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  1. #1351
    Dark Angel of Feminism Shadowcat's Avatar
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    My review was just fast track posted. It’s a stone groove winner. You’ll all enjoy it.

  2. #1352
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Mittens View Post
    The big difference is that with the Superfamily they rarely gather because the writer simply choose not to do it. The Wonder family rarely gather because their all considered part of different editorial lines from one another thus it requires
    *a writer having an idea that involves using the other members of the Wonder family
    *then having to give a detailed accounting of what they want to use that character for
    *sending that detailed accounting to their editor to get their approval
    *Have that editor contact the editors in charge of the line editors which both Teen Titans and Young Justice fall under
    *Have that then lead to the specific book editors for Teen Titans and Young Justice look over this usage and decide whether it is okay
    *Finally have it approved who knows how many months later and hope that the writer who started all of this is still on the book and DC hasn't had a required crossover that makes the plan impossible or that an editor doesn't change their minds while the upcoming story is being finalized.

    The pecking order for what editors can pull rank on these kind of requests and who answers to what has never really been clear. Like how years ago Black Canary couldn't be included in Birds of Prey because editorial decided she was a Green Arrow character instead and wasn't allowed to be in anything aside from Green Arrow.
    Donna being tied to Titans and Cassie to Young Justice is rather annoying when neither characters exactly considered central to either book.
    I just can't agree more, with everything you've said, here.

    It's bad enough that DC editors insist that new WW writers junk everything the previous writer added to the comic - namely, supporting characters. [There's been no editorial statement or explanation, on/for that, but, several writers - John Byrne, Brian Azzarello, whoever followed the Finches - have shared, in interviews, that this is the practice, with whoever is editing WW.] To make things worse, those same new writers have to wait in line, behind whoever's using Donna, Artemis or Cassie in other comics?! Basically, there is no Wonder Family
    WONDER WOMAN'S BLOODY AMAZONS--CAN'T LIVE WITH 'EM...on WONDABUNGA!!! Look alive, Kangaliers!

  3. #1353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I just can't agree more, with everything you've said, here.

    It's bad enough that DC editors insist that new WW writers junk everything the previous writer added to the comic - namely, supporting characters. [There's been no editorial statement or explanation, on/for that, but, several writers - John Byrne, Brian Azzarello, whoever followed the Finches - have shared, in interviews, that this is the practice, with whoever is editing WW.] To make things worse, those same new writers have to wait in line, behind whoever's using Donna, Artemis or Cassie in other comics?! Basically, there is no Wonder Family
    To be fair, this isn't only on the editors. In itself, many writers like to do this.

    I remember Gail Simone has mentioned that many writers in comics often like to write their own stories and characters, so they've rather ignore the additions of previous writers.

    That's the reason why characters can't mantain a supporting cast (unless this was a iconic supporting characters).

  4. #1354
    Incredible Member Fuzzy Mittens's Avatar
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    The woes of how DCs editorial makeup works and chunks of Wonder Womans supporting cast being claimed by other titles aside, I really enjoyed this first arc of this run. A really strong showing honestly.

  5. #1355
    Astonishing Member OBrianTallent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    To be fair, this isn't only on the editors. In itself, many writers like to do this.

    I remember Gail Simone has mentioned that many writers in comics often like to write their own stories and characters, so they've rather ignore the additions of previous writers.

    That's the reason why characters can't mantain a supporting cast (unless this was a iconic supporting characters).
    Gail was also one of the major writers commenting on Editorial telling her she could not carry over. From what I recall she really wanted to use Rucka's original run view of the Olympian gods and was told no among other characters. Yes, writers often want to "make their mark" but there's also a precedence with WW editors (too much so) to deny incoming writers the opportunity to use previous run's characters.
    Having Donna and Cassie (and who knows, maybe even Hippolyta now) belonging to other offices is just ridiculous. Especially when use is so limited.

  6. #1356
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBrianTallent View Post
    Gail was also one of the major writers commenting on Editorial telling her she could not carry over. From what I recall she really wanted to use Rucka's original run view of the Olympian gods and was told no among other characters. Yes, writers often want to "make their mark" but there's also a precedence with WW editors (too much so) to deny incoming writers the opportunity to use previous run's characters.
    Having Donna and Cassie (and who knows, maybe even Hippolyta now) belonging to other offices is just ridiculous. Especially when use is so limited.
    But why? What is the purpose of that?

  7. #1357
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBrianTallent View Post
    Gail was also one of the major writers commenting on Editorial telling her she could not carry over. From what I recall she really wanted to use Rucka's original run view of the Olympian gods and was told no among other characters. Yes, writers often want to "make their mark" but there's also a precedence with WW editors (too much so) to deny incoming writers the opportunity to use previous run's characters.
    Having Donna and Cassie (and who knows, maybe even Hippolyta now) belonging to other offices is just ridiculous. Especially when use is so limited.
    I could have sworn I've seen interviews or comments from her somewhere saying she wanted to use Veronica Cale, wasn't allowed to have Circe being entirely responsible for Amazons Attack, and had plans for Dr. Poison and Dr. Cyber that never happened.

    Ideally Rucka would have gotten to finish his run the way he wanted and Simone would have taken over right after. We were really robbed of two back to back great runs.

  8. #1358
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I could have sworn I've seen interviews or comments from her somewhere saying she wanted to use Veronica Cale, wasn't allowed to have Circe being entirely responsible for Amazons Attack, and had plans for Dr. Poison and Dr. Cyber that never happened.

    Ideally Rucka would have gotten to finish his run the way he wanted and Simone would have taken over right after. We were really robbed of two back to back great runs.
    Cale seems like a very Simone-esk character, so I wouldn't be surprised if she wanted to use her. Plus there was that whole plot-point between Cale and Circe that evaporated after Rucka left, would have been nice if someone picked that up.
    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  9. #1359
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Cale seems like a very Simone-esk character, so I wouldn't be surprised if she wanted to use her. Plus there was that whole plot-point between Cale and Circe that evaporated after Rucka left, would have been nice if someone picked that up.
    She did want to use Cale but editorial didn't let her as I believe she was being used in something else at the time.

  10. #1360
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    To be fair, this isn't only on the editors. In itself, many writers like to do this.

    I remember Gail Simone has mentioned that many writers in comics often like to write their own stories and characters, so they've rather ignore the additions of previous writers.

    That's the reason why characters can't mantain a supporting cast (unless this was a iconic supporting characters).
    Well...what that sounds like, to me, is some understanding, between DC editors and executives, was reached about how the Wonder Woman comic would be edited, going forward. From where or when, the understanding was reached, ..don't know, ..but, I'm going to guess it was sometime, after 1992, when our beloved Mr. George Perez left the title.

    Did some very overworked editors of the Bat and Super comics decide Wonder Woman isn't selling enough comics to warrant the kind of involved continuity-editing that the other Trinity hero comics get - so, Wonder Woman, Hippolyta and the Amazons would be the whole comic? Did they agree, with some exec approval (of course), ..that the Amazons are just a bunch of supermodels, running around in napkins, and it shouldn't really matter which get used in a comic or what happens to them, ..and that Celeb Writers A-Z should be allowed to make up everything else, ..from job to job?

    Since Wonder Woman, Hippolyta and the Amazons are really the only elements, created by Dr. Marston and unique to Diana's origin - probably the only characters, that DC Comics is legally required to publish, to keep the copyright ownership (and subsequent profit) from legally reverting back to Marston's family and estate - did these same overworked editors decide, they don't need writers creating continuity for Etta, Donna Troy, Artemis and the super-villains, ..which just makes for them? Was a solution found, just making every new writer make up a new situation, around Wonder Woman, Hippolyta and the Amazons?

    That's what it sounds like ..to me. Don't know any of that, for sure. I'm just asking.

    Furthermore, I don't think random writers making up comics, as important and well-known, as Wonder Woman, into any weird shape, they like, ..from job to job, ..is such a good thing - don't care how poorly the comic's selling. Being a DC Comics fan, I have certain expectations for what I'm going to find in a DC-brand comic, and I've been buying them, long enough, to deserve to see some of those expectations, consistently met ..and respected. I expect Wonder Woman, a culturally relevant comic book - a DC Comic - which has been around, since World War II, to have a colorful, entertaining supporting cast and rogues gallery, AND great stories, much like the ones, I find in the Batman and Superman comics. Even further, ..I don't find these expectations to be, at all, silly or unreasonable, being mine or anyone else.

    I'm not saying that's how it's got to be...not carving that on a mountain, in lightning. Just saying it's what I look for, in this particular comic! Some of my fellow Kangaliers might jump for joy, having no familiar characters, places or thingamabobs to emotionally attach to, every few months - every five or six months, a whole new Wonderverse, you'll never see again - and if they do, God love them...

    But, I hate it.

    My God, ..am I lauding Robert 'Wonder Woman Family' Kanigher, one of the best and worst things to ever happen to this comic? Yes, that is actually happening! Bob Kanigher is my hero, and gods bless Mister Genie, ..whom I hope is revealed to be Siegfried, next week.

    I want a Wonder Family, and I think Cloonrad is giving us one, in Wondy Woman, Siggy ..and that sodding, talkin' Rat. I love them...love'm! I want the action figures, and the plastic, Ben Cooper Halloween costumes! Cloonrad's Wonders are embryonic classics, and it's going to be a very sad day, when some [DC editor] tells us, we can't play with them, anymore.

    Very sad day...
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 09-14-2021 at 10:13 PM. Reason: style, content, factuality and clarity
    WONDER WOMAN'S BLOODY AMAZONS--CAN'T LIVE WITH 'EM...on WONDABUNGA!!! Look alive, Kangaliers!

  11. #1361
    Mighty Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Well, what that sounds like, to me, is some understanding, between DC editors and executives, was reached about how the WW comic would be edited, going forward.

    Did some very overworked editors of the Bat and Super comics decide Wonder Woman isn't selling enough comics to warrant the kind of involved continuity-editing that the other Trinity hero comics get - so, Wonder Woman, Hippolyta and the Amazons would be the whole comic? Did they agree, with some exec approval (of course), ..that the Amazons are just a bunch of supermodels, running around in napkins, and it shouldn't really matter which get used in a comic or what happens to them, ..and that Celeb Writers A-Z should be allowed to make up everything else, ..from job to job? Since Wonder Woman, Hippolyta and the Amazons are really the only elements, created by Dr. Marston and unique to Diana's origin - probably the only characters, that DC Comics is legally required to publish, to keep the copyright ownership (and subsequent profit) from legally reverting back to Marston's family and estate - did these same overworked editors decide, they don't need writers creating continuity for Etta, Donna Troy, Artemis and the super-villains, ..which just makes for them? Was a solution found, just making every new writer make up a new situation, around Wonder Woman, Hippolyta and the Amazons?

    That's what it sounds like ..to me. Don't know any of that, for sure. I'm just asking.

    Furthermore, I don't think random writers making up comics, as important and well-known, as Wonder Woman, into any weird shape, they like, ..from job to job, ..is such a good thing - don't care how poorly the comic's selling. Being a DC Comics fan, I have certain expectations for what I'm going to find in a DC-brand comic, and I've been buying them, long enough, to deserve to see some of those expectations, consistently met ..and respected. I expect Wonder Woman, a culturally relevant comic book - a DC Comic - which has been around, since World War II, to have a colorful, entertaining supporting cast and rogues gallery, AND great stories, much like the ones, I find in the Batman and Superman comics. Even further, ..I don't find these expectations to be, at all, silly or unreasonable, being mine or anyone else.

    I'm not saying that's how it's got to be...not carving that on a mountain, in lightning. Just saying it's what I look for, in this particular comic! Some of my fellow Kangaliers might jump for joy, having no familiar characters, places or thingamabobs to emotionally attach to, every month - every month, a whole new Wonderverse, you'll never see again - and if they do, God love them...

    But, I hate it.

    My God, ..am I lauding Robert 'Wonder Woman Family' Kanigher, one of the best and worst things to ever happen to this comic? Yes, that is actually happening! Bob Kanigher is my hero, and gods bless Mister Genie, ..whom I hope is revealed to be Siegfried, next week.

    I want a Wonder Family, and I think Cloonrad is giving us one, in Wondy Woman, Siggy ..and that sodding, talkin' Rat. I love them...love'm! I want the action figures, and the plastic, Ben Cooper Halloween costumes! Cloonrad's Wonders are embryonic classics, and it's going to be a very sad day, when some [DC editor] tells us, we can't play with them, anymore.

    Very sad day...
    You said a mouthful, pal!

    (And from what I understand, nowadays Hippolyta is another book’s property, too.)
    I only support clay origins.

  12. #1362
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBrianTallent View Post
    Gail was also one of the major writers commenting on Editorial telling her she could not carry over. From what I recall she really wanted to use Rucka's original run view of the Olympian gods and was told no among other characters. Yes, writers often want to "make their mark" but there's also a precedence with WW editors (too much so) to deny incoming writers the opportunity to use previous run's characters.
    Having Donna and Cassie (and who knows, maybe even Hippolyta now) belonging to other offices is just ridiculous. Especially when use is so limited.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I could have sworn I've seen interviews or comments from her somewhere saying she wanted to use Veronica Cale, wasn't allowed to have Circe being entirely responsible for Amazons Attack, and had plans for Dr. Poison and Dr. Cyber that never happened.

    Ideally Rucka would have gotten to finish his run the way he wanted and Simone would have taken over right after. We were really robbed of two back to back great runs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    She did want to use Cale but editorial didn't let her as I believe she was being used in something else at the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Cale seems like a very Simone-esk character, so I wouldn't be surprised if she wanted to use her. Plus there was that whole plot-point between Cale and Circe that evaporated after Rucka left, would have been nice if someone picked that up.
    This all sounds very familiar, however I could swear that Gail said while she wanted to use Rucka's creations (both Cale AND the Olympians), it was Greg himself that asked her not to because he had plans to continue his truncated story at some point! Lol. Out of respect for a fellow writer, she did not use his characters and we got talking apes instead...

    Fast forward, and while thankfully Rucka was given his second shot at the title, the landscape had changed drastically and what we got was not what he would have originally done had he not been interrupted back in 2006.
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  13. #1363
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJNeal View Post
    This all sounds very familiar, however I could swear that Gail said while she wanted to use Rucka's creations (both Cale AND the Olympians), it was Greg himself that asked her not to because he had plans to continue his truncated story at some point! Lol. Out of respect for a fellow writer, she did not use his characters and we got talking apes instead...

    Fast forward, and while thankfully Rucka was given his second shot at the title, the landscape had changed drastically and what we got was not what he would have originally done had he not been interrupted back in 2006.
    Rucka leaving in 2006:



    Rucka coming back in 2016:

    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  14. #1364
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largo161 View Post
    You said a mouthful, pal!

    (And from what I understand, nowadays Hippolyta is another book’s property, too.)
    Thanks, compadre.

    I'm just tired of looking at the Super and Bat comics and wondering why the WW comic can't have, what they have. Further, I'm tired of the truly imaginative excuses, why we fans shouldn't want these things ..or why they (female Doctor Doom, Wonder family, opposite sex antihero, etc) wouldn't work, in Wonder Woman...

    Why does Wonder Woman need any female friends? Why can't she be narratively homeless? Why this comic? Tired of the excuses.

    The Cloonrad run is turning out to be one of the most imaginative runs, since Mike Sekowsky's. Drop Etta (any Etta), Mala, Col. Steve, Queen Desira and I Ching in the mix, ..you've got a second Golden Age, for this comic - we're so close! We're always so close...

    But, you all know what's coming, when Cloonrad leaves.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 09-14-2021 at 04:28 PM. Reason: Clarity
    WONDER WOMAN'S BLOODY AMAZONS--CAN'T LIVE WITH 'EM...on WONDABUNGA!!! Look alive, Kangaliers!

  15. #1365
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJNeal View Post
    This all sounds very familiar, however I could swear that Gail said while she wanted to use Rucka's creations (both Cale AND the Olympians), it was Greg himself that asked her not to because he had plans to continue his truncated story at some point! Lol. Out of respect for a fellow writer, she did not use his characters and we got talking apes instead...

    Fast forward, and while thankfully Rucka was given his second shot at the title, the landscape had changed drastically and what we got was not what he would have originally done had he not been interrupted back in 2006.
    Yeah, I heard Rucka was involved in that but never sure on the particulars but that’d make sense. Sounds like Simone really inherited a disaster.

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