New WW Creative Team: Becky Cloonan, Michael Conrad and Travis Moore

[WonderLight789]

I often think about why "daughter of Zeus" is a "gateway" for fans to finally be interested in Wonder Woman. Phil Jimenez's theory is that it adds an air of "legitimacy" to her power levels, and readers who have strong power fantasies like to be able to point to her connection to the King of the Gods as a way to insist/prove that Wonder Woman is powerful.

My personal feeling is that making her the "daughter of Zeus" was patriarchy doing what patriarchy does: attempt to eliminate the more progressive feminist aspects of her origins and replace it with something that appeals to white cisgender heterosexual masculine sensibilities. It's almost blasphemous that they decided to make Zeus--one of the most rapey, misogynistic, cruel, and despicable gods of the Greek pantheon--Wonder Woman's "father." I think it's gross. And telling.

This is why I very much prefer what Kelly Sue DeConnick is doing in Wonder Woman Historia: The Amazons.

Ironic considering that WW's power has been pretty underwhelming since she became a child of Zeus.

And you are right. Azz, the sexism in the industry and patriarchy had their way. They destroyed many unique elemewnts in an iconic feminist and girl power icon like WW.

[bardkeep]

I often think about why "daughter of Zeus" is a "gateway" for fans to finally be interested in Wonder Woman. Phil Jimenez's theory is that it adds an air of "legitimacy" to her power levels, and readers who have strong power fantasies like to be able to point to her connection to the King of the Gods as a way to insist/prove that Wonder Woman is powerful.

My personal feeling is that making her the "daughter of Zeus" was patriarchy doing what patriarchy does: attempt to eliminate the more progressive feminist aspects of her origins and replace it with something that appeals to white cisgender heterosexual masculine sensibilities. It's almost blasphemous that they decided to make Zeus--one of the most rapey, misogynistic, cruel, and despicable gods of the Greek pantheon--Wonder Woman's "father." I think it's gross. And telling.

This is why I very much prefer what Kelly Sue DeConnick is doing in Wonder Woman Historia: The Amazons.

Exactly this. All of the big changes that came with Azzarello’s run - and really the changes a lot of writers have made post-Perez to make her “less boring” - strip away all of the elements of the character that are subversive and anti-patriarchal (evil Amazons, Zeus as her father, turning her into a generic violent sword chick/goddess of war rather than a diplomat with a message).

It also disregards the fact that she’s a liberation fantasy - she represents the end of a cycle of violence not only because she’s too powerful to be subjugated, but also because she’s the first Amazon who wasn’t born from or profoundly shaped by trauma. It’s a powerful intersectional message that sets her apart. It loses a lot of weight if the Amazons don’t independently actualize it, and it’s undermined entirely when her dad is basically the embodiment of oppressive patriarchal power.

IMO Historia is the best thing to happen to WW’s lore since Perez.

[Factor]

I disagree. I've seen tons of casuals who only know Diana based on the movie describe her as 'the daughter of Zeus'. Whether we like it or not, the Azz run has been the gateway to WW for many folks.

At the very least, an actual faithful adaptation of WW is bound to create confusion for those who had seen the Jenkins movies.

Yeah. And let's not forget that in DCU Infinite, the Azz run is still the first recomendation that appears regarding Wonder Woman. That app is so outdated that the recomendations are usually still New 52 stuff.

[SonOfBaldwin]

Exactly this. All of the big changes that came with Azzarello’s run - and really the changes a lot of writers have made post-Perez to make her “less boring” - strip away all of the elements of the character that are subversive and anti-patriarchal (evil Amazons, Zeus as her father, turning her into a generic violent sword chick/goddess of war rather than a diplomat with a message).

It also disregards the fact that she’s a liberation fantasy - she represents the end of a cycle of violence not only because she’s too powerful to be subjugated, but also because she’s the first Amazon who wasn’t born from or profoundly shaped by trauma. It’s a powerful intersectional message that sets her apart. It loses a lot of weight if the Amazons don’t independently actualize it, and it’s undermined entirely when her dad is basically the embodiment of oppressive patriarchal power.

IMO Historia is the best thing to happen to WW’s lore since Perez.

Every single word you said.

You can tell how methodical the undoing of the feminist aspects of Wonder Woman were during the Azz run. He and DiDio plotted, as though their guiding mission statement was: "How do we make this more appealing to dudebros and thus garner better sales?", and in ways that are rather insidious began their deconstruction and replacement.

It's like you said--evil misandrist Amazons representing the misogynist Greek perspective on independent womanhood, the treatment of her born-from-clay origin as something to be loathed or considered gross, the attempt to pair her with Orion after he sexually assaulted her on some "Aw shucks! He's not really a r*pist, he just needed a woman to explain to him why he shouldn't go around slapping women on their rear end." And it worked! Dudebros (and people with strong power masculinist fantasies) LOVE that run and cite it as the one that most excites them. It doesn't matter to them if this interpretation is what Marston feared most, the "blood-curdling masculinity" he warned us about. They prefer power to the liberation you so keenly observed.

As far as I'm concerned, HISTORIA is my canon. That's the Wonder Woman lore I'm interested in.

[SiegePerilous02]

I'm hoping the high sales of Historia- (at least the first issue) send a message to DC/WB. The goal would be for the collected edition to be an evergreen seller in book stores. An epic story with fantastic art and a female centric narrative while being written by a woman will be proof that the patriarchal narrative devices aren't necessary. And if Historia is a hit, it is ripe material for adaptations. Hopefully if the Amazons spin off gets made, there are some small retcons in place so elements from Historia get used, like Zeus as a bad guy

We REALLY need all 9 books.

[BiteTheBullet]

I'm hoping the high sales of Historia- (at least the first issue) send a message to DC/WB. The goal would be for the collected edition to be an evergreen seller in book stores. An epic story with fantastic art and a female centric narrative while being written by a woman will be proof that the patriarchal narrative devices aren't necessary. And if Historia is a hit, it is ripe material for adaptations. Hopefully if the Amazons spin off gets made, there are some small retcons in place so elements from Historia get used, like Zeus as a bad guy

We REALLY need all 9 books.

Has either of the two Historia's that are out now even have Diana in them?

[Alpha]

Has either of the two Historia's that are out now even have Diana in them?

No, that has been stated right from the beginning . This story isn't about Diana, it's about Hippolyta, the female Goddesses and the other amazons. Most Wonder Woman fans think the amazons are fadcinating and cool, and that Hippolyta deserves an epic saga unto herself.

Diana will only appear in the final books, maybe book 8. The story ends when Steve Trevor arrives on Paradise Island.

(Some of us have theories that Diana technically appeared in book 1, in a former life that will eventually become the clay figure we all know)

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Meanwhile im struck by the figure from book 1 shares an origin with Queen Astra...

[SiegePerilous02]

Has either of the two Historia's that are out now even have Diana in them?

Technically no, possibly (?) In some form. It's chiefly the story of Hippolyta, the Amazons in general and the goddesses.

If we get all 9 issues, Diana is already confirmed to not be Zeus's daughter by the creative team and Zeus is an antagonist. So we will most likely get the clay birth or something similar.

[Nyssane]

Technically no, possibly (?) In some form. It's chiefly the story of Hippolyta, the Amazons in general and the goddesses.

If we get all 9 issues, Diana is already confirmed to not be Zeus's daughter by the creative team and Zeus is an antagonist. So we will most likely get the clay birth or something similar.

I feel like Book 3 will end with Diana being born. Hopefully 4-6 would be about Diana on Themyscira, maybe facing off against Circe or something. And 7-9 with Diana in Man's World facing off against Cheetah/Villainy Inc.

[SiegePerilous02]

I feel like Book 3 will end with Diana being born. Hopefully 4-6 would be about Diana on Themyscira, maybe facing off against Circe or something. And 7-9 with Diana in Man's World facing off against Cheetah/Villainy Inc.

That would be pretty cool, but DeConnick has already said book 9 will end with Steve crashing on Themyscira if she gets to write it.

So book 3 might just be round 1 against Hercules. Now that you mention it though, I YEARN for a Black Label Villainy Inc book by Kelly and Phil

[Fuzzy Mittens]

its also been mentioned that books 4-6 are 'the emperor strikes back' so I suspect what we will be getting is

1-3: Establish the Amazons. Build up their status as a people. Have them grow and prosper
4-6: Establish them having carved out their little home and then the whole arc with Hercules and all of that.
7-9: Establish them arriving on the island, trying to rebuild, Diana being molded to life, growing up, and ending with the plane crashing scene.

[SiegePerilous02]

its also been mentioned that books 4-6 are 'the emperor strikes back' so I suspect what we will be getting is

1-3: Establish the Amazons. Build up their status as a people. Have them grow and prosper
4-6: Establish them having carved out their little home and then the whole arc with Hercules and all of that.
7-9: Establish them arriving on the island, trying to rebuild, Diana being molded to life, growing up, and ending with the plane crashing scene.

In this case, I imagine the Amazons will come out victorious in book 3 and Hippolyta to get promoted to Uber Queen, while Act 2 has Hercules come back to enslave them

[John Venus]

I often think about why "daughter of Zeus" is a "gateway" for fans to finally be interested in Wonder Woman. Phil Jimenez's theory is that it adds an air of "legitimacy" to her power levels, and readers who have strong power fantasies like to be able to point to her connection to the King of the Gods as a way to insist/prove that Wonder Woman is powerful.

My personal feeling is that making her the "daughter of Zeus" was patriarchy doing what patriarchy does: attempt to eliminate the more progressive feminist aspect of her origins and replace it with something that appeals to white cisgender heterosexual masculine sensibilities. It's almost blasphemous that they decided to make Zeus--one of the most rapey, misogynistic, cruel, and despicable gods of the Greek pantheon--Wonder Woman's "father." I think it's gross. And telling.

This is why I very much prefer what Kelly Sue DeConnick is doing in Wonder Woman Historia: The Amazons.

I think part of it is the short hand of saying 'she got powered by the King of the Gods'

the other part is the subconscious bias which makes them think that Hippolyta/Amazons/Goddesses aren't legitimate sources of power and the fear/belief that a mostly female run society is inherently bigoted. It harkens back to the idea that women are weak and cannot possibly build their own functioning society.

With how CBMs are embracing the Multiverse approach, I think audiences are getting used to multiple versions of characters and details won't always line up. Most of the casuals I talk to don't focus on the Zeus element that much.

There's also the fact that the film doesn't have any resemblance to the Azz run beyond Zeus being the father, and it's executed in a far different way. I think calling it the "gateway" for many WW fans is exaggeration, especially as the film also borrows stuff from the Perez run, the Golden Age and TV show and brings its own elements to the table.

Again, I would still vastly have preferred the clay birth, but I don't think this is as cemented to WW as the Byrne influence is (unfortunately) for Superman. Especially as we only have two solo movies and the second one only had one brief mention of Zeus.

The movie showed Zeus as the creator of the Amazons, the primary opposite of Ares, Diana shooting lightning bolts, learning at the end that Zeus was her father, its also only major live action film she had in recent memory and the DCU is nowhere near the MCU in terms of consistency and success. Whether we like it or not people are going to default back to this movie and that means they're going to associate Diana with Zeus. I'm not imagining scenarios, this is based on actual interactions and comments I've seen from casual audiences who now think Diana is the daughter of Zeus.

Like Gaius said, the only way we are going to get away from Daddy Zeus is if we get a whole string of successful adaptations that adapts her Perez/Martson backstories.

Also the Injustice franchise uses that origin, and the games/comics for that are some of the most popular stuff DC has put out in the last decade (fml).

Yep. There is that too.

I can't say I see the Zeus origin going anywhere until there's a big piece of media (probably multiple) where it's explicitly not used. But even then I can see DC (WBs) insisting even if the clay version is used that a male god be involved in bringing WW to life (see the DCAU).

Fortunately at least it seems Daddy Zeus isn't ironclad anymore as there has been stuff recently where it's not being used.

But yeah, Daddy Zeus with popular with casuals and knuckle draggers who think Zack Snyder is a Philosopher and Injustice is deeper than a fortune cookie. So it will have unfortunately have staying power.

Yeah, it's pretty clear that some higher up wants the terrible Zeus crap to remain canon. Otherwise, Rucka, Orland or Cloonrad would have retconned it already.

Maybe the upcoming game won't use the Daddy Zeus origin, to avoid the God of War comparison.

Though it's more likely they just won't mention her origin than address the clay origin.

That's wishful thinking.

Would you like to purchase an invisible plane?

[Sebastianne]

Diana references her clay origin in one of the issues written by G Willow Wilson. Does anyone remember what number it is?