New WW Creative Team: Becky Cloonan, Michael Conrad and Travis Moore

[Gaius]

She's on there twice, so I figure something is up.

If anyone can make sense of this, it's Johns .

The only WW plot point I was Johns making sense of is how we dropkick Jason into Comic Book Purgatory.

I also totally forgot they started it in #750, but never really followed up on it except to say that she had memories of her past lives.

Which, fine, she can have memories of stuff from the Golden Age, just leave her modern origin alone. Three wildly different origins in 10 years is way to many.

Plus it get's to the point where it's like, how does her supporting cast and villains factor into this? Are there multiple version's of Steve and Etta throughout history? Ugh...I just won't think about it till we get there.

Yeah, this is why I doubt DC would use this to cleanup Donna's origin since I don't even think they're gonna put much thought into how this affects characters like Steve or Etta.

[Largo161]

Ive read the issue this is related too and context fills in alot of possible details. The page before this is Max Degaton (nazi time traveler) revealing that he is planning to use time travel to screw over the superheroes with him in this page adding "Alot of them" With this being what the one shot ends on.

The issue itself also establishes that Green Arrow and Speedy WERE active in the Golden Age and its the same Ollie and Roy from the modern age, but that they wound up in the golden age because time travel and spent years in the past before returning to the present.

So yeah, any confusion will probably be explained with time travel.

If anybody’s wondering why comic readership keeps shrinking...

What I’m reading on these forums makes me think DC is just publishing fanfic so writers can write their personal head-canon into existence.

[Frontier]

The only WW plot point I was Johns making sense of is how we dropkick Jason into Comic Book Purgatory.

He already dropped that like a hot potato .

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Where is this from ?

Star Girl spring break I think its called? came out today



Aside from that one page it really has nothing to do with Wonder Woman whose like, two out of fifty characters there

[Artemisfanboy]

The only WW plot point I was Johns making sense of is how we dropkick Jason into Comic Book Purgatory.



Yeah, this is why I doubt DC would use this to cleanup Donna's origin since I don't even think they're gonna put much thought into how this affects characters like Steve or Etta.

They already did. Orlando's run retcons Diana back to having rescued Donna as a child and taking Donna back to Themyscira where she and the other Amazons trained her. Endless Winter has Donna remembering Hippolyta telling her bed time stories about the Frost King. Am I the only person who read and payed attention to this? At the very least the part of Rucka's run about Diana not being able to return to Themycira for the first 10 or 15 years of her career needs to be discarded for this to work (possibly more if her generation has been aged as much as I think). At this point your asking for them to go back on fixing Donna, and for what? Can somebody explain objective terms why Rucka's run is more important than Donna having her proper origin as Diana's younger adopted sister? Why should Donna have to have her corrected origin sacrificed, and how does benefit to Diana to justify it?

Orlando's run also had his revamped Armageddon as the grand daughter of the original from the 70's WWII era stories.

[I'm a Fish]

They already did. Orlando's run retcons Diana back to having rescued Donna as a child and taking Donna back to Themyscira where she and the other Amazons trained her. Endless Winter has Donna remembering Hippolyta telling her bed time stories about the Frost King. Am I the only person who read and payed attention to this? At the very least the part of Rucka's run about Diana not being able to return to Themycira for the first 10 or 15 years of her career needs to be discarded for this to work (possibly more if Dick's generation has been aged as much as I think). At this point your asking for them to go back on fixing Donna, and for what? Can somebody explain objective terms why Rucka's run is more important than Donna having her proper origin as Diana's younger adopted sister? Why should Donna have to have her corrected origin sacrificed, and how does benefit to Diana to justify it?

Orlando's run also had his revamped Armageddon as the grand daughter of the original from the 70's WWII era stories.

Because Donna's origin doesn't impact every other character in Wonder Woman's mythos. You change Wonder Woman, you change everyone.

I like Donna, but her origin has never been important to me (since half the time I don't know which origin it is). Donna's always been closer to the Titans anyway. Did she even show up in a Wonder Woman book before Jimenez?

I love Diana and Donna's sisterly relationship, but you can have that without tossing Diana back to 1939. And if what Orlando did creates a plot hole in Rucka's run, whatever, it's comics, plot holes are everywhere. But creating a plot hole is not the same as retconning all of Year One.


Plus I guess I have to go back and reread this because I don't remember any of this with Donna.

[Artemisfanboy]

Because Donna's origin doesn't impact every other character in Wonder Woman's mythos. You change Wonder Woman, you change everyone.

I like Donna, but her origin has never been important to me (since half the time I don't know which origin it is). Donna's always been closer to the Titans anyway. Did she even show up in a Wonder Woman book before Jimenez?

I love Diana and Donna's sisterly relationship, but you can have that without tossing Diana back to 1939. And if what Orlando did creates a plot hole in Rucka's run, whatever, it's comics, plot holes are everywhere. But creating a plot hole is not the same as retconning all of Year One.


Plus I guess I have to go back and reread this because I don't remember any of this with Donna.

I don't see Rucka's as being definitive nor good enough in this case to argue against it's replacement or retconning. Nor do I see how Diana's Origin being retconned back to the Golden age threatens to upend everything. I don't think it would be anywhere near as bad as some here think fear. I remain open minded and willing to give a Golden age Diana origin a chance. But in any case I feel compelled to protect what has been done to fix Donna.

[Dr. Poison]

If so does this mean they are throwing out her Rebirth Year One origin?

Edit: Is this the Photo? There are two Wonder Women, but there are also two Allen Scott and Wildcat's in the background...

I'm so confused already, LMAO.

Edit: But since they are doing a thing about having Hippolyta actually be on the Justice League throughout history now, it could very well be Hippolyta. Or Diana from another Earth? Since they have multiple version of the same character in the poster.

The somewhat odd thing about this art is that it depicts the Earth 2 Huntress(Helena Wayne) but it doesn't show the E2 Superman, Batman, or Robin. One of the two Wonder Women and Power Girls could be from E2 though.

[SiegePerilous02]

They already did. Orlando's run retcons Diana back to having rescued Donna as a child and taking Donna back to Themyscira where she and the other Amazons trained her. Endless Winter has Donna remembering Hippolyta telling her bed time stories about the Frost King. Am I the only person who read and payed attention to this? At the very least the part of Rucka's run about Diana not being able to return to Themycira for the first 10 or 15 years of her career needs to be discarded for this to work (possibly more if her generation has been aged as much as I think). At this point your asking for them to go back on fixing Donna, and for what? Can somebody explain objective terms why Rucka's run is more important than Donna having her proper origin as Diana's younger adopted sister? Why should Donna have to have her corrected origin sacrificed, and how does benefit to Diana to justify it?

Orlando's run also had his revamped Armageddon as the grand daughter of the original from the 70's WWII era stories.

Because there's nothing about Year One that would break if we insert Donna back into it, which is what DC should have done to fix her. All it would take would be some "deleted scenes" explaining where Donna was on the Themyscira segments, and of those the only one where her absence is noticeable is when they are all seeing her off (that could be fixed with a minor retcon of maybe having her own private farewell with Diana before that). She wouldn't be in the scenes where Hippolyta is meeting with her council, or with Diana and the older girls star gazing under Areto anyway.

It shouldn't be upended because it's a good story, Diana needs stability, being tied to WWII along with the JSA isn't very necessary for her to make this worth it, and Diana being the one to rescue Donna never even made sense for the timeline in pre-COIE days anyway. What matters is that Donna is an orphaned girl who ended up adopted by Hippolyta, who rescues her is secondary. Hermes could do it while Diana is around 13-14. Getting rid of Year One instead of just tweaking it with minor retcons to include her is preferable to screwing up Diana's continuity more. The ideal should be to streamline Donna so she fits in with what is there, not warp the WW franchise to accommodate her. Especially as she is essentially a "guest" from the Titans franchise.

[Artemisfanboy]

Because there's nothing about Year One that would break if we insert Donna back into it, which is what DC should have done to fix her. All it would take would be some "deleted scenes" explaining where Donna was on the Themyscira segments, and of those the only one where her absence is noticeable is when they are all seeing her off (that could be fixed with a minor retcon of maybe having her own private farewell with Diana before that). She wouldn't be in the scenes where Hippolyta is meeting with her council, or with Diana and the older girls star gazing under Areto anyway.

It shouldn't be upended because it's a good story, Diana needs stability, being tied to WWII along with the JSA isn't very necessary for her to make this worth it, and Diana being the one to rescue Donna never even made sense for the timeline in pre-COIE days anyway. What matters is that Donna is an orphaned girl who ended up adopted by Hippolyta, who rescues her is secondary. Hermes could do it while Diana is around 13-14. Getting rid of Year One instead of just tweaking it with minor retcons to include her is preferable to screwing up Diana's continuity more. The ideal should be to streamline Donna so she fits in with what is there, not warp the WW franchise to accommodate her. Especially as she is essentially a "guest" from the Titans franchise.

I agree that your proposes to try and retcon Donna into Year One would be satisfactory, but the point is Year One and Rucka's run would need to be Retconned in some way to make Donna work, whether that be through trying to say she was on the island or by discarding Diana not being able to return to Themyscira. And I'll agree that neither set of retcons requires Diana's origin to be moved back to the Golden age. Nonetheless, I'm afraid that if DC does decided to to back track on Diana's new origin they will not have surgical mindset necessary to retcon Year One to accommodate Donna and Donna could end up where she was before Orlando fixed her.

[SiegePerilous02]

I agree that your proposes to try and retcon Donna into Year One would be satisfactory, but the point is Year One and Rucka's run will need to be Retconned in some way to make Donna work, whether that be through trying to say she was on the island or by discarding Diana not being able to return to Themyscira. And I'll agree that neither set of retcons requires Diana's origin to be moved back to the Golden age. Nonetheless, I'm afraid that if DC does decided to to back track on Diana's new origin they will not have surgical mindset necessary to retcon Year One to accommodate Donna and Donna could end up where she was before Orlando fixed her.

I don't think the "cannot return to Themyscira" element needs to be discarded. Donna can leave to follow shortly after Year One to become Wonder Girl and just live with her, not returning until access is restored.

Especially since when she's a legal adult, she's just going to spend most of her time living in New York with Terry anyway

[I'm a Fish]

I agree that your proposes to try and retcon Donna into Year One would be satisfactory, but the point is Year One and Rucka's run would need to be Retconned in some way to make Donna work, whether that be through trying to say she was on the island or by discarding Diana not being able to return to Themyscira. And I'll agree that neither set of retcons requires Diana's origin to be moved back to the Golden age. Nonetheless, I'm afraid that if DC does decided to to back track on Diana's new origin they will not have surgical mindset necessary to retcon Year One to accommodate Donna and Donna could end up where she was before Orlando fixed her.

Knowing DC, if they do completely change Diana's origin again they won't mention Donna until years later when they realize they forgot to make her fit in Wonder Woman's mythos and give her another convoluted backstory to squeeze her in.

[Artemisfanboy]

I don't think the "cannot return to Themyscira" element needs to be discarded. Donna can leave to follow shortly after Year One to become Wonder Girl and just live with her, not returning until access is restored.

Especially since when she's a legal adult, she's just going to spend most of her time living in New York with Terry anyway

Depends if we want to keep the flashbacks and outline for Donna's Origin in Orlando's run as depicted. You might actually be able to improve on Donna's orign from Orlando by removing the part where Diana rescued Donna from someone who intended to use her as a weapon. Regardless, some kind of retconning was necessary, and I'm not sure of DC being able to change their mind without messing things up again.

Knowing DC, if they do completely change Diana's origin again they won't mention Donna until years later when they realize they forgot to make her fit in Wonder Woman's mythos and give her another convoluted backstory to squeeze her in.

Orlando seem to write his origin for Donna with the new origin for Diana in mind. so for now at least there's some consistency. If anything, your statement reinforces my fears about how delicate this situation is.

[John Venus]

I love the JSA and as I said in the JSA thread, if there is any character from the Trinity who can still fit in with the team, it's Wonder Woman. I'm probably one of the few who also likes Hippolyta as the Golden Age Wonder Woman origin.

That said, I will wait and see how this new JSA relaunch works out before making any decisions. As some posters have said, the background is largely symbolic, it's DC acknowledging past iterations of the JSA.

I love Rucka's second run and I agree that it's too early to throw it out but there is stuff from his run that I've grown cold on;
-too much emphasis on Steve/Diana (I like Steve but I think the romance came at the exception of Diana's other relationships).
-Diana being cut off entirely from Paradise Island unable to go back and losing her immortality. It's a bad deal, limits her story potential and harms characters like Donna Troy from being integrated into Diana's world.
-trying too hard to center Cale as Diana's arch enemy. She already has a unique archenemy, no need to wedge in an thinly veiled female Lex Luthor into the story.

The smart thing to do would be to work around these changes like how Steve Orlando and G Willow Wilson did and build up from there. No hard reboots, just soft retcons and some slight revamps.

[I'm a Fish]

I don't see Rucka's as being definitive nor good enough in this case to argue against it's replacement or retconning. Nor do I see how Diana's Origin being retconned back to the Golden age threatens to upend everything. I don't think it would be anywhere near as bad as some here think fear. I remain open minded and willing to give a Golden age Diana origin a chance. But in any case I feel compelled to protect what has been done to fix Donna.

It would upend all of her villains as well as Steve and Etta. You can't have modern day Steve and Etta anymore, (unless they become Legacy character somehow) or she met them 60 years after arriving in mans-world, and Steve never had the plane crash.

Cheetah's origin would also get retconned. Johns was the one who started the "Barbara is Diana's first friend" aspect, which he would probably want to continue. And I know Barbara's his favorite so he'd probably drag her back to WWII some extent. Barbara's Cheetah is immortal so it could work.

For most of her other villains you'd have to go the Legacy route or have them be newer villains to the established continuity. Cale's origin would need retconning as well unless she's erased, and by extension Dr. Cyber and Dr. Poison. You could easily do the Legacy route with Poison though.

So you'd somehow have to create the illusion of 80 years of history when there isn't any. Unless you make all of her comics cannon again, which would be a mess.

So either they would have to completely reboot everything or fit it in some other way, since in and after issue #750 there are still plot points that directly mention events that happened in Rebirth. And since WW Rebirth itself is build on the shaky ground of Nu52 that would put a confusing situation on top of another confusing situation. Rebirth turned parts of Nu52 into some sort of a fever dream and sort-of pulled it off, but a fever dream on top of a fever dream sounds like a bad idea.

So yeah, just leave Year One with some minor tweaks would be the best route for me. It's comics so I expect soft reboots. They can also make it so Diana has her past lives memories but the continuity she lives in is Rebirth.

I love the JSA and as I said in the JSA thread, if there is any character from the Trinity who can still fit in with the team, it's Wonder Woman. I'm probably one of the few who also likes Hippolyta as the Golden Age Wonder Woman origin.

That said, I will wait and see how this new JSA relaunch works out before making any decisions. As some posters have said, the background is largely symbolic, it's DC acknowledging past iterations of the JSA.

I love Rucka's second run and I agree that it's too early to throw it out but there is stuff from his run that I've grown cold on;
-too much emphasis on Steve/Diana (I like Steve but I think the romance came at the exception of Diana's other relationships).
-Diana being cut off entirely from Paradise Island unable to go back and losing her immortality. It's a bad deal, limits her story potential and harms characters like Donna Troy from being integrated into Diana's world.
-trying too hard to center Cale as Diana's arch enemy. She already has a unique archenemy, no need to wedge in an thinly veiled female Lex Luthor into the story.

The smart thing to do would be to work around these changes like how Steve Orlando and G Willow Wilson did and build up from there. No hard reboots, just soft retcons and some slight revamps.

Hey, I'd take Hippolyta as Golden Age Wonder Woman over the continuity bomb it would cause if Diana first arrived in 1939.

I agree with your points too about his second Run, especially with Cale. A billionaire in a business suit just isn't as fun as a were-cheetah, especially when your protagonist is a Amazonian demi-god princess.