New WW Creative Team: Becky Cloonan, Michael Conrad and Travis Moore

[SiegePerilous02]

Regardless of whether the Titans were flailing even before Pantha showed up, she certainly didn't pull them out of the hole. Iconic and popular member she is not. Has she even come back since getting her head knocked off, and is there any particular demand for her?

[Koriand'r]

Cheetah has had some great character moments too. And based on feats tigra is nothing special either. But this is not the faukt of the characters. WW herself has been terribly writen and portrayed super weak in many comics. So i guess by your logic it means she sucks as a character.

No you care about feats, I care about competence. Cheetah sucks because Barbara Minerva has had multiple chances and iterations to fulfill her promise as Wonder Woman's big bad and has failed every time. She struggles with what Circe pulls off effortlessly.

[Frontier]

I like Cheetah and Tigra. Other than the female cat-lady thing they're completely different characters.

Joker and Luthor aren't known as Batman and Superman's respective archenemies because of the Legion of Doom, so why should that be a factor in Ares or Circe being Diana's archenemy? And frankly, Luthor and Joker teaming up is just as nonsensical when you take their respective goals and ideologies into account.

But they work so hilariously well together .

[Agent Z]

Tigra is much more than that one horrific issue of New Avengers. If you start at the beggining and read her adventures as The Cat, her transition into Tigra and her eventually becoming a mother you'll see Greer Nelson is a great character. Dr. Poison already explained Pantha to you.

Any potential Greer had was completely squandered when she transitioned to Tigra and her entire arc revolved around being treated like an animal in stories that seemed more comical than anything else and being the designated furry fanservice. Her becoming a mother is uninteresting at best, filled potential unfortunate implications at worst given how it was handled. When one of your own writers openly admits to hating you for being a feminist character, you're pretty much screwed.

[Frontier]

Any potential Greer had was completely squandered when she transitioned to Tigra and her entire arc revolved around being treated like an animal in stories that seemed more comical than anything else and being the designated furry fanservice. Her becoming a mother is uninteresting at best, filled potential unfortunate implications at worst given how it was handled. When one of your own writers openly admits to hating you for being a feminist character, you're pretty much screwed.

I love Greer as Tigra though.

[Perseus]

No you care about feats, I care about competence. Cheetah sucks because Barbara Minerva has had multiple chances and iterations to fulfill her promise as Wonder Woman's big bad and has failed every time. She struggles with what Circe pulls off effortlessly.

And this is 100% the character's fault, right? Not the people writing the dang thing...

edit: Cheetah is also not Diana's big bad, there are 3 villains total fighting for that position.

[bardkeep]

No you care about feats, I care about competence. Cheetah sucks because Barbara Minerva has had multiple chances and iterations to fulfill her promise as Wonder Woman's big bad and has failed every time. She struggles with what Circe pulls off effortlessly.

I've been thinking about it and I'll be real, I don't even think her failure to catch on as the #1 Big Bad is a characterization issue or something a writer can fix. I think it's totally surface-level. Every superhero has their savage, animalistic supervillain, but how many count that villain as their archnemesis? Obviously Barbara is and always has been more layered than that but just given her surface aesthetic, it's very hard to sell a feral cat-lady as the Lex Luthor, no matter how powerful or competent she is.

Circe, OTOH, is a classic hot evil sorceress. Your vain Wicked Queen type, the Evil Femme to Diana's pretty princess Good Femme. Everyone connects with that instantly because it's such a familiar dynamic. You can call it trite/derivative because it's so Disney, but I think it's a super fun spin on the trope and I loooove a dose of that straight-up girly shit in a sea of hypermasculinity.

[Shimbo]

I've been thinking about it and I'll be real, I don't even think her failure to catch on as the #1 Big Bad is a characterization issue or something a writer can fix. I think it's totally surface-level. Every superhero has their savage, animalistic supervillain, but how many count that villain as their archnemesis? Obviously Barbara is and always has been more layered than that but just given her surface aesthetic, it's very hard to sell a feral cat-lady as the Lex Luthor, no matter how powerful or competent she is.

Circe, OTOH, is a classic hot evil sorceress. Your vain Wicked Queen type, the Evil Femme to Diana's pretty princess Good Femme. Everyone connects with that instantly because it's such a familiar dynamic. You can call it trite/derivative because it's so Disney, but I think it's a super fun spin on the trope and I loooove a dose of that straight-up girly shit in a sea of hypermasculinity.

While I agree with your analysis, a bald man in a green and purple suit (powered or not) and a clown in a...purple suit don't exactly scream surface-level archnemeses material either, IMO.

[Gaius]

I've been thinking about it and I'll be real, I don't even think her failure to catch on as the #1 Big Bad is a characterization issue or something a writer can fix. I think it's totally surface-level. Every superhero has their savage, animalistic supervillain, but how many count that villain as their archnemesis? Obviously Barbara is and always has been more layered than that but just given her surface aesthetic, it's very hard to sell a feral cat-lady as the Lex Luthor, no matter how powerful or competent she is.

Circe, OTOH, is a classic hot evil sorceress. Your vain Wicked Queen type, the Evil Femme to Diana's pretty princess Good Femme. Everyone connects with that instantly because it's such a familiar dynamic. You can call it trite/derivative because it's so Disney, but I think it's a super fun spin on the trope and I loooove a dose of that straight-up girly shit in a sea of hypermasculinity.

Yeah, I've always kind of thought Circe's a been a better sell because of how ingrained stuff like "The Wicked Witch", or "Evil Queen", archetype is in fiction/pop culture.

[bardkeep]

While I agree with your analysis, a bald man in a green and purple suit (powered or not) and a clown in a...purple suit don't exactly scream surface-level archnemeses material either, IMO.

True but (a) it's specifically the savage/animal vs. civilized/human thing that I think throws people (myself included tbh) off and (b) sadly it's a lot easier to sell a male character as a credible threat

[Frontier]

I've been thinking about it and I'll be real, I don't even think her failure to catch on as the #1 Big Bad is a characterization issue or something a writer can fix. I think it's totally surface-level. Every superhero has their savage, animalistic supervillain, but how many count that villain as their archnemesis? Obviously Barbara is and always has been more layered than that but just given her surface aesthetic, it's very hard to sell a feral cat-lady as the Lex Luthor, no matter how powerful or competent she is.

Circe, OTOH, is a classic hot evil sorceress. Your vain Wicked Queen type, the Evil Femme to Diana's pretty princess Good Femme. Everyone connects with that instantly because it's such a familiar dynamic. You can call it trite/derivative because it's so Disney, but I think it's a super fun spin on the trope and I loooove a dose of that straight-up girly shit in a sea of hypermasculinity.

I guess that's part of the appeal of Post-Crisis Cheetah. She at least is a little more humanoid so she can still be as calculating as she is savage.

But yes, Circe is awesome .

[Koriand'r]

Yeah, I've always kind of thought Circe's a been a better sell because of how ingrained stuff like "The Wicked Witch", or "Evil Queen", archetype is in fiction/pop culture.

Then why doesn't that work for the Queen of Fables? Morgaine le Fey, Queen Clea, the Morrigan, Hecate, Magala and others? In some cases it's simple usage, but the rest it's what they're lacking. Circe has personality and I'll even go so far as to say toning her down in Rebirth was an effort to dim her light so "Barbara Ann" could shine.

[Frontier]

Then why doesn't that work for the Queen of Fables? Morgaine le Fey, Queen Clea, the Morrigan, Hecate, Magala and others? In some cases it's simple usage but it's also what they're lacking Circe has personality and I'll even go so far as to say toning her down in Rebirth was an effort to dim her light so "Barbara Ann" could shine.

Feels like they toned down the femininity of both villains though.

[Koriand'r]

Feels like they toned down the femininity of both villains though.

Certainly for Circe, Cheetah was no less feminine to me because they took away her hair and paired her with Etta.

It's funny their relationship went unmentioned in this issue, but Etta got a new potential love interest. She had purple hair could she be Circe in disguise? j/k That would be something though if Etta dated both Cheetah and Circe.

[WonderLight789]

No you care about feats, I care about competence. Cheetah sucks because Barbara Minerva has had multiple chances and iterations to fulfill her promise as Wonder Woman's big bad and has failed every time. She struggles with what Circe pulls off effortlessly.

Cheetah sucks because more often than not. Writers even WW writers treat like she is useless and dumb. That is not the character's fault. She didn't have multiple chances to be a top threat. Because most writers just use her like a jobber. Like they also do with WW in a lot of stories. Circe was easily tricked and defeated by Batman with a few magic words. So again. Any character can be a jobber when the bias of writers get in the way. 99% of the time. WW is a useless character in jl stories. Where she does nothig important. Usually gets her butt handed to her. And is portrayed with either a lifless personality or as a blood thirsty bitch. So it is interesting that you use against Cheetah the same argument that can be made against WW. Usually Superman, Shazam, Manhunter etc can do what she does and better. Because they don't get to used as jobbers as often as WW these days. Meaning there are many DC characters with similar powers to WW, that are more competent than her. So like hero like archy villain.