New WW Creative Team: Becky Cloonan, Michael Conrad and Travis Moore

[Frontier]

Yeah, this really hasn't been a good era for the Wonder Girls (outside Yara I guess).

[Gaius]

This run’s had problems, yes, mainly from ToA onwards but I also wouldn’t really put the use (or lack of use) of Cassie and Donna as one of them. They’re sporadic appearing characters at best in other runs so I won’t really ding them here.

I wasn't a fan of Yara cancelled book so the most recent issue picking up plot points from there didn’t do much for me, especially since I don’t remember most of it.

[Koriand'r]

They were quick guest stars. They barely interacted with Diana, and have not had anything to with her world outside of that.

Like you said, a quick panel and next to nothing else. That's ignoring them. If you can replace them with any kind of character then there's no impact.

Why did Donna choose to help the Bana? Why was she mad at Diana? Why did she fill so disconnected from Hippolytas death?

I'm sorry but this sounds like a flimsy excuse to me. I can quote you chapter and verse in vivid detail why I dislike Gail Simone's run. There are a plethora of reasons with different levels to them. That's not what's happening here. Here we get vague stuff like boredom, or lack of scope, all the while conveniently forgetting plot points and story elements that contradict those answers.

[Primal Slayer]

This runÂ’s had problems, yes, mainly from ToA onwards but I also wouldnÂ’t really put the use (or lack of use) of Cassie and Donna as one of them. TheyÂ’re sporadic appearing characters at best in other runs so I wonÂ’t really ding them here.

I wasnÂ’t a fan of YaraÂ’a cancelled book so the most recent issue picking up plot points from there didnÂ’t do much for me, especially since I donÂ’t remember most of it.

They appeared a decent amount pre-52. but their exclusion is always been a blemish after that and a huge blemish in the Wonder-verse.

[Frontier]

I'm sorry but this sounds like a flimsy excuse to me. I can quote you chapter and verse in vivid detail why I dislike Gail Simone's run. There are a plethora of reasons with different levels to them. That's not what's happening here. Here we get vague stuff like boredom, or lack of scope, all the while conveniently forgetting plot points and story elements that betray those answers.

Gail at least wrote Donna well and memorably in her appearances in her run .

Think Trials had pretty legitimate criticisms aimed at it while it was coming out.

[Primal Slayer]

I'm sorry but this sounds like a flimsy excuse to me. I can quote you chapter and verse in vivid detail why I dislike Gail Simone's run. There are a plethora of reasons with different levels to them. That's not what's happening here. Here we get vague stuff like boredom, or lack of scope, all the while conveniently forgetting plot points and story elements that betray those answers.

Did you read my post? I did not say that i hated their run in the book. The lack of those 2 is a weak point for me and those story elements...especially with Donna is a fact. All anyone could muster up at the time was Pre-52 for Donna siding with the Bana.

You can quote specific points in Gails run, i can quote an entire run for my dislike of how Cassie/Donna were used.

Ive been commenting on their run since they started with both praise and criticism so lets not try to create a narrative of just putting them down for no reason

[PopQuezy]

I'm sorry but this sounds like a flimsy excuse to me. I can quote you chapter and verse in vivid detail why I dislike Gail Simone's run. There are a plethora of reasons with different levels to them. That's not what's happening here. Here we get vague stuff like boredom, or lack of scope, all the while conveniently forgetting plot points and story elements that contradict those answers.

But boredom and lack of scope aren't vague. Trial of the Amazons, which is their biggest event so far, was ultimately a failure. The foundational rules were often contradictory, i.e. anyone can enter the competition; however, only people nominated can participate. What? Which is it? It can't be both. The Trials were about finding a new guardian for Doom's Doorway while we literally saw three people one from each tribe defending Doom's Doorway. That is until the Trial also became about ruling all of the Amazons. The reason for the Esquecida participating didn't come until issue 3 or 4. Attuum was supposed to be a big villain but he wasn't seen until issue 4, and he was immediately replaced by a generic Chaos God. The death of Hippolyta made no sense. She kills herself to unite the Amazons, but they unite for a reason having to do nothing with her death. The first three issues are constantly setting up rules and stakes and relationships that ultimately go nowhere.

While they brought back classic villains, Image-Maker, Dr. Poison, and Professor Calculus are ultimately easily swappable goons. Duke of Deception, I liked the visual and the power upgrade, but he was a one-and-done. It's hard to be excited for these villains when there is just a lack of focus on crafting a strong and salient and memorable persona for these rogues. Rucka did a much better job for Godwatch. While I'm certain many will disagree, Robinson did a better job with Silver Swan. Hell even Fontana did a better job with Mayfly. Cloonrad did an awesome job with Dr. Psycho, but their other villains have been forgettable.

There's also a silliness with using milk as some evil concoction in order to get people to remember the power and glory of the Gods. That just feels generic and that is why I usually dislike for mythology to have too large a focus on Wonder Woman mythos.

I'm not saying they're terrible. They aren't. I love Siggy, and I like how they are incorporating the new Cheetah. I also love the characterization of Diana, Steve, and Etta. I just think their downfalls balance out with their strengths and sometimes, unfortunately, their downfalls outweigh their strengths.

[Gaius]

They appeared a decent amount pre-52. but their exclusion is always been a blemish after that and a huge blemish in the Wonder-verse.

Only if WW having a traditional sidekick is important to one.

[Primal Slayer]

Only if WW having a traditional sidekick is important to one.

They're part of the Wonder family and should be around just as much as anyone else. If she isnt important to a Wonder Girl then...they shouldn't be a representation of a Wonder.

[Gaius]

They're part of the Wonder family and should be around just as much as anyone else. If she isnt important to a Wonder Girl then...they shouldn't be a representation of a Wonder.

I meant more that the "Wonder Girl" concept has never been of too much interest/importance to me, or at least Diana have a traditional bog standard superhero sidekick. Stuff like Vanessa in Perez's run worked better for me than standard sidekick stuff. Donna's only been a decent-sized player in maybe two WW runs I've liked and Cassie only in parts of Rucka's first run, so I've never had too much attachment to them.

So I can't really ding Cloonan/Conrad for their use here.

[Frontier]

I meant more that the "Wonder Girl" concept has never been of too much interest/importance to me, or at least Diana have a traditional bog standard superhero sidekick. Stuff like Vanessa in Perez's run worked better for me than standard sidekick stuff. Donna's only been a decent-sized player in maybe two WW runs I've liked and Cassie only in parts of Rucka's first run, so I've never had too much attachment to them.

So I can't really ding Cloonan/Conrad for their use here.

Maybe there were more expectations because they were in Trial and in some promotional stuff or appeared during the big Diana return reveal issue.

[Stanlos]

In the anniversary issue wasn't there the introduction of this idea of displaced prior inhabitants of Paradise Island? Whatever became of that yarn?

[WonderScott]

I dropped these thoughts on #795 in an FB group I’m in:

“I really enjoyed the art and character design in this issue - some great panels.

I like Yara Flor as a character. Enjoyed her introductory series and voice as a character. She’s a welcome addition as a Wonder to me, so I enjoyed this team up with Diana, especially given her past with Eros.

Eros, the envoy of Hera in this issue, has always intrigued me as a character and his symbolism and powers to create mayhem in the lives of gods and mortals alike. He doesn’t disappoint in this issue and I’m intrigued how the other Olympians might be aligned - are they all with or are some of them against Hera’s plans? I do love that the gods are showing up in different forms.

A better issue than recent ones to me, where Diana, Yara, Steve, Siggy and Cheetah all played a part.

Not sure how I feel about Cheetah hanging with the ARGUS gang again… I really want her to have a wildly amazing turn as a villain in the title, but I guess her involvement here doesn’t preclude that either.

I really wish we had a Wonder architect in charge of the elements of Diana’s of Wonder World and Works (call me DC!), i.e. Hyperion showing up as a boss battle. The Titans (not those ones) tend to get used however and wherever. Are they behind Doom’s Doorway? Chilling on another planet? Monsterous forms directed by Hera? (This is all a minor quibble.)

A lot of this will play out in the upcoming Lazarus Planet event, so I’m curious how divinity and their style of magic will be altered.”

Something I think that’s essential for the title is to keep including plots and subplots that involve Steve, Etta, Siggy and Barbara (for however long she’s around) and get Diana connected with the team more. It gives the book a lift in conversations, character motives and styles, agreements, disagreements, different pairings of characters interacting and drama. They give Diana and the Wonder world depth when they get developed in relation to Diana and each other.

I wish C+C Writing Factory and team had another title to work with, because they’re trying to do a lot of Wonder World building in a limited amount of space. I appreciate what we’ve received so far, but it’s be great to another Sensational title for more Diana, her villains and her supporting characters.

[Perseus]

In the anniversary issue wasn't there the introduction of this idea of displaced prior inhabitants of Paradise Island? Whatever became of that yarn?

Nothing. Literally wasted our time with that one and the Hippolyta solo.

[bardkeep]

Cloonrad wrote possibly my favorite Wonder Woman moment ever. Like Rucka, Jimenez and Perez before them, they have in me a loyal fan for life.

Having read message board comments for years concerning what's best for Wonder Woman going forward, it's almost as if Cloonrad read them too and are responding accordingly. We have the full cast plus new favorites. All but forgotten classic villains have been brought back and revitalized. The Amazons are using their technological adavancement on a global scale. Wonder Woman herself isn't carrying a sword all the time or being "Warrior Woman". She's kind and loving, yet she has a new edge and is far more saavy than she's been in the past. There's also a cohesive plan about where her stories take her and a mirroring of real world politics done in a subtle way.

Therefore I'm at a loss as to where all the negativity about their run is coming from, but it seems to be a combination of an extreme dislike for Yara Flor and the fact it isn't Historia.

I like Yara so that has nothing to do with why I'm not into this run. And I've loved the Young Diana back-ups, which actively contradict the Historia origin of the Amazons, so that's not it either.

I don't think "boredom" is a non-specific complaint. It comes down to poor storytelling. I could tell you lots of issues I had with the story choices and characterization in Rucka's first run even before the IC tie-in nonsense (don't like how Diana was turned into Athena's soldier, don't like how humorless she was, don't like how he unceremoniously destroyed Phil Jimenez's reimagined Themyscira, don't like how much he militarized the Amazons, Veronica Cale's motivations were really one-note, really didn't like how he handled Cheetah, thought the underworld arc was a slog...). Still, ultimately it was all really exciting, interesting, and thought-provoking without betraying the spirit of the character and everything was masterfully woven together and well-considered, so it's possibly my all-time favorite run. Plus Rucka writes dialog like nobody's business and just knows how to grip you in a scene.

With Cloonrad, it all just feels like they're flying by the seat of their pants. Major plot threads get dropped without explanation (see: the whole Altuum thing), the smaller arcs like the Villainy Inc. arc have been totally forgettable with no real sense of tension or stakes, the characterization of the villains other than Dr. Psycho is nearly non-existent, and nothing ever keeps me on the edge of my seat waiting for the next issue. Trial of the Amazons was messy from the beginning, characters' actions made no sense, and in the end it all wound up feeling completely pointless other than bringing the tribes together. The second Nubia miniseries introduced a MASSIVE status quo shift by re-opening Themyscira to the outside world - not to mention all of the huge changes among the Amazons - and Cloonan and Conrad have done literally nothing with any of it, instead opting to spend a whole arc on some nonsense about Dr. Psycho's evil milk. Right now is the first time it's felt like build-up is actually leading to anything and it's only happening because they're getting pulled into the Lazarus Planet stuff.

I'm also not as fond of their Diana as you. Her voice is really inconsistent and I just don't feel her wisdom, compassion, or warmth. And her letting an entire factory full of regular people doing their jobs blow up without even trying to save any of them was so outrageously out of character that I had a hard time believing it happened. Love their Etta, Steve, and Siggy but I don't love how everything feels too "Diana and the Scooby Gang" - it never feels like she's really connecting with normal people. And I wouldn't really call Dr. Psycho as a very obvious Alex Jones stand-in subtle in terms of how it handles real-world politics.

IMO Orlando did a much better job of bringing everything together and it actually felt like he had things he wanted to do rather than just pulling ideas out of a hat and dropping them if he couldn't figure out where to take them.