That again means nothing more than saying "anytime I need it to make someone look good, the Flash is going exactly the speed I need him to, and is not in fact being underwritten". The problem with that in logic is that if you agree that the Flash is faster than Superman, considerably, then whenever he isn't, he is by definition being underwritten. That's just logic.
We don't use "well the Flash is vastly underperforming" as some proof of how fast another character must be.
Last edited by Pendaran; 12-06-2020 at 03:30 PM.
Except that's not what the page shows, or Diana states. There's no "I'm barely defending myself from Superman's heat vision, which is clearly also some nebulous degree faster than he is", there's Superman being fast enough to use his heat vision like a barrage as he comes in, which Diana notes she can barely defend herself against in time, and then, as though dealing with a guy she's just noted is fast enough to give her problems like that, she gets grabbed without really being able to do much about it.
No, a character not using max effort for every single situation is not them being underwritten.
Superman statuing speed is something that the comics frame as a "Special occasion, not every occasion" thing, whereas in normal circumstances, he moves at speeds in Superman's ballpark. That is actual logic, because it looks at the facts in universe and draws a conclusion based on those.
It was Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) and it is not remotely legitimate given his presentation as well over even post Crisis Wally West who waaayyyy beyond light speed in terms of reactions.
An odd interpretation of what went down in that book given Diana's own statements....
flashdiana.jpg
"Caught" seems to imply she is actually in the same ball park as Wally West. Not remotely true. In fact, the only way she tagged Wally was by anticipating his next move and timing it just right...
flashdiana2.jpg
...Mean nothing.
Clark is in fact a statue to Wally West. No other way to see it. Wally is orders of magnitude faster than Clark. I've mentioned this before; I'll mention it again: here, the gauge is "high feats consistent with the character's presentation".
As I recall, most of those races between Clark and the Flash took place pre Crisis. And there was Barry's statement to Clark, that "those were for charity".
Clark cannot compare to Wally West much less Hunter Zolomon.
Last edited by Cronus; 12-06-2020 at 03:53 PM.
"Sir, does this mean that Ann Margret's not coming?"
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"One of the maddening but beautiful things about comics is that you have to give characters a sense of change without changing them so much that they violate the essence of who they are." ~ Ann Nocenti, Chris Claremont's X-Men.
Considering how much faster the Flash is than Superman, the idea that he'd have to be using max effort to outspeed him is certainly interesting.
And I'm really at this point going to just refer you to the FAQ for actual standards for evidence here that you seem to feel Superman gets a pass for.
By "the actual facts in universe" otherwise, Deathstroke for instance can outdraw Superman, and has. That happened in comics. In fact, none of these people must really be all that fast. People with little to no superspeed mess around with and hit them all the time, over and over and over again. Speed must in fact be completely worthless, most of the time, going by your standards of "logic".
The standard of this board is not "so long as it happened it counts", it's not "if it happened we have to try to make it make sense", the entire idea here is that showings can be weighed for validity between characters and entirely discounted if they do things like, say, ignore the Flash having vastly better speed performances than Superman.
There is no in universe logic for why those are ignored beyond "The writer wanted to ignore them". But! The writer isn't here, and we don't have to abide by that standard. We instead indeed actually try and act like these characters have these powers and can use them to the degree they have shown validity with using them.
Yes, he is capable of moving that fast. In the actual scene, he was only moving at lightspeed
What issue is that? Because it doesn't look like the same scans that I saw, which were from JLA #77An odd interpretation of what went down in that book given Diana's own statements....
flashdiana.jpg
in fact, the only way she tagged Wally was by anticipating his next move and timing it just right...
flashdiana2.jpg
It's supporting evidence. On it's own, it means nothing. But when placed next to other instances of Diana moving at similar speeds, it supports the argument that Diana is presented as being in that ballpark of speed.Mean nothing.
Please read what I am actually saying, instead of of just skimming my words and assuming that you know.Clark is in fact a statue to Wally West. No other way to see it. Wally is orders of magnitude faster than Clark.
As I recall, most of those races between Clark and the Flash took place pre Crisis. And there was Barry's statement to Clark, that "those were for charity".
Clark cannot compare to Wally West much less Hunter Zolomon.
Wally and Barry are both capable of moving faster than Superman, substantially so. I am not disputing that.
What I am saying is that those levels of speed are not their default travel speeds. And My reasoning for that goes back to the same scene that you are referencing: Clark thinks that the speeds Barry pulled off in their races are close to his actual top speed. If Barry was always using speeds that turned Clark into a statue, Clark would have noticed before then.
Because of this, if you see a scene where the Flash is just generically running, with no frame of reference to use in order to determine what speed he is going at, then you should not assume that he is moving at Clark-Statue Speed.
It's an expression, don't read too much into it. It's quick that saying "More effort than he usually does"
Yes, and my logic is entirely sensical.
The standard of this board is not "so long as it happened it counts", it's not "if it happened we have to try to make it make sense", the entire idea here is that showings can be weighed for validity between characters and entirely discounted if they do things like, say, ignore the Flash having vastly better speed performances than Superman.
These are the facts in need of reconciliation
1. Barry is fast enough to make Clark a Statue
2. Clark thinks he can keep up with Barry.
Thus the logical conclusion
3. While Barry is capable of moving faster than Superman by a significant degree, he does not habitually do so.
Your logic requires making up extra details for comics that do not exist in them, while also not acknowledging that your logic also requires explaining all the times Superman gets constantly hit by people so much slower than him. After all now, according to you, no one ever really underperforms.
By your standards, we should stop debating these characters like any of them have superspeed at all.
Which is Barry being underwritten so that there can be a plot, generally. We have a term for that here as far as showings we don't consider valid. I again recommend you read the standards for evidence weighing on this board.3. While Barry is capable of moving faster than Superman by a significant degree, he does not habitually do so.
Thread is right there:
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ules-and-FAQs)
What did I make up? Be specific.
I never said anything of the sort, do not twist my words. My statements apply to Barry, because there is evidence to believe such about Barry in certain circumstances.while also not acknowledging that your logic also requires explaining all the times Superman gets constantly hit by people so much slower than him. After all now, according to you, no one ever really underperforms.
No, it isn't. It's because Barry in the comics is an actual character instead of being under rumbles bloodlust.Which is Barry being underwritten so that there can be a plot, generally. We have a term for that here as far as showings we don't consider valid. I again recommend you read the standards for evidence weighing on this board.
PIS/CIS are explicitly things, shown multiple times and explained to you, specifically, multiple times. So this really isn't your first rodeo as far as getting called out for this bad-faith, board rules ignoring crap.
Why are you back at it?
Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran
Arx Inosaan
You're kind of making my point for me here...is light speed the fastest Zolomon can move?
Attachment 102919
In fact, as Zolomon often does, he was toying with Diana in that book.
They're from JLA Classified 17. Puts JLA 77 into context and is better representative of the difference between Diana and Wally West.
Except there are too many other instances of Diana struggling to keep up with Clark, who is near light, much less being able to consistently keep up with someone in Flash's league.
Yeah, you really are though, or you would not have even mentioned Wonder Woman tagging Zolomon and Wally West, as if that is somehow magically more representative of Diana's actual reaction speed.
But they are here. That is my point. Like I said here today and I said in our previous discussion, "high feats consistent with the character's presentation" is what we go by. Hunter Zolomon only moving at light speed doesn't fly around here because most here know he is faaaarrrr faster than that, and Wally isn't too far behind Zoom.
Amazing that you would draw that conclusion when Clark was literally blown away by Barry Allan in that book. You seem really resistant to how feats are evaluated here on these forums. I suggest reading the FAQ's and mod rulings, as I suggested you do in the discussion about WBH.
Last edited by Cronus; 12-06-2020 at 04:40 PM.
"Sir, does this mean that Ann Margret's not coming?"
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"One of the maddening but beautiful things about comics is that you have to give characters a sense of change without changing them so much that they violate the essence of who they are." ~ Ann Nocenti, Chris Claremont's X-Men.
The speeds Barry "must" be moving at. The reasons noted in why.What did I make up? Be specific.
That you do not like it when I apply the logical ramifications of your words across all characters evenly is your own problem.I never said anything of the sort, do not twist my words. My statements apply to Barry, because there is evidence to believe such about Barry in certain circumstances.
Why is it that this only applies to Barry and Superman, and not, say, Superman and all the people with little to no speed to speak of who constantly hit and react to him? Why the double standard? Why by your logic isn't it that Superman must so "habitually" not use his speed that we shouldn't even really consider it? Look how many times that happens in comics, the place where by your logic, everything counts and we should just make up some reason for why it all counts.
It's as though this is why we don't bother with your type of "logic".
You certainly seem to dislike the evidence standards of a moderated debate board you post on a bunch.No, it isn't. It's because Barry in the comics is an actual character instead of being under rumbles bloodlust.