New WW Creative Team: Becky Cloonan, Michael Conrad and Travis Moore

[Frontier]

They've said they'd like to use them but they also said in the interview above whether or not writers are allowed to use characters depends on the editors/creatives say for the books those characters fall under. Donna for the Titans, Cassie for whatever's planned with YJ.

Well, I hope that means something is in store for Cassie...

[I'm a Fish]

I'm probably not on the right side of history with this, but when we're adapting other culture's heroic figures, I'd prefer they reflect people of that culture. I'm fine with multicultural Amazons and such because they're an American riff on nebulously Greek mythology. That's groovy. Some of these characters are cultural touchstones, however, so it's a bit more delicate in my mind. You can argue some superheroes have reached that level (Superman, for example), but they're ours to change. Sigurd is a German hero and I feel he should reflect them, just as I'd feel Sun Wukong should be Chinese (if not a monkey as in the source text), Tezcatlipoca should be Aztec and so forth. American figures are our history and folklore to adapt as we see fit, but that of other cultures should probably be respected a little more.

For context, I'm of Greek ancestry. We typically don't show up in any media except to be a punchline about being hairy, obnoxiously loud assholes or old, hairy obnoxious waiters... or when discussing the Greek pantheon/mythology. We don't really get to be heroes that often (and 300 is decidedly not a good example of representation when it omits every other Greek at Thermopylae to fetishize 300 warlike Spartans). Everywhere else, we're just the other Italian. I've had to make my peace with seeing my family's heritage in Zues or Hercules and they're not exactly seen favorably under the modern eye. Nevertheless, we exist primarily in mythic figures, not new ones. Western media is content treating us like we went extinct thousands of years ago. Okay, Constantine Drakon was one, but you see my argument. If we're desperate, we try and claim Diana who is (at best) nebulously Greek, but more accurately an American fascination of Greek Culture wearing the trappings like a Halloween costume. If tomorrow we adapted Hercules in DC to be non-Greek, well, you see where I'm going with this. To the entire world, that's pretty much the face of my family's people and when we don't even get to see ourselves represented there it can sting a little. Brad Pitt being cast as Achilles sure didn't make me happy, I'll tell you that. I know that because I'm white this can also seem like sour grapes, but considering Germans mostly show up in American superhero comics with a red armband and heavy goosesteps, I do sympathize if they feel like one of their more positive heroes getting racebent bothers them.

Seriously, think for a moment which characters you know in DC that are of German ancestry and completely unrelated to anything pertaining to the nazis or Norse gods. If you can think of one, enlighten me because I cannot.

Just my two cents.

It doesn't make me angry, but it is disappointing. I do want to stress once more that I'm fine with stuff like Hamilton because that's our history as Americans, so I admit a double standard to some degree.

Being an American and Jewish will forever give me a bazar relationship with comics because it is the only medium where Jewish characters and writers are relatively common, but my culture is relatively unexplored due to the lingering of anti-Semitism (some of which has snuck it's way into comics rather recently, looking at you Marvel).

But it doesn't bother me (I mean, the anti-sematic art does, but not the lack of cultural representation). Comics were kind of built on the foundation of the Jewish/American experience, if the concept of Superman having a secret identity isn't a metaphor, I don't know what is. Even Wonder Woman herself had elements of Jewish mythology tinkered into her original origin, although I admit I am not sure if that was intentional or not, it really could have been a coincidence . Although, part of that original origin, the one in which she had been made out of clay, was later criticized by people who viewed her as a "soulless golem" a golem being a creature made out of clay that originated from Jewish folklore. So even if it wasn't Marston's intention to base her origin off Jewish folklore, it was later used against her none the less...

I'm not sure if that's part of why DC changed her origin, or if it was to update it and tie her more closely to Greek mythology. Since it wasn't changed until rather recently, I think it is more likely the latter. Most people don't even know the golem originates from Jewish folklore anymore TBH.

But again, none of it really bothers me. My criticism of Diana becoming Zeus' daughter are in no way tied to any Jewish folklore she might have had being taken away from her, I'm more so upset it was used against her. Also a lot of Jewish actors have been appearing as superheroes lately. So I don't feel like I have anything to complain about, especially in comics or the Superhero genre.

American culture is by-in-large a melting pot anyway, mixed up of many cultures. So when American's write characters from other mythology, the get Americanized in that aspect, if that makes sense.

[Gaius]

Well, I hope that means something is in store for Cassie...

Editorial Fiefdom and all that.

[I'm a Fish]

Editorial Fiefdom and all that.

I remember in that podcast they writers said there were editorial decisions that made no sense, and I'm like, was Wonder Woman kept away from Cassie one of them? Lol.

[AmiMizuno]

I honestly have no hope with DC. Why should we have hope when clearly DC editors are terrible to Diana make her so weak. They literally are okay with her not having her with Donna or Cassie. And yet Dick can be part of Titans and Batfam no problem. I think it's time to fact. They don't care anymore. Dc been going down hill and there is no hope. If they cared they would have shown her in a better light and allowed Diana to have her family even if they are in other books. All the other trinity allow this


The few times Diana can be good is generally is out of cannon. It's time for Dc to give up and share all their heroes because completely they lost respect for the characters. They can't keep Diana consistent or her cast consistent. Many other comic publishers can get away from shared universe. Dc should cut themselves off if they have no respect for themselves or the characters. They allow Yara and this new JL without thinking maybe we should allow the Titans or other well know people to head the new JL instead add new characters. Killing odd Superman has become such a bore. They really could have allowed Jon to find his own Path before becoming Superman. They don't need to kill him off. That or focus more on black label then the comics.

[John Venus]

They've said they'd like to use them but they also said in the interview above whether or not writers are allowed to use characters depends on the editors/creatives say for the books those characters fall under. Donna for the Titans, Cassie for whatever's planned with YJ.

Isn't there a Wonder Girl coming out soon?

[Perseus]

Isn't there a Wonder Girl coming out soon?

Different Wondergirl.

[Primal Slayer]

The day when Cassie is allowed back into the Wonder books on a reoccurring basis will be the day that DC actually surprises me. The Wonder family isnt allowed to be together in the same room that often.

[Gaius]

Isn't there a Wonder Girl coming out soon?

Yeah, though I’d be surprised if Cassie or Donna appear in major ways there.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Let's just hope that we haven't lost Artemis to the Bat-Books, that'd be the worse.

GAH! Don't say such things! I hadn't even considered such a frightening possibility!


With Cassie I admit its a bit of an odd situation because Bendis is considered a big deal and its unclear if he intends to use them for anything. I want to point out that the only reason why Captain Marvel/Shazam wasn't in anything aside from Geoff Johns Justice League for nine years was because Johns called dibs on the character and thus forbid any other creative from making use of the character until Johns had the free time to write the run he wanted to do.
Ive no idea if Bendis has that sort of pull over there, but its possible.

Yara is in a different situation as shes being introduced with her own ongoing. Between her and Nubia getting their own books this is probably the biggest chance the Wonder family has ever had in seeing a substantial Wonder team up.

Noooo idea what the status of Hippolyta will be with her in Justice League. DC can be weird about its editorial. That said, I can't recall the Justice League editors ever pulling that 'off limits' type stuff.

As for Donna....Yeah, odds are pretty crummy that were seeing her for more than a couple issues. She was created for the Titans books and is rarely ever viewed as a member of the Wonder Family in the eyes of editorial.

[Alpha]

GAH! Don't say such things! I hadn't even considered such a frightening possibility!


With Cassie I admit its a bit of an odd situation because Bendis is considered a big deal and its unclear if he intends to use them for anything. I want to point out that the only reason why Captain Marvel/Shazam wasn't in anything aside from Geoff Johns Justice League for nine years was because Johns called dibs on the character and thus forbid any other creative from making use of the character until Johns had the free time to write the run he wanted to do.
Ive no idea if Bendis has that sort of pull over there, but its possible.

I doubt it since Conner Kent is in Suicide Squad, Bart Allen has appeared in the new Flash comic and most significantly, Teen Lantern is in the new Green Lantern book by Geoffrey Thorne. Only Cassie and Tim are missing (I think but I'm not reading the bat books).

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I doubt it since Conner Kent is in Suicide Squad, Bart Allen has appeared in the new Flash comic and most significantly, Teen Lantern is in the new Green Lantern book by Geoffrey Thorne. Only Cassie and Tim are missing (I think but I'm not reading the bat books).

Oh good point! Come to think of it the July solicits have Tim popping up in 'Batman: Urban Legends' so yeah, Cassie should be readily available.

EDIT:
Oh and Jinny Hex had that one shot, and Princess Amythyst had a mini series.

[Robanker]

Being an American and Jewish will forever give me a bazar relationship with comics because it is the only medium where Jewish characters and writers are relatively common, but my culture is relatively unexplored due to the lingering of anti-Semitism (some of which has snuck it's way into comics rather recently, looking at you Marvel).

But it doesn't bother me (I mean, the anti-sematic art does, but not the lack of cultural representation). Comics were kind of built on the foundation of the Jewish/American experience, if the concept of Superman having a secret identity isn't a metaphor, I don't know what is. Even Wonder Woman herself had elements of Jewish mythology tinkered into her original origin, although I admit I am not sure if that was intentional or not, it really could have been a coincidence . Although, part of that original origin, the one in which she had been made out of clay, was later criticized by people who viewed her as a "soulless golem" a golem being a creature made out of clay that originated from Jewish folklore. So even if it wasn't Marston's intention to base her origin off Jewish folklore, it was later used against her none the less...

I'm not sure if that's part of why DC changed her origin, or if it was to update it and tie her more closely to Greek mythology. Since it wasn't changed until rather recently, I think it is more likely the latter. Most people don't even know the golem originates from Jewish folklore anymore TBH.

But again, none of it really bothers me. My criticism of Diana becoming Zeus' daughter are in no way tied to any Jewish folklore she might have had being taken away from her, I'm more so upset it was used against her. Also a lot of Jewish actors have been appearing as superheroes lately. So I don't feel like I have anything to complain about, especially in comics or the Superhero genre.

American culture is by-in-large a melting pot anyway, mixed up of many cultures. So when American's write characters from other mythology, the get Americanized in that aspect, if that makes sense.

I'm just glad that I wasn't called a racist. I was hoping to explain my thoughts in a manner that portrayed them well and hopefully it landed.

I don't claim my heritage that much, frankly, so I don't go out of my way looking for representation but I do notice that as a person of Greek heritage, we only exist as links to mythological figures. It's why Gal's casting doesn't really bother me much* (I'll touch on it later) even though DC is trying very hard to make her as Greek adjacent as possible. With respect to my heritage, they just thought "she has an accent and her complexion is vaguely olive, that's enough, let's break for lunch." Over this sort of thing, I don't get too bent out of shape but I do see that representation is still mostly tokenism for a lot of cultures. I can't speak to others, but at least with my family's people we exist solely as assholes in togas or stuff related to that and our customs and names after that point just don't matter. It's gotten to where when someone actually does mention something, it sticks out like a sore thumb because, my lord, someone remembered we exist. A good example is Pete Tomasi, who once mentioned pastitsio in a Nightwing comic. It's a pasta that's not served at most Greek fast foods so the laymen wouldn't know what it is. It took me right out of the book because it was so jarring to see what is effectively a semi-deep cut. It should have brought me some measure of happiness but instead it was the most unfamiliar feeling-- my grandparents were people too! We exist and not just as the alpha stage for Rome!

It's why I've understood why representation matters so much to other people. Of my family, I claim my heritage the least. We're white but I especially am a bit more WASP-passing than most, save for my nose. If asked, I always just say I'm an American unless someone something contextually makes my heritage relevant. It's kind of a non-issue to me if I'm being honest, but this subject does necessitate it. Something that insignificant-- the mention of a goddamn pasta dish-- was a shock because until that point, I hadn't realized that in the United States, my family's history is essentially in-line with Arthurian legend. People are familiar with a fantasy story several times older than the history of our nation, but that's it-- we may as well be a part of Skyrim for all it's worth. Togas, monsters, Gods, lots of sex and tragedy-- most of the time in the same story! But most people seem to think we eat only gyros and feta cheese. So much so that the mention of a dish my family actually makes at home took me out of the book because, my god, someone remembered we're people.

Yes, I'm overreacting a bit, but that jarring experience did make me think a lot about people who have it much worse. I can't imagine what it's like to be other less-visually represented cultures. While Greek by heritage, I'm still a straight white American male. I see lots of guys similar to me in comics so on some level I'm still represented in a generic sense. Other demographics have only recently started to get that sensation so I think it's important that when adapting their heroes and myths, we represent them relatively accurately. Of course it's a superhero comic so things will be outrageous, but at the very least I want those characters to physically resemble the cultures they're borrowed from.

That said, I can't claim Diana because the way DC tries to make her represent my family's culture is only further part of the problem. Making her Zues's daughter bothers me in a lot of ways, primarily creatively because I find it less interesting and it takes more away from her thematically, but frankly the more they try to pile on "she's Greek, look how many togas she has," the more it feels like my family are just a section at Spirit Halloween for the United States. It does suck a bit, too, that they're trying harder and harder to connect her to Greek mythology and yet when it came time to cast her, they settled on an Iranian woman while doubling down on the Greek mythology because, well, "she's foreign so they won't know the difference." Even the one movie people think is representative of us, 300, stars a Scottish actor as Leonidas. That said, I think Gal is a fine Wonder Woman. I genuinely like her in the role, especially the on-screen chemistry she shares with Chris Pine. I just wish they wouldn't be trying so hard to make the audience think the character is Greek when they don't have an interest in casting any Greek women as prominent Amazons (seriously, NONE of them are. Gal's the only one who bears even a physical resemblance). It kind of sucks, but again, the Amazons as depicted in DC are pretty much just American ideas in togas so I don't expect much.

[SiegePerilous02]

I'm just glad that I wasn't called a racist. I was hoping to explain my thoughts in a manner that portrayed them well and hopefully it landed.

Oh definitely not, you laid out your points very well and I think you have more cred than most of us here to discuss the Greek stuff.

Though as for the Amazons, aren't they not actually Greek anyway? Didn't the myths treat them as vague "foreigners", an "other" to be feared?

[I'm a Fish]

Oh definitely not, you laid out your points very well and I think you have more cred than most of us here to discuss the Greek stuff.

Though as for the Amazons, aren't they not actually Greek anyway? Didn't the myths treat them as vague "foreigners", an "other" to be feared?

The Amazon's of Greek myth is based off of the warrior women of Scythian and Sarmatian culture. Neither culture was man hatting, nor did they live separately from men.

The Scythian people nomadic who occupied much of central Eurasia. They were renowned for their equestrian skills and use of composite bows that were sometimes barbed and poisoned. Nearly every adult, both men and women, were trained in both the art of combat on horseback. 20% of Scythian warrior graves on the lower Don and lower Volga housed women who were burred with their weapons and armor. They gained notoriety as aggressive warriors who combat skills where so impressive that it was said no people in Europe or Asia could push back their assaults without outside aid.

The Sarmatians were part of the wider Scythian culture, and they mainly occupied areas around Centurial Ukraine and Southern Russia.

Both cultures are of Iranian decent and mostly speakers of Iranian languages. Sarmatians where described as having a Caucasoid appearance with and blonde hair. However, because of how widespread the greater Scythian culture was, they were quite ethically diverse.