New WW Creative Team: Becky Cloonan, Michael Conrad and Travis Moore

[Perseus]

I hear what you're saying, but your argument sounds like you don't like the current team and are using its (rough and suspect) sales numbers to justify replacing them, which hits those of us enjoying it hard because we actually think Cloonrad are doing good work. And, we all recognize, WW has always been not the greatest seller. So levying this criticism against this creative team seems a bit unfair considering this is the case for most WW runs.

It seems Cloonrad and Wonder creatives and editorial are slowly building up a foundation for future runs to rely on. This is stuff that should have been done a long time ago, but WW is stuck playing catch up. And I'm fine with that, when it's this entertaining. Of course, your mileage may vary. I hope you continue reading the book and getting something out of it. Hopefully the upcoming conflict with the gods will be the sort of A-game stuff that interests you again. I apologize if it seemed like I was criticizing your opinion, but I'm just a little defensive of this run considering the dismal and milquetoast runs we've largely gotten the past 10 years.

tbh I haven't liked a lot of the teams since Rucka left, maybe most of Steve Orlando and some bits of Cloonrad and Becky, but mostly all misses imo. Sorry if people feel different, but I'm just not enjoying it. I find the story telling boring and derivative, and a lot of questionable changes that haven't proven to me to be good ones. The supposedly had some plans with Trials of the Amazons and that was a very divisive run imo. Bad pacing, character changes, and an overarching plot that hasn't inspired me with confidence. I will be blunt, I frankly don't much care for Hippolyta ascending to godhood. I don't view as this 'thing' she's 'deserved' for a long time. Why have the amazons suddenly lost a lot of support on Olympus? Olympus Rebirth didn't clear anything up. I know Zeus has a ton of kids, but they aren't as influential as the big 12. Athena, Artemis, Hestia, Demeter, Aphrodite, and Hermes suddenly don't care that much anymore? Apollo in main universe is not the same Apollo as in histora, did he suddenly abandon his sister? I'm not gonna go on but that's my grip with the mythology part, I haven't even gotten into the outside world/syfy parts.

I'm sorry, but there already was a foundation to build on in the Wonder Woman universe. Cloonrad and Becky and the whole teams have upended it for no reason, and it hasn't been a pretty image imo.

My criticisms don't come from a place of hatred, I love Diana and her universe. I WANT to like Diana right now, but I just don't. I see that things could have been done differently and better even. I'm just voicing an opinion.

[bardkeep]

tbh I haven't liked a lot of the teams since Rucka left, maybe most of Steve Orlando and some bits of Cloonrad and Becky, but mostly all misses imo. Sorry if people feel different, but I'm just not enjoying it. I find the story telling boring and derivative, and a lot of questionable changes that haven't proven to me to be good ones. The supposedly had some plans with Trials of the Amazons and that was a very divisive run imo. Bad pacing, character changes, and an overarching plot that hasn't inspired me with confidence. I will be blunt, I frankly don't much care for Hippolyta ascending to godhood. I don't view as this 'thing' she's 'deserved' for a long time. Why have the amazons suddenly lost a lot of support on Olympus? Olympus Rebirth didn't clear anything up. I know Zeus has a ton of kids, but they aren't as influential as the big 12. Athena, Artemis, Hestia, Demeter, Aphrodite, and Hermes suddenly don't care that much anymore? Apollo in main universe is not the same Apollo as in histora, did he suddenly abandon his sister? I'm not gonna go on but that's my grip with the mythology part, I haven't even gotten into the outside world/syfy parts.

I'm sorry, but there already was a foundation to build on in the Wonder Woman universe. Cloonrad and Becky and the whole teams have upended it for no reason, and it hasn't been a pretty image imo.

My criticisms don't come from a place of hatred, I love Diana and her universe. I WANT to like Diana right now, but I just don't. I see that things could have been done differently and better even. I'm just voicing an opinion.

I like Cloonrad's run for the most part (not as much as a lot of folks here, but definitely more than anything else post-Rucka Rebirth) but I agree that it's been really uneven. The first 2 arcs were solid but Trial of the Amazons was a total bust and the Villainy Inc. arc that just ended was fun enough but ultimately forgettable. They have gotten consistently better with Diana's voice over time though.

I totally disagree that there's a strong foundation they're upending though. At this point there's barely any foundation for Olympus in canon - we've seen very little of it post-Rebirth and they're just starting to set things up. The only monumental change was Hippolyta becoming a goddess, which JUST happened and may not even wind up being permanent. And the Amazon lore has definitely seen some changes (mostly in Nubia's books) but it's still very traditional and Perez-ian, just with some new ideas and expansion that I think are really cool (e.g. the reimagined Well of Souls, the Esquecida, the 3 tribes coming together, the expanded roles of Nubia and Philippus, the intro of new characters like Faruka, Bia, and Anahi).

[Vordan]

Yeah I’m interested in what the foundation masterwitcher is thinking of is. Arguably Diana’s last “foundational” run was Rucka and his stuff is still entirely intact far as I can tell. My own personal opinion on the current run is “fine but forgettable”. I doubt it’s a run anyone will be talking about for long after Cloonrad are done, although if the next writer is horrid that may not be the case, but it’s trying to meet a lot of requests Wondy fans have had for ages (use her classic villains, stop fiddling with her origin, use the Wonder Family, etc). If you want a “big” run well that means getting a “big” writer and letting them do what they want with the franchise which may very well backfire in your face.

So it’s a question of if you think potentially getting a legendary run is worth the trade off of a major writer possibly torching the franchise because they want to remake it to suit themselves. For example you want an A-List writer on WW? Well the only two writers at DC currently who I’d say qualify as “A-List” are Tom King and Geoff Johns. Anyone willing to take a risk on either of those two taking over the book? They’d get attention, they’d get sales numbers up, they’d get A-List artists, but they definitely are going to “leave their mark” as it were.

[Perseus]

I like Cloonrad's run for the most part (not as much as a lot of folks here, but definitely more than anything else post-Rucka Rebirth) but I agree that it's been really uneven. The first 2 arcs were solid but Trial of the Amazons was a total bust and the Villainy Inc. arc that just ended was fun enough but ultimately forgettable. They have gotten consistently better with Diana's voice over time though.

I totally disagree that there's a strong foundation they're upending though. At this point there's barely any foundation for Olympus in canon - we've seen very little of it post-Rebirth and they're just starting to set things up. The only monumental change was Hippolyta becoming a goddess, which JUST happened and may not even wind up being permanent. And the Amazon lore has definitely seen some changes (mostly in Nubia's books) but it's still very traditional and Perez-ian, just with some new ideas and expansion that I think are really cool (e.g. the reimagined Well of Souls, the Esquecida, the 3 tribes coming together, the expanded roles of Nubia and Philippus, the intro of new characters like Faruka, Bia, and Anahi).

I think the Sphere of Gods arc was pretty good, I wish there was some more stuff from there but its whatever. Didn't care for the gender/sex flipped universe with 'wonder man' and I feel like the fairy world could have been better, I wish it was Devastation that was killing gods and not Janus, but that's me wanting people to use her plethora of villains not a factor of how they wrote Janus which was fine. I am mostly annoyed with HOW they've used her mythology cast; it could have been so much more. But I don't think they want to make this into a Greek Epic mixed with Sy-fy, and it's just not for me. Or maybe it's not at the level that I think it can be and I just get bored. I want REAL stakes, REAL situations where characters make conflicting decisions and not everything works out all the time, I want to turn the page and wonder if these characters can get out of this situation alive. Heck, I want the bad guys to win sometimes. Traditional campy Superhero tropes isn't doing it for me, and Diana is a character that I love that I also believe can branch out (some would say 'escape') the constraints of that storytelling. I just haven't been really gripped yet is all.

Dr. Psycho is good (But the milk thing was bland), Prof. Calculator should have been axed, Dolos was good (though I wish I had gotten more), Mirror Guy felt like a rip off of Master Mirror didn't much care for it nor for 'Sweetie' saw that arch a mile away, Poison should have not been on that team and even then, far more deadly. Now they have Cheetah in some track suit looking like some Lulu Lemon CEO. I buy the book out of love for the character, not for the creative decision making.

[Gaius]

Yeah I’m interested in what the foundation masterwitcher is thinking of is. Arguably Diana’s last “foundational” run was Rucka and his stuff is still entirely intact far as I can tell. My own personal opinion on the current run is “fine but forgettable”. I doubt it’s a run anyone will be talking about for long after Cloonrad are done, although if the next writer is horrid that may not be the case, but it’s trying to meet a lot of requests Wondy fans have had for ages (use her classic villains, stop fiddling with her origin, use the Wonder Family, etc). If you want a “big” run well that means getting a “big” writer and letting them do what they want with the franchise which may very well backfire in your face.

So it’s a question of if you think potentially getting a legendary run is worth the trade off of a major writer possibly torching the franchise because they want to remake it to suit themselves. For example you want an A-List writer on WW? Well the only two writers at DC currently who I’d say qualify as “A-List” are Tom King and Geoff Johns. Anyone willing to take a risk on either of those two taking over the book? They’d get attention, they’d get sales numbers up, they’d get A-List artists, but they definitely are going to “leave their mark” as it were.

Would King actually try to write WW if he did a WW run?

No Superman or Batman for the story to really be about like in his short in the 80th one-shot

[OBrianTallent]

I think Geoff Johns would actually try between him and King. Geoff has gone on record saying he didn't really care that much for Wonder Woman when he was writing Justice League but really found a fondness and interest for the character by the time the Darkseid War hit. King on the other hand is only capable of deconstructionist writing that he would tear the character apart while writing about everyone else in the book except her....making her miserable in the and angsty.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Considering his Darkseid War story which he described as a Wonder Woman story consisted of hamfistingly trying to push that whole 'twin brother of Wonder Woman' thing and making the new gods have a connection to the Amazons, im rather wary of what we would get from a Geoff Johns run...We do know that Darkseid and twin brothers use in Robinsons terrible run were editorial mandated, so its possible that Johns was the one pushing those elements.

[bardkeep]

Honestly other than the gorgeous artwork (easily the best on the main book since the Scott/Evely days) I really wish I liked today's issue more than I did.

spoilers:

I loved seeing Diana interact more with the Esquecidas and address them as her sisters (plus really cool use of the lasso with Anahi at the beginning!), but I'm feeling very done with the street level stuff in this run. It felt like a bait-and-switch - they were just starting to get into the stuff with the gods and explore some neat Amazon mysticism, only to quickly devolve into a clichéd "scope out a secret government operation" story. I was definitely intrigued by the ending with Cheetah though (and now we may see Veronica Cale, which I have mixed feelings about...). Also I really didn't like Diana beating the ever-loving crap out of some normal human guards just doing their jobs, especially when she (a) has super speed and (b) could easily have brought some of the Esquecidas' tranquilizer darts. And even if she did knock them out, surely she could have done it without literally pistol-whipping some regular dude's teeth out. That said, in spite of my complaints I'm very open to the possibility that I'm being impatient and they're getting there.

end of spoilers

Admittedly I think I'm also feeling a little sour on it because I just started rereading Rucka's Post-Crisis run and it's SO creative, intelligent, and epic in scope. A side-by-side isn't at all fair but it makes the Cloonrad run look really juvenile and derivative in comparison. Their Etta is still the best though.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I really appreciate how this current run keeps making use of a combination of new elements it introduced and all of these older elements and characters.

[Devaishwarya]

I really liked this set-up issue. (First issue I've read in a long while)
I saw the cover and thought: hmm., Cheetah goes after Diana again...sigh...but the ending definitely caught my interest.
And Sauvage's art is beauty-full.

[WonderLight789]

Cheetah is in na cage. Yet again treated like a regular cat beats it seems. Sigh.

[MarquisAsh]

Good issue! I liked everything I saw! From Hippolyta finally visiting Diana and telling her she is a threat to all of the gods to seeing Cale Industries and also seeing Cheetah caught by Cale Industries! Good to see the fued with Cale and Barbara will still be in effect.

Young Diana story is interesting. I wonder if this is an origin change?

[Gaius]

Thought this was pretty good. Nice to see the possible return of the Cale/Barbara dynamic.

Nice art.

[Mel Dyer]

At this point, I'd keep JANUS, Myrina Black, Circe and four other Godwatchers - Doctor Cyber, Queen Clea, Col. Poison and original Silver Swan and flush the rest.

Same for most of the male rogues - keep Adjudicator, First Born, Kung, Bushmaster, bring back Mars and his Court (General Destruction, Duke, Count, Earl, etc) and torch almost all of the rest! Let some writer make a Watchmen-styled story out of it, where Janus kills off all the sucky rogues ..or forces them to kill each other in a Roman gladiatorial coliseum, ..and move on with some new offerings from Cloonrad & Co.

I'm sick to death of the Cheetahs and whatnot bouncing around this comic, without writers feeling compelled to imbue them with the slightest semblance of a sustainable motivation for villainy. No thanks. JANUS is at least as powerful as Ares, Queen of Fables or Circe, wants a very specific thing, threatens a very specific thing, which happens to be precisely what Wonder Woman left Paradise to save Man's World from...

Give me five more Cloonrad villains, like this, and you can flush all of the classic rogues and, for my money, start over from scratch! Great supervillains have to threaten something that defines the superhero ..or vice versa, ..or go home and quit wasting our time. Writer/editor Robert Kanigher hurt this book, so grievously in the Silver Age - basically wasted the whole bloody Silver Age, and I'm getting tired of watching one celeb creative team, after another experiment their way th r ough, ultimately leaving all of us with a pile of garbage.

Janus, with her power and clarity of motivation ..and that freaky James Wan look, could easily be the next Darkseid, Mongul or Anti-Monitor - finally, a WW villain we can hold our head up, chatting up with other fans! A villain we don't have to explain WHY other fans should respect her! A WW villain, whose a physical match for W Diana - whom Superman punches and draws back a charred stump...Styx yes! How long have we been waiting for that?!

JANUS! Finally, a WW villain, who outwardly commands respect! More of that, please.

All that aside, we've got Cheetah in a cage, for #791. I'm going to take the high road ..and pray, kangaliers. That's all Tio Mel's got. Cheetah's in a cage, and I am praying Team Amazon and Edtr. Brittany Holzherr can make us not regret we saw that.

Would I like a Siggy/Helena Sandsmark thing, that brings Cassie into the comic for occasional teamups? Would I dig seeing Gen. Darnell retconned as Donna Troy's adoptive parent, during her Titan years, justifying occasional visits with Diana and her Army, in high stakes stories? Of course, I would, and I've said as much, on Twitter.

Do I have a Cloonrad & Co Santa list? Of course I do.

Siggy rounds out the current cast, with his new love interest, Mala, who joins Diana in Man's World as her Alfredish interests, driving him and Etta up a wall, with her terminally sunny Amazon optimism. Siggy romancing an Amazon keeps him in the mythos.

All that aside...

I'm basically happy. This might be a second Golden Age for Wonder Woman.

[Primal Slayer]

It was a good issue, not mindblowing but good, GREAT art though. That's for sure.

I still think everything with the Amazons was rushed tbh and all 3 tribes coming together with no issue has thrown away A LOT of story. Diana is finally interacting with the Esquecidas 1:1 and I think if there were still some tension there, it would've made things a little more exciting.