New WW Creative Team: Becky Cloonan, Michael Conrad and Travis Moore

[bardkeep]

No, that has been stated right from the beginning . This story isn't about Diana, it's about Hippolyta, the female Goddesses and the other amazons. Most Wonder Woman fans think the amazons are fadcinating and cool, and that Hippolyta deserves an epic saga unto herself.

Diana will only appear in the final books, maybe book 8. The story ends when Steve Trevor arrives on Paradise Island.

(Some of us have theories that Diana technically appeared in book 1, in a former life that will eventually become the clay figure we all know)

I think book 3 will end with Diana’s birth just because Kelly Sue has said books 1-3 can function as a self-contained story and she’d be fine with it ending there but wants to continue. I can’t see her being satisfied with it ending before they show a birth that isn’t Daddy Zeus.

Also there’s a lot that could happen on the island between Diana being born and Steve arriving. Especially if they go with her being hundreds of years old when she first leaves.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think book 3 will end with Diana’s birth just because Kelly Sue has said books 1-3 can function as a self-contained story and she’d be fine with it ending there but wants to continue. I can’t see her being satisfied with it ending before they show a birth that isn’t Daddy Zeus.

Also there’s a lot that could happen on the island between Diana being born and Steve arriving. Especially if they go with her being hundreds of years old when she first leaves.

Kelly Sue has said she didn't "shrink down the story arena" to accommodate the books not going past 1-3, just that this section where she would have always stopped at the first third of the story could double as a final ending if need be.

Diana most likely won't be born this early. Hippolyta isn't even queen of the entire nation yet. I think we'll see a victory of the Amazons over Hercules and that can be viewed as a triumphant endpoint if we don't get books 4-9. But I imagine Hercules and the male Gods enslaving the Amazons will be the darker "Act 2" for books 4-6, and the Paradise Island stuff will be books 7-9.

[Psy-lock]

I want a Historia animated series so bad! After Wonder Woman herself gets a series that is.

[DABellWrites]

Exactly this. All of the big changes that came with Azzarello’s run - and really the changes a lot of writers have made post-Perez to make her “less boring” - strip away all of the elements of the character that are subversive and anti-patriarchal (evil Amazons, Zeus as her father, turning her into a generic violent sword chick/goddess of war rather than a diplomat with a message).

It also disregards the fact that she’s a liberation fantasy - she represents the end of a cycle of violence not only because she’s too powerful to be subjugated, but also because she’s the first Amazon who wasn’t born from or profoundly shaped by trauma. It’s a powerful intersectional message that sets her apart. It loses a lot of weight if the Amazons don’t independently actualize it, and it’s undermined entirely when her dad is basically the embodiment of oppressive patriarchal power.

IMO Historia is the best thing to happen to WW’s lore since Perez.

No Zeus is not the embodiment of oppressive patriarchal power, let's not look at these ancient characters with a modern sensibility. Yes, Zeus in the myths is horrible because that's how later playwrights and poets wrote him, because that's the Zeus they got. We need to remember these writers were using centuries old stories and religions, and probably had some creative license to go along. Why was Zeus such a philanderer? Because when religion spread back then they adopted the local religion (or hero), which meant that Zeus got himself another child. Why is Zeus so damn cruel? Well, nature is cruel and Zeus (as we know him) is more an amalgamation of many different deities. And of course, it helped legitimize kings back then. The Japanese royal family claimed to have been descended from Jimmu, who himself was a descendant of Amaterasu. Jimmu is the "first emperor of Japan".
So yeah, I disagree. Is the Zeus we got horrible? Yes, yes he is. But, he's not some embodiment of oppressive patriarchy. He's the embodiment of Syncretism and all its glorious problems.

[John Venus]

The Greek Gods are meant to be representatives of emotions and concepts. Zeus is the King of the Gods but he can also be represented as an example of oppressive patriarchal power.

I actually find him being depicted as benevolent to be off putting most of the time and I'm not the only one. Go online and look up reactions to any cross media appearance of Zeus and you'll find that most people scoff at attempts to make him look benevolent (inlcuding the first WW movie). The WW mythos where Zeus is called out for being a abusive, tyrannical rapist who needs to be overthrown is exactly what we need today.

And when it comes to values of today vs yesterday, I think of it as; there are things that weren't widely accepted as wrong but that doesn't meant they weren't wrong. And I'm glad we are getting a story like Historia that actually explores that.

[Gaius]

The Greek Gods are meant to be representatives of emotions and concepts. Zeus is the King of the Gods but he can also be represented as an example of oppressive patriarchal power.

I actually find him being depicted as benevolent to be off putting most of the time and I'm not the only one. Go online and look up reactions to any cross media appearance of Zeus and you'll find that most people scoff at attempts to make him look benevolent (inlcuding the first WW movie). The WW mythos where Zeus is called out for being a abusive, tyrannical rapist who needs to be overthrown is exactly what we need today.

And when it comes to values of today vs yesterday, I think of it as; there are things that weren't widely accepted as wrong but that doesn't meant they weren't wrong. And I'm glad we are getting a story like Historia that actually explores that.

I always found it amusing one of the only pieces of modern fiction that treats Zeus as an antagonist where the God of War games.

[Perseus]

I always found it amusing one of the only pieces of modern fiction that treats Zeus as an antagonist where the God of War games.

Yeah, but the whole thing was that he was filled with fear via pandora's box from the first game (and Kratos was filled with Hope ), so..... it was like an easy copout to say Zeus wasn't in the right mind.

[Gaius]

Yeah, but the whole thing was that he was filled with fear via pandora's box from the first game (and Kratos was filled with Hope ), so..... it was like an easy copout to say Zeus wasn't in the right mind.

Load of good it did him.

[Perseus]

Load of good it did him.

Thats hope power right there

[DABellWrites]

The Greek Gods are meant to be representatives of emotions and concepts. Zeus is the King of the Gods but he can also be represented as an example of oppressive patriarchal power.

Well, of course. I bet religion in ancient times is no different than today for the average worshiper today. As we try to understand why would these Gods and/or God allow these crimes to happen? Why does death happen? All these questions leads to more complexity. I'd like to ask, what is oppressive patriarchal power?

I actually find him being depicted as benevolent to be off putting most of the time and I'm not the only one. Go online and look up reactions to any cross media appearance of Zeus and you'll find that most people scoff at attempts to make him look benevolent (inlcuding the first WW movie). The WW mythos where Zeus is called out for being a abusive, tyrannical rapist who needs to be overthrown is exactly what we need today.

Well, yeah. I deleted my benevolent line. I was thinking more in line of his attributes such as ruling over justice, fate, protector of guest and foreigners, law, order and all that stuff. With the depiction of Zeus being this sex-crazed maniac, people often forget he is the king of the Gods. Protector of both Gods and Men. Is it off-putting? I enjoyed Zeus in the Disney's Hercules movie. I thought he was great. Also, tyrannical?

For the same reason he protects the assembly of the people (agoraios), the meetings of the council (boulaios), and as he presides over the whole state, so also over every house and family (herkeios, Od. xxii. 335; comp. Ov. Ib. 285). He also watched over the sanctity of the oath (horkios), the law of hospitality (xenios), and protected suppliants (hikesios, Od. ix. 270; comp. Paus. v. 24. § 2). He avenged those who were wronged, and punished those who had committed a crime, for he watched the doings and sufferings of all men (epopsios, Od. xiii. 213; comp. Apollon. Rhod. i. 1123).

From Theoi.com, a very good website I may add. Nothing tyrannical about the guy. However, it really depends on the writer. As each writer had a varying interpretation of Zeus. I actually remember reading somewhere, I think in the book Greek Drama or Edith Hamilton's mythology, that an ancient Greek writer changed his play's ending to get a sad reaction out of the audience and win the competition. Are we really going to think this guy in the above passage is the same guy in the plays and poems? I personally would love to see this Zeus more than the boring sex-maniac. And no, I don't think calling out an ancient God is what we need today. What purpose does it serve? How about we do that to religions that are more relevant?

I'll add this passage from Hera:

The Homeric poems know nothing of all this, and we only hear, that after the marriage with Zeus, she was treated by the Olympian gods with the same reverence as her husband. (Il. xv. 85, &c.; comp. i. 532, &c., iv. 60, &c.) Zeus himself, according to Homer, listened to her counsels, and communicated his secrets to her rather than to other gods (xvi. 458, i. 547). Hera also thinks herself justified in censuring Zeus when he consults others without her knowing it (i. 540, &c.); but she is, notwithstanding, far inferior to him in power; she must obey him unconditionally, and, like the other gods, she is chastised by him when she has offended him (iv. 56, viii. 427, 463). Hera therefore is not, like Zeus, the queen of gods and men, but simply the wife of the supreme god. The idea of her being the queen of heaven, with regal wealth and power, is of a much later date. (Hygin. Fab. 92; Ov. Fast. vi. 27, Heroid. xvi. 81; Eustath. ad Hom. p. 81.) There is only one point in which the Homeric poems represent Hera as possessed of similar power with Zeus, viz. she is able to confer the power of prophecy (xix. 407). But this idea is not further developed in later times. (Comp. Strab. p. 380; Apollon. Rhod. iii. 931.)

Her character, as described by Homer, is not of a very amiable kind, and its main features are jealousy, obstinacy, and a quarrelling disposition, which sometimes makes her own husband tremble (i. 522, 536, 561, v. 892.) Hence there arise frequent disputes between Hera and Zeus; and on one occasion Hera, in conjunction with Poseidon and Athena, contemplated putting Zeus into chains (viii. 408, i. 399). Zeus, in such cases, not only threatens, but beats her; and once he even hung her up in the clouds, her hands chained, and with two anvils suspended from her feet (viii. 400, &c., 477, xv. 17, &c.; Eustath. ad Hom. p. 1003).

I think this passage really highlights the problem with Zeus and Hera. On one hand, we read Zeus holds Hera in high esteem, and actually holds her opinion above the others. But, we also see Hera was nothing more than a proper and perfect woman of her times. But, when Hera stepped out of line, he got violent. It's a mess and a mix bag. Can we interpret this life in certain period of Greece? Probably. Can we interpret this as some writers saw Hera as more than the wife of Zeus? Probably. But, we don't have the whole picture, sadly. Just the remnants that survived.

And when it comes to values of today vs yesterday, I think of it as; there are things that weren't widely accepted as wrong but that doesn't meant they weren't wrong. And I'm glad we are getting a story like Historia that actually explores that.

That we fully can't judge since we haven't lived it. There were laws in ancient Greece and Rome that protected women who were free and married. However, slaves were free game and weren't considered human. Anyways, glad you're happy. I tried to read Historia. I applaud Phil Jimmenz for his art, but damn was that too much.

[Hypo]

Wonder Woman #787 Preview
Writers: Becky Cloonan and Michael W. Conrad
Artist: Emanuela Lupacchino
Backup Writer: Jordie Bellaire
Backup Artist: Paulina Ganucheau

[Shimbo]

Wonder Woman #787 Preview
Writers: Becky Cloonan and Michael W. Conrad
Artist: Emanuela Lupacchino
Backup Writer: Jordie Bellaire
Backup Artist: Paulina Ganucheau

Looks good! Nice to see them addressing the giant plot hole that was Altuum in TotA.

[Gaius]

Happy to be back to a regular book, liking this preview more than what we got out of Trial.

[Frontier]

Wonder Woman #787 Preview
Writers: Becky Cloonan and Michael W. Conrad
Artist: Emanuela Lupacchino
Backup Writer: Jordie Bellaire
Backup Artist: Paulina Ganucheau

Hippolyta going out into Man's World was a...thing that happened which I guess we can reference now. felt like a giant waste.

Is Diana still princess of Themyscira now? Or is she just another Amazon and the one they send out into Man's World?

[Primal Slayer]

Hippolyta going out into Man's World was a...thing that happened which I guess we can reference now. felt like a giant waste.

Is Diana still princess of Themyscira now? Or is she just another Amazon and the one they send out into Man's World?

The biggest waste. It didnt add anything to the character/overall story.

Ever since Diana returned to the Island she's just felt like another Amazon. Her presence...idk should feel bigger than it does?