QUEEN CLEA: Are you a fan of her look?

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think there is a real need to take Clea (or any superhero or villain) 100% seriously.

Superheroes are inherently silly, and sometimes when you try to hard to run from that instead of embracing/owning it, it just gets dumber. See what they've turned Batman into over the years.

[Konja7]

You may not take her seriously but that doesn't mean no one else does. Once she crushes your skull or impales you with her trident what she was wearing while doing so wouldn't matter much anyway. What matters is you were caught off guard because you were busy thinking she's not dressed professionally enough.

I don't agree these characters dress in that way to distract, because they almost never use in that way.

However, I agree that her suit won't make Clea less serious.

I mean Superhero suits usually don't look so serious, but fans still take them serious enough.

[Konja7]

I don't think there is a real need to take Clea (or any superhero or villain) 100% seriously.

Superheroes are inherently silly, and sometimes when you try to hard to run from that instead of embracing/owning it, it just gets dumber. See what they've turned Batman into over the years.

Batman is one of the most popular comic characters and best sellers. So, he isn't the best example.

[Psy-lock]

I'm not so sure about that. We see figures of Greek Mythology pop up frequently in non-WW books with no reference to WW. And if it's such a big deal, just make Venturia it's own thing away from Atlantis.

One way it could be done is by making Venturia into another lost tribe of the Amazons. Either they developed a technology that allows them to live underwater or it could be the blessing of the water gods. Though I'm not particularly keen on adding more evil Amazons.

[Gaius]

One way it could be done is by making Venturia into another lost tribe of the Amazons. Either they developed a technology that allows them to live underwater or it could be the blessing of the water gods. Though I'm not particularly keen on adding more evil Amazons.

Yeah, give DC an inch on evil Amazons and they take a mile.

[PopQuezy]

I don't think there is a real need to take Clea (or any superhero or villain) 100% seriously.

Superheroes are inherently silly, and sometimes when you try to hard to run from that instead of embracing/owning it, it just gets dumber. See what they've turned Batman into over the years.

The Dark Knight, Joker, Wonder Woman, and Black Panther show that statement to not be true. There is a way to remain true to the material while taking it seriously and with gravitas. The general public has also shown multiple times that they respond well to the mix of real-world hardships as filtered through comic book worlds.

I also think it's odd how some people - I'm not saying you, Siege, since I can't remember if you have argued this or not - say they want Queen Clea to be a major threat for Wonder Woman. They say she is a great character to explore misandry, and we often talk about the real world injustices that Wonder Woman has or should explore - sexual assault, racism, sexism, misogyny, forgiveness, etc. Now, the argument is that superheroes and villains should not be taken "100% seriously." Well, which is it? If they should be used to explore real-world themes and oppressions, then that requires their portrayal and motivations be taken equally seriously by the writers and the audience.

[SiegePerilous02]

Batman is one of the most popular comic characters and best sellers. So, he isn't the best example.

Ultra serious Batman takes, at least in the comics, are often quite dumb. Yeah he sells a lot, but to an increasingly niche audience and often appeals to the worst types of fanboys.

Even among mainstream releases, Nolan Batman appealed to people but BvS Batman didn't appeal to most.

The Dark Knight, Joker, Wonder Woman, and Black Panther show that statement to not be true. There is a way to remain true to the material while taking it seriously and with gravitas. The general public has also shown multiple times that they respond well to the mix of real-world hardships as filtered through comic book worlds.

I also think it's odd how some people - I'm not saying you, Siege, since I can't remember if you have argued this or not - say they want Queen Clea to be a major threat for Wonder Woman. They say she is a great character to explore misandry, and we often talk about the real world injustices that Wonder Woman has or should explore - sexual assault, racism, sexism, misogyny, forgiveness, etc. Now, the argument is that superheroes and villains should not be taken "100% seriously." Well, which is it? If they should be used to explore real-world themes and oppressions, then that requires their portrayal and motivations be taken equally seriously by the writers and the audience.

It can be both, and is probably a requirement in order to sell these characters. There are other fictional works that explore the topics you mentioned, but they can do it without needing to also depict a bunch of people in silly costumes beating each other up and are probably better executed because of it. It's possible to give these topics serious exploration with people dressed up in brightly colored costumes with big logos on their chest, but more often than not it's pretty tedious and sometimes insulting.

Clea can be a competent villain who acts as a threat to Wonder Woman while we also accept the fact that she's a fantastical, campy villain in a fantastical/campy setting. These days, in order to take a villain more "seriously," it means how badly can they physically hurt the hero and how many bodies they pile up. The Joker is less easy to take seriously now that he's a ridiculous slasher villain than he was when he tried to tie Batman to an exploding birthday cake. I'd rather just accept the fact that Clea is a campy villain fighting a character designed to appeal mainly to children.

[Pinsir]

They need to keep her sexy.

[Nyssane]

Well, which is it?

Why are the two mutually exclusive for you?

[Gaius]

Her outfit in the 40's did have straps. Actually, I think the red and green color scheme also was a bit more striking.





I'm not so sure about that. We see figures of Greek Mythology pop up frequently in non-WW books with no reference to WW. And if it's such a big deal, just make Venturia it's own thing away from Atlantis.

Could work though I think the gold/green works fine also.

[Koriand'r]

I don't agree these characters dress in that way to distract, because they almost never use in that way.

However, I agree that her suit won't make Clea less serious.

I mean Superhero suits usually don't look so serious, but fans still take them serious enough.

I don't think that's why the majority dress that way. I'm saying what would happen if someone in their world took the time to calculate the amount of skin shown, while simultaneously seeing them as harmless because of what they're wearing.

[Koriand'r]

I'd add some over-the-shoulder straps on the bra to make it look more like a top but I'm mostly fine with it. I like the headdress.

Why does she need over the shoulder straps? She can't have a wardrobe malfunction. She's a drawn image, there's no way her bra is falling off unless an artist wants it to and we all know that's not happening in Wonder Woman's book.

[Dr. Poison]

I like the Phil Jimenez's redesign best. The original looks a little too Christmasy.

[PopQuezy]

Why are the two mutually exclusive for you?

I never said they were. What annoys me is when someone - me in this regard - criticizes a particular aspect of a comic book narrative, and the response is that superheroes are for "children" thus it shouldn't be taken seriously. Superheroes have always been political, always been a form of propaganda, and they haven't been for "children" at least since the mid 90s when I started reading them and Ms. Marvel was dealing with her alcoholism.

As for them being mutually exclusive, they obviously are not. There are tons of lines that target various demographics. However, in the case of Queen Clea, I assumed we were speaking specifically of the mainline of Wonder Woman books and not one targeting young children, tweens, or teens. Thus, if you want adult human beings to take the character seriously including any concepts or themes the author wants to explore with the character, her relationship with humanity, and her relationship to Wonder Woman, there is a certain gravity that character must hold in order for these themes to be properly showcased to the audience.

A metal bra doesn't mean it would be impossible for people to take her seriously; however, we also can't pretend that male characters and female characters are entering the comic sphere on equal ground. It's already harder for women to be taken seriously in comics, it's already harder for female villains to be taken seriously in comics, it's already difficult for writers to give Wonder Woman the same level of nuanced writing they so freely give Batman, so why make it more difficult for Clea to be taken seriously as a character by given her a costume that's an extra - and pointless - barrier for entry. Clea is not an iconic character nor does she have an iconic look. An appropriate revamp that could still make her sexy, powerful, and yes, even a appropriately vampy, would be beneficial for the audience, the character, the author, and yes, the Wonder mythos.

[SiegePerilous02]

I never said they were. What annoys me is when someone - me in this regard - criticizes a particular aspect of a comic book narrative, and the response is that superheroes are for "children" thus it shouldn't be taken seriously. Superheroes have always been political, always been a form of propaganda, and they haven't been for "children" at least since the mid 90s when I started reading them and Ms. Marvel was dealing with her alcoholism.

As for them being mutually exclusive, they obviously are not. There are tons of lines that target various demographics. However, in the case of Queen Clea, I assumed we were speaking specifically of the mainline of Wonder Woman books and not one targeting young children, tweens, or teens. Thus, if you want adult human beings to take the character seriously including any concepts or themes the author wants to explore with the character, her relationship with humanity, and her relationship to Wonder Woman, there is a certain gravity that character must hold in order for these themes to be properly showcased to the audience.

A metal bra doesn't mean it would be impossible for people to take her seriously; however, we also can't pretend that male characters and female characters are entering the comic sphere on equal ground. It's already harder for women to be taken seriously in comics, it's already harder for female villains to be taken seriously in comics, it's already difficult for writers to give Wonder Woman the same level of nuanced writing they so freely give Batman, so why make it more difficult for Clea to be taken seriously as a character by given her a costume that's an extra - and pointless - barrier for entry. Clea is not an iconic character nor does she have an iconic look. An appropriate revamp that could still make her sexy, powerful, and yes, even a appropriately vampy, would be beneficial for the audience, the character, the author, and yes, the Wonder mythos.

The adult fans who read Big Two comics lap up the Death Metal stuff and treat Batman Who Laughs seriously even though it's the dumbest thing ever. Superheroes have always been political or have messages, often times kind of incidentally, but they are first and foremost entertainment and often times the stuff aimed at kids and teens, or is family friendly, is more thoughtful than the mainstream stuff that revolves around big, empty events. Even if its just in their capacity to present likeable characters. Marston's comics are dated in multiple ways (including being racist and sexist), but for what they are/the time they came out, they often provide more interesting things to examine than the average Big Two comic these days which is just explosions and people hitting each other. And those were way more cartoony than what we have now, but they are easier to accept as entertainment that has some value. BTAS, when it was on its A-game, was similarly smarter and telling better character driven stories than what we typically get in the Batman comics aimed at the adults in today's comic market.

DC is heavily skewed towards having only fanservice femme fatale villains, so Clea shouldn't be updated alone. ALL her female rogues need to be fleshed out and given focus and offer a variety of character types and visual styles. Cheetah should be tragic body horror/uncanny valley, Veronica should be beautiful but conservatively dressed, Giganta should be beefy and muscular and wear a practical outfit, Dr. Poison should be covered head to toe in her androgynous mask and trench coat, Hypnota could be similarly androgynous or even non-binary, Cyber should be an android, Blue Snowman should wear her goofy and bulky armor, and Circe should have a variety of looks that range from fully practical to vampy, etc. As long as they are not going overboard with the cheesecake, Clea showing skin in a vampy way isn't going to be the end of the world as long as they do not treat all WW villains that way. And since she and Ptra are evil mirror images of Hippolyta and Diana respectively, like Hippolyta she can have a range of looks and the classic design can be only one of them. Even if it is the only one, she shows as much (if less) skin than Ivy and Harley typically do and people accept them as competent and dangerous.