing we immediately see after is her getting grabbed. Putting a sword into her hand in a scene where her own words are that she's barely able to defend herself in time, and that the next thing that happens is her getting grabbed, and it wouldn't seem to change much at all.



He doesn't need them for Wonder Woman, Superman and the like to be statues to him, is essentially the note.

If Wonder Woman is able to still react to attacks that clearly reached her before Superman himself even despite him having a head start, seems that not like a good illustration of her getting overwhelmed by Kryptonian speed to me, and we have seen that she could make multiple movements with her arm before Superman was even there, so she should be also able to put her sword in place if wiling to fight for real instead of trying to talk to him.

I don't doubt that they are statues to Flash, but i would note that Flash should be a statue to a theoretical character who is consistently fast enough to deflect trillions of universe traveling objects.

[Pendaran]

If Wonder Woman is able to still react to attacks that clearly reached her before Superman himself even despite him having a head start, seems that not like a good illustration of her getting overwhelmed by Kryptonian speed to me, and we have seen that she could make multiple movements with her arm before Superman was even there, so she should be also able to put her sword in place if wiling to fight for real instead of trying to talk to him.

When she herself is saying she could barely do them, that speaks pretty considerably to how much focus and effort was having to go into making that happen. That's all of deflecting while being actively attacked. The idea that she could, while being attacked and noting she was barely able to defend herself in time, get in a sword strike regardless, doesn't gel with what is on the page.

We get two things. Wonder Woman defending herself and noting she was barely able to do so in time. Wonder Woman gets grabbed. He's attacking her even as he flies in. She's, by her own note, barely able to compensate.

[Jcogginsa]

Speaking personally, I would go with the best feat that adheres the board standards of evidence because... like why even bring it up otherwise?

I figured it was a devil's advocate moment, "what is her theoretical maximum", with the point being to say "Even at her highest possible interpretation, Mark's still not a statue". (A point which would have fallen a bit flat because she's got that one super bonkers feat lying around).

In terms of what she's got that isn't an extreme outlier, she does have several lightspeed-ish feats.

New 52/Rebirth
- She blocked Superman's heat vision, which he's implied moves at lightspeed. She's also blocked heatvision from Zod and Supergirl.
- She blocked Darkseid's Omega Beams in the same storyline that they almost tagged Barry Allen.
-Tied up Superman before he could react, though that was in his God of Strength moment during the Darkseid War so not normal Supes.
-Tagged the Daniel West Reverse Flash
-Shortly after Rebirth, there was a promotional image released showing DC's top ten fastest runners, as determined by the writer of the Flash Comics, and Diana was ranked seventh, ahead of two speedsters (Godspeed and the black Wally West). I know WoG isn't the be all end all on this site, but I do think this is a relevant data point when it comes to how Diana is presented by DC. This list does list Superman as faster though

Post-Crisis
-Tagged Zoom (I think? I've always had trouble Zolomon and Eobard's costumes apart) while blinded. The scene directly states that He's moving at lightspeed
-Was able to tag Gog, who was directly stated to have lightspeed reactions
-Also blocked Omega Beams, this time when she wasn't even in the room prior
-Caught Wally in her lasso when he was stuck moving at Super Speed
-Tied up Amazo before he could finish saying the word "situation"
-Also blocked heat vision from kryptonians a ton of times
-Followed Jesse Quick when she was on the cusp of entering the speedforce, which requires moving faster than light.
-Her mother was able to lasso a photon, and Diana is explicitly faster than her mother
-Statements from Batman that she's got better reaction time than Superman. It the "Like comparing Usain Bolt to Bruce Lee" moment
-Statements that she's almost as fast as the Flash

In general, I'd argue that by presentation she's in the same ballpark as Superman. Yes there are occasions where Superman outspeeds her, but you'd have to count up how many times that happens and compare them to the times when she keeps up with him in order to determine which one is the more consistent scenario.

(And as far as reacting to Flash and Reverse Flash go, I don't think those are tremendous outliers because while Barry and Wally can make Clark into a statue, I doubt that's there normal cruising speed. If they moved at that speed all of the time, Clark would have figured out that they're holding back massively in their races.)

[Pendaran]

-Followed Jesse Quick when she was on the cusp of entering the speedforce, which requires moving faster than light.

Entering the speed force is done at lightspeed, any number of times.

-Her mother was able to lasso a photon, and Diana is explicitly faster than her mother
-Statements from Batman that she's got better reaction time than Superman. It the "Like comparing Usain Bolt to Bruce Lee" moment
-Statements that she's almost as fast as the Flash

These are completely meaningless. One person doesn't get another feats, and statements are without value in these context especially, especially "she's almost as fast as the Flash" a guy with just piles of better speed performances.

In general, I'd argue that by presentation

Not when that presentation involves utterly ignoring another character's comparative performances.

(And as far as reacting to Flash and Reverse Flash go, I don't think those are tremendous outliers because while Barry and Wally can make Clark into a statue, I doubt that's there normal cruising speed. If they moved at that speed all of the time, Clark would have figured out that they're holding back massively in their races.)

Then your actual argument is that just because these characters have shown themselves to be faster on numerous occasions both directly and by comparative performances, doesn't mean it's a low showing when they're conveniently written as being much slower.

That's not how anything works here. When we can see that the Flash has so much better speed performances than Superman, when he's instead being written as being around Superman's speed, that doesn't make it anything more than a low showing for the Flash.

[Jcogginsa]

Not when that presentation involves utterly ignoring another character's comparative performances.

And what is your evidence that Superman blitzing Diana is the norm as opposed to a low showing?

Then your actual argument is that just because these characters have shown themselves to be faster on numerous occasions both directly and by comparative performances, doesn't mean it's a low showing when they're conveniently written as being much slower.

That's not how anything works here. When we can see that the Flash has so much better speed performances than Superman, when he's instead being written as being around Superman's speed, that doesn't make it anything more than a low showing for the Flash.

Okay, you've completely misunderstood what I said, so let me correct you.

What I was saying was "Flash can clearly move way faster than Superman. However, just because Flash can move faster than Superman does not mean that he is always moving way faster than Superman. Because if Flash is always moving way faster than Superman, then Superman would have noticed that he is way slower than the Flash. Therefore, when a character tags the Flash, that does not automatically mean that they are reacting to speeds that make Superman look like a statue, because that is not the speed that Flash uses in normal occasions."

[Rightoya]

When she herself is saying she could barely do them, that speaks pretty considerably to how much focus and effort was having to go into making that happen. That's all of deflecting while being actively attacked. The idea that she could, while being attacked and noting she was barely able to defend herself in time, get in a sword strike regardless, doesn't gel with what is on the page.

We get two things. Wonder Woman defending herself and noting she was barely able to do so in time. Wonder Woman gets grabbed. He's attacking her even as he flies in. She's, by her own note, barely able to compensate.

She was clearly referring to the heat vision beams and not to him as she talked about barely getting her bracelets up in time, she just also mentioned that he was already at speed, putting her at a disadvantage. Now put a sword into her left hand, she could still deflect with her right arm and should be able to put the sword into place with her left just fine, i don't think her right arm is much faster than her left arm. Just giving her a sword would of course not change much, because she was clearly not willing to fight at that point, but i was just talking about a combination of sword and willingness to fight.

Yeah against the heat vision beams that had already reached her. What do you even expect her to do against getting grabbed, specifically while trying to talk him down? Yeah ok, but how should the heat vision beams she deflected prevent her from moving a sword with her other arm?

[Captain Morgan]

You're right that I shouldn't lump all Kryptonians in with each other. "She didn't even try to get out of the way" is a weird take though, when w the result is her being choked and dragged to the sun. She did not want either of those things and Superman had to cross more distance to reach her than it would take to move her body out of the way.

Also, let me just point out no one has argued Mark wins. But we are dealing with two characters whose best feats largely come from scaling against other characters, which always makes things murky. We all agree Diana is faster and more skilled, and any sort of weapon is basically an auto win. The only category Mark might be even with is strength and durability, and even then not if you count stuff like performing well against Nu52 Kryptonians.

I'm just saying that we shouldn't use Rebirth Superman as a measuring stick for her unless she's consistently hung with him like previous versions, and that it takes less than a direct hit from the Death Star to hurt her.

[Pendaran]

She was clearly referring to the heat vision beams and not to him as she talked about barely getting her bracelets up in time, she just also mentioned that he was already at speed, putting her at a disadvantage. Now put a sword into her left hand, she could still deflect with her right arm and should be able to put the sword into place with her left just fine, i don't think her right arm is much faster than her left arm. Just giving her a sword would of course not change much, because she was clearly not willing to fight at that point, but i was just talking about a combination of sword and willingness to fight.

Yeah against the heat vision beams that had already reached her. What do you even expect her to do against getting grabbed, specifically while trying to talk him down? Yeah ok, but how should the heat vision beams she deflected prevent her from moving a sword with her other arm?

You're now attempting to compartmentalize every moment of this scene as occurring in some sort of bizarre vaccum.

When she herself says she can barely defend herself and the next thing that happens is her getting grabbed, I don't expect her to have been able to do much of anything, and indeed, the scene portrays this. You also somehow feel shouting out "Kal! No!" is some indepth effort to talk him down, which again doesn't make sense with what we see on the page.

Now put a sword into her left hand, she could still deflect with her right arm and should be able to put the sword into place with her left just fine,

Why, when she said she could barely defend herself in time?

because she was clearly not willing to fight at that point, but i was just talking about a combination of sword and willingness to fight.

You are talking about her clearly being willing to do anything in the face of her own narration about being barely able to defend herself in time.

She had time, in the face of being attacked, to by her own notation barely defend herself from getting hit. Then she got grabbed. That's about it.

[Pendaran]

And what is your evidence that Superman blitzing Diana is the norm as opposed to a low showing?

Okay, you've completely misunderstood what I said, so let me correct you.

What I was saying was "Flash can clearly move way faster than Superman. However, just because Flash can move faster than Superman does not mean that he is always moving way faster than Superman. Because if Flash is always moving way faster than Superman, then Superman would have noticed that he is way slower than the Flash. Therefore, when a character tags the Flash, that does not automatically mean that they are reacting to speeds that make Superman look like a statue, because that is not the speed that Flash uses in normal occasions."

Let me clarify for you then, saying "well clearly Flash was just going conveniently slow enough to be tagged" makes those showings then not worth anything, for showing anything of substance.

edit: As for the other, that's not a blitz, that's just being faster. She was able to at least somewhat defend herself, even if, by her notation, barely in time. A blitz would mean no response at all.

[Rightoya]

You're right that I shouldn't lump all Kryptonians in with each other. "She didn't even try to get out of the way" is a weird take though, when w the result is her being choked and dragged to the sun. She did not want either of those things and Superman had to cross more distance to reach her than it would take to move her body out of the way.

Also, let me just point out no one has argued Mark wins. But we are dealing with two characters whose best feats largely come from scaling against other characters, which always makes things murky. We all agree Diana is faster and more skilled, and any sort of weapon is basically an auto win. The only category Mark might be even with is strength and durability, and even then not if you count stuff like performing well against Nu52 Kryptonians.

I'm just saying that we shouldn't use Rebirth Superman as a measuring stick for her unless she's consistently hung with him like previous versions, and that it takes less than a direct hit from the Death Star to hurt her.

Yeah Kryptonians are often not as similar as one might suspect.
That would assume that Superman either can't adjust his direction, or that you expect Wonder Woman to make a wide dodge with her whole body, right after deflecting the heat vision beams from an akward standing position while he was already accelerating and she not. At that point would she need to be faster, and outclass his acceleration speed by far.

I wouldn't even give Mark strength or durability, with the exception of specific durability against weapons of the piercing kind.

I don't think we should use anyone in rebirth as measuring stick for anyone in rebirth, almost all of them are all over the place. There is a big difference between hurting, and hurting enough.

[Pendaran]

That would assume that Superman either can't adjust his direction, or that you expect Wonder Woman to make a wide dodge with her whole body, right after deflecting the heat vision beams from an akward standing position while he was already accelerating and she not. At that point would she need to be faster, and outclass his acceleration speed by far.

Or we could just go with what happened, which is that she said she was barely able to do the defense of herself, and quite shortly after got grabbed, which is well in line with a character being faster than she is.

[Rightoya]

You're now attempting to compartmentalize every moment of this scene as occurring in some sort of bizarre vaccum.

When she herself says she can barely defend herself and the next thing that happens is her getting grabbed, I don't expect her to have been able to do much of anything, and indeed, the scene portrays this. You also somehow feel shouting out "Kal! No!" is some indepth effort to talk him down, which again doesn't make sense with what we see on the page.



Why, when she said she could barely defend herself in time?



You are talking about her clearly being willing to do anything in the face of her own narration about being barely able to defend herself in time.

She had time, in the face of being attacked, to by her own notation barely defend herself from getting hit. Then she got grabbed. That's about it.

Do i? I think i just looked at what happened in that scene, and i saw that Wonder Woman was perceiving Superman, reacting even if just barely to something faster than Superman himself, and also performing movements, which speaks strongly against what i would call a speed blitz.

Why are you connecting these like that, Superman himself was clearly slower than the heat vision beams, and if Wonder Woman had not even any options against getting grabbed is that no illustration of overwhelming speed. I have never talked about any in depth efforts to talk him down, just about her doing it in general, she then realized that he wasn't hearing her and stopped.

Because there is absolute no contradiction between barely deflecting beams with her right arm, and hitting a much bigger and also slower target with a sword in her left hand.

When was Wonder Woman clearly willing to do anything in her own narration at that point?

Yeah, and that would not even without the context convince me of overwhelming Kryptonian speed, and even less with the context.

[Cody]

Because she really isn't consistently portrayed as near equal. And in general, Rebirth Superman doesn't seem to have peers among heroes the way post crisis Clark did. He really does blow past the rest of the League not just in feats but in presentation, from what I have seen. Take the planet jump. In that issue he one shots a villain the rest of the League couldn't take down. Admittedly, with a sun dip super Mario run, but still. And in the story where he breaks those star dragging chains he tears his way through armies of robots which were beating every other hero on Earth.

Maybe she's thrown down with him a few times since Rebirth that I haven't seen. If so, feel free to post scans or an issue number.



Also, you don't need the Death Star to HURT post crisis Wonder Woman. Post Crisis Clark broke her wrist by grabbing it hard. His heat vision burned her to the bone. Her best durability feats include taking nukes without damage, which Mark did a couple power ups ago. At this point he's at "stick my arm through their torso" levels compared to his level then.

Edit: I mean, Mark had an extended battle in the outer layer of the sun, and it took the inner layer to kill his opponent. That's not post Crisis Superman durable, but then again neither is Wonder Woman.

Thing is, that still puts her at a level that can throw down with NU52 Kryptonians who, while weaker than Rebirth Kryptonians, are vastly stronger than post crisis Superman. I am not seeing how Mark could harm someone who can trade blows with that, let alone take a punch.